Difference between revisions of "Talk:'s-Hertogenbosch"

Revision as of 15:42, June 15, 2012

Should be merged into some other article, such as The Netherlands. Appears to have been created only because of it's odd spelling: it begins with a punctuation mark. --Ed Poor ^Talk 14:37, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

kind of weird to start an article with a punctuation mark well, it's a quirk of the Dutch language: look at The Hague a.k.a. 's Gravenshage, or the 't Hooft operator in theoretical physics. But while Den Haag is the official name of 's Gravenshage, with Den Bosch and 's Hertogenbosch it is the other way around.

So the move is akin to redirecting New York to The Big Apple.

And Den Bosch just means The Forest, not The Duke's Forest - Hertog / Herzog is duke. The 's is the relict of the article indicating the genitive: Des Hertogens Bosch

On the web-site of 's Hertogenbosch, you won't find the informal name Den Bosch prominently on display: http://www.s-hertogenbosch.nl/

AugustO 14:58, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

You want to take charge of our Dutch geography articles? --Ed Poor ^Talk 15:21, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

That's too big a task (and too desolate a field, I'm afraid). I'm just correcting errors where I find them. AugustO 15:25, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

• the capital of the province of Noord-Brabant is usually called "Den Bosch," but the full, official name is " 's-Hertogenbosch " (The Duke's Forest.) [1]

So if you want to mention the official name, go ahead. (Also, it's more like calling the army's main training college "West Point", when it has a longer and more official name that is hardly ever used. It's not like calling New York the Big Apple. I live in New York and hardly ever hear that. Why would you say such and odd and untrue thing? --Ed Poor ^Talk 15:30, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

• The city's official name is a contraction of the Dutch des Hertogen bosch—"the Duke's forest" (Wikipedia) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ed Poor (talk)

Indeed, 's-Hertogenbosch is a contraction of des Hertogen bosch. I mentioned that above. AugustO 15:53, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

When someone talks about the Big Apple, everyone knows that New York is meant. That's neither odd nor untrue. But this moniker is not the official name of the city, or a generally accepted abbreviation.

Take a look at the official home-page of 's Hertogenbosch: you won't find Den Bosch mentioned. Take a look at the Dutch wikipage of 's Hertogenbosch: the first section is about the name...

De naam Den Haag is officieel toegestaan. Men ziet die naam op wegwijzers en bij de spoorwegen. Voor Den Bosch ligt dat anders: de enige officiële naam is 's-Hertogenbosch. Ook in andere talen wordt 's-Hertogenbosch met de lange naam aangeduid: Bois-le-Duc in het Frans, Boscoducale in het Italiaans, Bolduque in het Spaans en Herzogenbusch in het Duits. De Latijnse naam is Silva Ducis of Buscum Ducis.

That means something like

The name Den Haag is officially accepted. You find this name on road signs and at railways. This is different for Den Bosch: the only official name is 's-Hertogenbosch. In other languages the long name is also used: Bois-le-Duc in French, Boscoducale in Italian, Bolduque in Spanish en Herzogenbusch in German. The Latin name is Silva Ducis or Buscum Ducis.

BTW, the existence of so many translations of the name are an indicator of the historical importance of the city.

AugustO 15:51, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

Supporting AugustO. 's Hertogenbosch is used almost everywhere the official is required, e.g. railway timetables and road signs. But Den Bosch is usually used in informal conversation. PenelopeP 17:29, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

St Petersburg might be a good parallel. The Russians who live there generally just refer to it as "Peter", or sometimes "Petersburg". But the official name is Saint Petersburg and indeed the Conservapedia article is under that name. It would be confusing to list the article under "Peter"!--CPalmer 05:22, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

On the other hand, maybe it's more like Hull. In full, the town is Kingston upon Hull, but that is rarely used and even the local council's website just uses Hull. The Conservapedia page is actually entitled Kingston upon Hull, but I think there would be a reasonably strong case for just using Hull, especially if Den Bosch is kept here.--CPalmer 05:28, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

Conversation in Edit Comments

error? what error? This is like moving The United States to United States'

Moving 's Hertogenbosch to Hertogenbosch is akin to moving The United States of America to The United States America - you are losing the genitive. Moving 's Hertogenbosch to Den Bosch is like moving ''The United States of America to States. AugustO 15:57, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

LOL, touché. --Ed Poor ^Talk 16:38, 9 May 2012 (EDT)

Article move

... could you move this article back to 's-Hertogenbosch? I would have asked you at User talk:Ed Poor, but unfortunately, that page is protected.

AugustO 01:26, 10 May 2012 (EDT)

Didn't you read my objections above? --Ed Poor ^Talk 13:23, 9 June 2012 (EDT)

I read your objections. Frankly, I took your last comment (touché) as a concession to my objections. Nevertheless, I left the decision to move the article to you, but you really should to it: it's the right thing.

I actually currently live in `s-Hertogenbosch. Both names are commonly used (in writing the Den Bosch variant is more often used because it's just easier to type), but the official name is `s-Hertogenbosch. A lot of people don't care that much either way, but some take it very seriously indeed. There's a whole committee to promote the proper use of the official name. This is why you won't find the informal name listed on any official sources. --GTac 11:15, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

Graag bedankt! What are the odds... AugustO 11:18, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

Well, there are more than 140k people living here, so the odds aren't infinitesimal :-). --GTac 11:37, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

Please write about the campaign to promote the official name. --Ed Poor ^Talk 12:48, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

What do you want to know about them? They're called the Genootschap ter bevordering van het gebruik van de naam 's-Hertogenbosch (the society for the promotion of the name 's-Hertogenbosch) and their mission is to promote the proper use of the official name for clarity and for historical reasons. They have a facebook and a website. They seem to be a bunch of local guys (big surprise), so not sure what you want to know about them. I don't think they're important enough to put in an article, though they're a good indication on how people are very serious about the proper use and spelling of official names.

So let me know if you have any more questions or need anything else translated here. To be honest I don't really understand what the problem is here in the first case. It's an obvious fact that the official name is 's-Hertogenbosch, so why not change the article's name? --GTac 13:45, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

If the society isn't worth writing about, then I don't suppose their cause is worth bothering with; so we should keep using the page title that's easiest for us Americans. --Ed Poor ^Talk 22:06, 14 June 2012 (EDT)

Hahaha, but that doesn't make any sense. You're going to use the wrong, unofficial name because it's not interesting to write an entire article about a society which promotes the official name? So what if that society didn't exist at all, would that mean you'd automatically go for the incorrect names for articles? Maybe you should rename this article to just USA, it's a lot easier to type! Also, as it was set up before the name Den Bosch would redirect to the 's-Hertogenbosch page, so that wouldn't really be too hard to use for Americans. Ed Poor, is there some kind of reason you keep fighting to use the incorrect name? AugustO showed you that the official correct naming is 's-Hertogenbosch, I've confirmed it as a local, I've shown you that there are even people working to promote use of the official proper name, yet you refuse to change it for no other apparent reason than seeming pure stubbornness, which I don't really get.. It's not like this is a debatable issue anywhere else. --GTac 02:13, 15 June 2012 (EDT)