Difference between revisions of "Talk:American History Lecture One"

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m (Fun?: My high school's wasn't because the students just didn't care... neither did the teacher)
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Is that a guarantee?<br />Also, how much does the class cost? If you cannot disclose here, just email me. [[User:NathanG|Nate]] 12:32, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
Is that a guarantee?<br />Also, how much does the class cost? If you cannot disclose here, just email me. [[User:NathanG|Nate]] 12:32, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
: Sure, it will be fun.  Learning is much more effective when it is enjoyable.
: The in-person class is a total cost of $250 per student, including all the expenses, materials, books, copying, everything.  That is cheaper than the taxpayer-funded community college, and I may not even make a minimum wage on the class.  Also, in contrast with public schools, I provide a discount for each sibling to give the large families a break.  Participation here, of course, is free.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 12:40, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

Revision as of 10:40, 8 June 2008

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This lecture was improved, and now the changes have been removed. Why?

I made some changes to the American History lecture. My changes were deleted. Why?

They're used for Christian homeschooling and I don't think that the changes made are consistent with their paradigm. MountainDew 19:02, 12 March 2007 (EDT)

Several edits removed credit from Christianity from the lecture. For example, edits removed this:

The very first words of the Mayflower Compact were “In ye name of God Amen.” Just as our Nation’s founders started with a prayer, so do we. Prayer clears out the noise in our minds. We are looking for knowledge and inspiration here, and that comes from God. In most countries parents do not have the freedom even to have a class like this. The main reason we have freedoms is because Americans are more devoted to religion than in other countries.

Such edits are improper. I can't confirm the commenter above did those edits, but someone did (I don't know who the commenter above is, since he didn't sign his comment).--Aschlafly 11:05, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Starving Time?

Since the "Starving Time" is by most historians considered to have lasted from about 1609-1610-11, how could John Smith, who left Virginia in 1609, have become a leader of the colony afterwards? --PF Fox 17:21, 17 March 2007 (EDT)

There was an earlier "starving time," but the lecture has changed on this point anyway. Thanks.--Aschlafly 11:05, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

It has not been changed on this point. It still reads:

"From 1607-1611, the Jamestown settlement lived under socialism, whereby the group shared its food with everyone no matter how much or little he worked. This economic system was a complete failure as no one had any incentive to do any work. John Smith arrived from England and he installed a conservative economic system: “don’t work, don’t eat!” Magically, by 1614 there was suddenly plenty to eat."

Now, first of all, pretty much EVERY source I've examined uses the "Starving Time" to refer to the hard times of 1609-10 or 11. What earlier "starving time" do you have in mind, and what source refers to it as "The Starving Time?" Second, since Smith left for good in 1609, exactly how did he manage to change the Virginia settlement from a socialits to a free market economic system AFTER 1611 so that "magically, by 1614 there was suddenly enough to eat." --PF Fox 12:56, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Virginia had a "Straving time" almost the entire first decade of settlement. In 1613, George Percy led an attack on some natives, and despite the fact the colonists were starving, burned their cornfields (See Morgan, American Slavery, American Freedom)

The above does not address my point, which is how Captain John Smith could have overseen conversion to a "free market" Jamestown economy in or after 1611 when in fact he left in 1609? --PF Fox 19:55, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

Correct. Smith did help the colony survive its early years, but he did not make Jamestown an economic success. That did not occur until nearly a decade after he departed, with the development of tobacco as a cash crop.

Which is unfortunately NOT what it says here in this Lecture. --PF Fox 16:11, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

I know. I editied this lecture before (and I did return to correct many of the errors), but the powers that be at Conservapedia have "locked" the lecture, somehow thinking that improvement=vandalism.

--Columbus' Landfall?--

Columbus did not land on Christmas eve. His ships sighted land on October 11th, 1492, and landed the next day. (see Columbus, Journal of First Voyage, at http://www.americanjourneys.org/, pages 108-110)[user:dw1237200)

Slavery in Massachusetts

"Massachusetts did not allow slavery."

That is absolutely untrue. The Puritans in Massachussetts kept slaves and dealt in slaves until the late 18th century. Tituba, one of the first people accused in the 1692 Salem Witch trials, was a slave. --PF Fox 13:30, 21 April 2007 (EDT)

