Difference between revisions of "Talk:American Indian"

Revision as of 18:41, May 28, 2007

Could this article possibly be broken down into more pieces? American Indian in a broad sense refers to all the indigenous peoples of North and South America, which is alot of ground to cover. Can we do an article on just North American Indians, and then maybe one on South Americans?Jnl001 12:46, 22 May 2007 (EDT)

"Native American" vs. "native American"

The term "Native American" does not mean the same thing as the phrase "native American". (Sorry I didn't explain this edit in the comment line. I can expand my explanation here if anyone wants to discuss.)--Hsmom 23:12, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

So what's the difference? And if you think that there was a punctuation error, why didn't you just correct the punctuation? Please don't just remove the sentence. RSchlafly 01:36, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

Sorry - I did a quick edit when I should have explained and discussed it here first. Let me explain. As you know, "Native American" refers to an American Indian, whereas "native American" refers to someone who was born here. (As opposed to "naturalized American", which refers to someone who was born elsewhere but has become a citizen here - like Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example). I think the context in which "Native American" or "native American" is used is usually enough to differentiate them (especially because almost everyone who is Native American would also be native American). If the context is not clear, one can always use "native-born American" instead of "native American", or "American Indian" instead of "Native American". The original sentence in the article was "Furthermore, the term Native American literally means anyone who was born in American as an American, so it can also be used by any American who wants to distinguish himself from an American immigrant." This sentence, as written, didn't make any sense to me, because I read it literally - that is, I read it to mean that any native-born American could call themselves a "Native American", with a capital N. Now I see that's perhaps not what was meant by the original sentence. Of course anyone can call themselves anything they want, but since "Native American" (with a cap N) generally isn't used to mean "native-born American", I thought (based on my original reading of it) the sentence didn't really add anything useful to the article and was confusing. That's why I took it out - I didn't think the sentence would make sense if I changed the cap N to a lower case N. However, since you put it back in, I assume you think it's important to the article to explain the two terms, and I can see that makes a certain amount of sense. If we're going to include information about the term "native American", then I think the sentence needs a bit of tweaking. How about The term "Native American", with a capital N, should not be confused with the phrase "native American", with a lower-case N. The term "native American" or "native-born American" refers to an American who was born in America, as opposed to a "naturalized American", who was born elsewhere but has become a citizen of America. What do you think? I welcome your input - let's work together to make this the best it can be.--Hsmom 09:46, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

I believe that any native-born American is just as much a Native American as anyone else. I object to any implication that some people are more rightfully called Native Americans, with whatever punctuation, based on how many generations their ancestors lived in America. I don't think any more needs to be added.

Someone else tried to edit it to imply that using the term native American to refer to a native-born American went obsolete in the 19th century. However, I do not think that is true. In my experience, many non-Indians readily identify themselves as native Americans, and American Indians are happy to be called Indians. RSchlafly 11:16, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

RSchlaflyFirst, let me say I had *no idea* that this was being discussed over at "Native American" when I did the original edit!

I see your point that the term "Native American" *could*, in theory, be used to refer to someone who was born in America but is not of indigenous decent. However, my personal impression is that this usage is rare. Do you find that people actually use it this way (with the capital N), or are you just making the argument that it *could* be used this way? I agree with you that the use of "native American" (with a lower-case N) to mean "native-born American", is not obsolete, but we must be careful not to confuse the two. In fact, I think it's important to explain the usage of both. How's this for a compromise - I think it contains what you were saying, plus explains the different usage of the two terms:

The term "Native American" literally means anyone who was born in America, and can be used that way; however the term is usually used to refer to an American Indian. The phrase "native American" (with a lower-case "N") or "native-born American" is usually used to refer to an American who was born in America. In contrast, the term "naturalized American" refers to someone who was born elsewhere but has become a citizen of America. --Hsmom 14:33, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

You are making some statements about how terms are "usually" used. I doubt that you are correct, and I don't see how the statements are helpful even if they are. So I don't agree with your proposed change. RSchlafly 00:46, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

RSchlafly, you are right - I shouldn't expect you to see my point of view without references. I did some looking - see below.

• native American –noun a person born in the United States. ^[1]

• Native American –noun Indian ^[2]

• Native American n. A member of any of the indigenous peoples of the Western Hemisphere. The ancestors of the Native Americans are generally considered by scientists to have entered the Americas from Asia by way of the Bering Strait sometime during the late glacial epoch. ^[3]

• Native American noun American Indian ^[4]

• native american adjective 1. of or pertaining to American Indians or their culture or languages; "Native American religions"; "Indian arrowheads" [syn: Indian] noun 1. any member of the peoples living in North or South America before the Europeans arrived [syn: Amerindian] ^[5]

Our article currently says "Furthermore, the term Native American [with a capital N] literally means anyone who was born in American as an American, so it can also be used by any American who wants to distinguish himself from an American immigrant." While I agree that it can be used this way, the references above seem to back up my understanding that this is not at all common usage, and I think if we are to be encyclopedic we should make that clear. Of course, there may be contexts or communities where this usage is common, and I have not done extensive research - could you give some examples of where you see "Native American" (with a capital N) used to mean "native-born American"? --Hsmom 13:25, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Your source suggests that "Native American" is a politically motivated propaganda term that is intended to imply that American Indians are the original inhabitants of America. The source is wrong when it says that the implication is "historically accurate". There is substantial evidence that American Indians were not the original inhabitants.

I don't know why you are pursuing this, unless you want CP to use terminology that suggests that Indians are more native to America than anyone else. The current text is correct, and avoids the inaccurate implications. RSchlafly 14:41, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

References and Notes

1. ↑ "native american." Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 28 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com [1]>
2. ↑ "Native American." Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1). Random House, Inc. 28 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com [2]>
3. ↑ "Native American." The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 28 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com [3]> This entry includes the following usage note: "Many Americans have come to prefer Native American over Indian both as a term of respect and as a corrective to the famous misnomer bestowed on the peoples of the Americas by a geographically befuddled Columbus. There are solid arguments for this preference. Native American eliminates any confusion between indigenous American peoples and the inhabitants of India, making it the clear choice in many official contexts. It is also historically accurate, despite the insistence by some that Indians are no more native to America than anyone else since their ancestors are assumed to have migrated here from Asia. But one sense of native is "being a member of the original inhabitants of a particular place," and Native Americans' claim to being the original inhabitants of the Americas is unchallenged. · Accuracy and precision aside, however, the choice between these two terms is often made as a matter of principle. For many, Native American is the only choice for expressing respect toward America's indigenous peoples; Indian is seen as wrong and offensive. For others, the former smacks of bureaucracy and the manipulation of language for political purposes while the latter is the natural English term, its inaptness made irrelevant by long use. Fortunately, this controversy appears to have subsided somewhat in recent years, and it is now common to find the two terms used interchangeably in the same piece of writing. Furthermore, the issue has never been particularly divisive between Indians and non-Indians. While generally welcoming the respectful tone of Native American, most Indian writers have continued to use the older name at least as often as the newer one. · Native American and Indian are not exact equivalents when referring to the aboriginal peoples of Canada and Alaska. Native American, the broader term, is properly used of all such peoples, whereas Indian is customarily used of the northern Athabaskan and Algonquian peoples in contrast to the Eskimos, Inuits, and Aleuts. Alaska Native (or less commonly Native Alaskan) is also properly used of all indigenous peoples residing in Alaska."
4. ↑ "Native American." Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary. K Dictionaries Ltd. 28 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com [4]>
5. ↑ "native american." WordNet® 3.0. Princeton University. 28 May. 2007. <Dictionary.com [5]>