Support, please? By the way, I note how you slipped in "dealt in slaves." No one denied that there was a slave trade.--Aschlafly 13:58, 21 April 2007 (EDT)
Actually, I was trying to be fair. While Massachusetts dealt in slaves, mostly in Indian slaves and slaves from the West Indies, they were soon overtaken in that trade by Rhode Island. I do find myself musing, however, about the presumed moral superiority of a colony that you claim "did not allow slavery" (In fact, it did for well over a century) not being averse to making a few bucks off it.
On to the cites:
From THE PILGRIM READER,George Willison, Doubleday and Company 1953
"For years later, in 1641, the Bay formally recognized the institution of slavery in its CODE OF FUNDAMENTALS OR BODY OF LIBERTIES, anticipating Virginia by many years in legally instituting the "peculiar institution" being the first of the English colonies to do so.
There were Indian and Negro slaves in the Plymouth colony as early as 1646, when the authorities threatened to sell Indians or exchange them for Negroes as punishment for offenses..In 1706, Cotton Mather noted in his diary, "Received a singular blessing in the gift of a likely slave, which was a smile of heaven on this family."...slaves continued to be sold in the Boston market as late as 1788, when the traffic was forbidden."
In short, Massachussets not only allowed slavery -- they were the first colony to institute it. Your later claim about the "Virginia institution of slavery" "spreading to the colonies of Maryland, Carolina" etc., as if Virginia had been responsible for introducing that "peculiar institution" is misleading.
From NARRATIVES OF THE WITCHCRAFT CASES (1648-1706), edited by George Lincoln Burr, Charles Scribner Sons, 1914 Note:
Notes: "The Rev. Samuel Parris (1653-1720)..had lived for a time in Barbadoes whence he had brought back with him THE TWO SLAVES, John and Tituba...Sara Good, who with Sarah Osburn and Parris's SLAVE-WOMAN TITUBA..."(Emphasis added)
"...where an Indian Man attended us, he shewed several Scars, that seemed as if they had been long there, and shewed them as done by Witchcraft, and acquainted us that his Wife WHO ALSO WAS A SLAVE (emphasis added) was imprisoned for Witchcraft..."--PF Fox 15:00, 21 April 2007 (EDT)
OK, you're right, there were some slaves there. But the basic point is correct: Massachusetts disfavored slavery (neighboring Vermont was the first to ban it), while Virginia welcomed it. I've made the appropriate change. Thanks.--Aschlafly 15:14, 21 April 2007 (EDT)
Dealing in slaves, owning slaves, and being the first English colony to institutionalize it does not indicate a strong "disfavor" of the practice during the Puritan era.
How in the world could you do research on the subject of slavery in the US and be unaware that it was introduced to the English Colonies in Massachusetts? How could you study the Puritans and be unaware that they kept slaves? Did you never hear of the Salem Witch Trials and Tituba? --PF Fox 15:26, 21 April 2007 (EDT)
PF Fox, Massachusetts was the source of the abolitionist movement. While you have shown there were a few slaves there, and I have corrected the lecture, the anti-slavery sentiment was stronger in Massachusetts than any other colony.--Aschlafly 19:43, 21 April 2007 (EDT)
Actually, it was Quakers -- a group the Puritans loathed and abused -- who founded the first abolitionist organization in the US, and that was in Philadelphia. Boston was certainly later a focal point for the abolitionist movement, but it's not accurate to call Massachusetts the "source," and I'd very much like to see some backup for the claim that "the anti-slavery sentiment was stronger in Massachusetts than any other colony." Credit for that should probably go to Pennsylvannia. --PF Fox 11:54, 22 April 2007 (EDT)
Not directly apropos, but when the Quaker preacher Elias Hicks (from Long Island, New York) was dying, mostly paralyzed, in 1830, "'a quilted cotton coverlet was inadvertently placed upon his bed. As the weather was severely cold, his children... used their constant endeavors to keep this coverlet upon him. But they perceived by his actions that this coverlet annoyed him, because with his hand, which was not paralyzed, he continually attempted to removed it, as something exceedingly offensive. It was at least suggested by a friend present, that the reason why he removed it, was on account of its being the product of slavery.' When... a wool blanket was substituted, Elias Hicks, feeling the wool with his fingers, nodded his pleasure." Bliss Forbush: Elias Hicks, Quaker Liberal, 1956, Columbia University Press, p. 288. The Quakers abandoned slavery among themselves by a very long, slow, relatively quiet process of personal conversion. Dpbsmith 12:43, 22 April 2007 (EDT)
Thanks Dpbsmith, and PF Fox, for your information. I don't have an axe to grind here. But everything I've read suggests that the source and power of the abolitionist movement was Massachusetts. John Quincy Adams. Charles Sumner. Even Oliver Wendell Holmes in his youth. It think abolutionist newspapers were printed there also. I don't any of that coming out of Philadelphia, but I'm happy to consider more evidence.--Aschlafly 21:07, 22 April 2007 (EDT)
And what you've read has not mentioned the role of Quakers in the abolition movement? The Pennsylvannia Abolition Society? (http://www.hsp.org/default.aspx?id=792) --PF Fox 11:12, 23 April 2007 (EDT)

Roger Williams?

How does Roger Williams being dead when the constitution was written nullify his influence? Are you saying once someone is dead, their writings and philosophies can have NO influence on anyone? --PF Fox 16:28, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

By the way, here's a cite to explain how it is Williams' concept of separation of church and state influenced our constitution -- long after Williams was dead.

"In 1787 twelve states accepted the constitution; one did not. The one hold-out was the smallest and weakest of them all, Rhode Island; and the issue was religious liberty.

The Rhode Island delegation pled, "That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, and not by force or violence, and therefore all men have an equal, natural, and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience, and that no particular religious sect or society ought to be favored, or established by law in preference to others."

For three years the national union remained incomplete and without a constitution. Then Thomas Jefferson spoke to the delegates in support of Rhode Island: "By the Constitution you have made, you have protected the government from the people, but what have you done to protect the people from the government?"

http://www.biblebay.org/article.php?id=71. --PF Fox 16:44, 27 April 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for your comments, but Rhode Island refused to ratify the Constitution for economic reasons, not religious ones. Rhode Island had control of imports and wanted to continue to tax them.--Aschlafly 16:49, 27 April 2007 (EDT)
That does not alter the fact that Rhode Island's approach to religious liberty -- an approach owed primarily to Roger Williams -- was adopted by Jefferson in the drafting of the constitution. Again, is it your contention that once someone has died, they can exert NO influence? --PF Fox 16:52, 27 April 2007 (EDT)


Is that a guarantee?
Also, how much does the class cost? If you cannot disclose here, just email me. Nate 12:32, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

Sure, it will be fun. Learning is much more effective when it is enjoyable.
The in-person class is a total cost of $250 per student, including all the expenses, materials, books, copying, everything. That is cheaper than the taxpayer-funded community college, and I may not even make a minimum wage on the class. Also, in contrast with public schools, I provide a discount for each sibling to give the large families a break. Participation here, of course, is free.--Aschlafly 12:40, 8 June 2008 (EDT)