Difference between revisions of "Talk:Conservative Bible Project"

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(The Example)
(KJV as baseline)
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:::OK.  You're welcome to post a book from the Hebrew Bible and start on it, just as I did from the New Testament.  Our goal is to translate the entire Bible, so the sooner we include the Hebrew, the better!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:42, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
 
:::OK.  You're welcome to post a book from the Hebrew Bible and start on it, just as I did from the New Testament.  Our goal is to translate the entire Bible, so the sooner we include the Hebrew, the better!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:42, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
 
::::I think the project of updating a Bible by addressing idea by idea concerns about older translations is great because language evolves by its nature to accommodate the milieu and ethos of its time. One must be able to refer to the original language when there are questions about the real meaning of words.  I think modern languages are most assuredly more capable of accurately and forcefully communicating ideas that make better sense to us than the old languages of our forefathers. But I do not know with what eye you would view the Tanach to make this translation of the Bible. It seems to me that for the most part any English language translation of the Bible that is written in such prose that pleases one would be an adequate starting point for then going in earnest to search for and root out translations that are not correct or could be more adequately expressed in modern language. I will examine the program for this project that you have put on the first page of this article and set to working on the Tanach with your guidance. [[User:ShmuelBernstein|ShmuelBernstein]] 14:06, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
 
::::I think the project of updating a Bible by addressing idea by idea concerns about older translations is great because language evolves by its nature to accommodate the milieu and ethos of its time. One must be able to refer to the original language when there are questions about the real meaning of words.  I think modern languages are most assuredly more capable of accurately and forcefully communicating ideas that make better sense to us than the old languages of our forefathers. But I do not know with what eye you would view the Tanach to make this translation of the Bible. It seems to me that for the most part any English language translation of the Bible that is written in such prose that pleases one would be an adequate starting point for then going in earnest to search for and root out translations that are not correct or could be more adequately expressed in modern language. I will examine the program for this project that you have put on the first page of this article and set to working on the Tanach with your guidance. [[User:ShmuelBernstein|ShmuelBernstein]] 14:06, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
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:::::For a translation in English, it seems reasonable to use the [[King James Version]] as the baseline, since it has been widely accepted, it is written at the highest grade level, and it is freely available (public domain).  Sound good?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:30, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

Revision as of 12:30, 14 August 2009

The Example

I learned on this site that the Adulteress Story might not be an original addition to the Bible, and after looking into it myself, there does seem to be a good deal of evidence supporting this. I've similarly been trying to find authorities who question the authenticity of the Luke passage given here, but I haven't been able to find any. What is the source for this, and perhaps should the second to last paragraph of Essay:Adulteress Story be modified to reflect that this passage is also in dispute? JacobB 10:54, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

That would be great if you added reference to the doubtful (but often-quoted by liberals) statement in Luke to the end of the Adulteress Story essay.
As to sources, my hardcopy NIV (annotated with Greek/Hebrew and other references) explains that this statement in Luke is not in several of the earliest manuscripts. Thinking about the statement, it doesn't make sense and it's not corroborated anywhere else. It's obvious liberal bias.
The advantage of this conservative Bible project is that it picks out the liberal bias (and thus lack authenticity) easier. Thanks for your contributions to this.--Andy Schlafly 11:03, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

This is a very interesting study project, but the problem to me is that it begins with the assumption that Christianity must fit with another ideology (conservatism) rather than accepting the possibility that Christianity might in fact not fit with conservatism. AddisonDM 17:47, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

That's a valid point, but I don't think that taking a conservative approach to translation assumes a perfectly conservative result. The conservative approach is simply a substantive alternative to other approaches, such as "word-for-word" (NASB) or "thought-for-thought" (NIV). How successful the conservative approach is, or how close a fit the text is to conservative substance, is a good topic for discussion after the approach is taken.
There are already liberal approaches to translation of the Bible, as reflected by some liberal Bible versions on the market that were developed by predominantly liberal interpreters.
By the way, on the issue of whether working on a new translation is itself objectionable, I recall that on my final exam in a Greek course the (monastic) teacher required us to translate a passage of the New Testament into English. No one raised an objection to that, except perhaps to its difficulty!  :-) --Andy Schlafly 17:58, 13 August 2009 (EDT)
I have no problem with new translations for purposes of learning, though I don't believe that any new translation could be singularly authoritative. I don't believe I could help as I know absolutely nothing about Biblical languages but good luck! AddisonDM 20:38, 13 August 2009 (EDT)
I can see from trying the first book (the Epistle to Philemon (Translated)) that this approach can be summed as a "conservative thought-for-thought" translation, as words are going to change. "Prisoner" in Christ, or "fellow laborer," just don't resonate as well today. Obviously this is not an easy task, but it is an educational one.
Or maybe this could be called a "conservative word-for-word" translation if only individual words are updated.--Andy Schlafly 20:58, 13 August 2009 (EDT)
Well it's a good idea to change words if the original is not powerful enough or does not properly convey the theological idea. However, my reservation is the possibility of an ideological translation, in which "conservative" words are substituted that might appear to change the original meaning. As you said, it's educational!

What are you considering as a better term for "prisoner" or fellow laborer"? By the way, you should look into the Message Bible, which attempts (sometimes badly) to update the Bible into modern times without changing the message. AddisonDM 21:11, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

I'm not sure the Message Bible adhered to conservative principles. Its modernization may have been a liberalization. Adhering to conservative principles is what gives credibility and guidance to a modern translation.
"Laborer" has an overriding economic meaning today. That can't be what Paul meant - he was a volunteer! "Fellow traveler", perhaps, or more conservative (and more accurate) might be "fellow volunteer."--Andy Schlafly 21:20, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

Do you have some person who speaks Hebrew to help with this? I am a native speaker. I will help if you give me specific problems you have to translate. ShmuelBernstein 00:19, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

We welcome all legitimate contributions to this project.--Andy Schlafly 11:05, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
I do not so far think I have much to contribute for what I have seen you working on so far from the Christian Gospels because it was not written in Hebrew, but please keep me in mind as a native speaker when you have questions about Biblical Hebrew from the Tanach. ShmuelBernstein 12:17, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
OK. You're welcome to post a book from the Hebrew Bible and start on it, just as I did from the New Testament. Our goal is to translate the entire Bible, so the sooner we include the Hebrew, the better!--Andy Schlafly 12:42, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
I think the project of updating a Bible by addressing idea by idea concerns about older translations is great because language evolves by its nature to accommodate the milieu and ethos of its time. One must be able to refer to the original language when there are questions about the real meaning of words. I think modern languages are most assuredly more capable of accurately and forcefully communicating ideas that make better sense to us than the old languages of our forefathers. But I do not know with what eye you would view the Tanach to make this translation of the Bible. It seems to me that for the most part any English language translation of the Bible that is written in such prose that pleases one would be an adequate starting point for then going in earnest to search for and root out translations that are not correct or could be more adequately expressed in modern language. I will examine the program for this project that you have put on the first page of this article and set to working on the Tanach with your guidance. ShmuelBernstein 14:06, 14 August 2009 (EDT)
For a translation in English, it seems reasonable to use the King James Version as the baseline, since it has been widely accepted, it is written at the highest grade level, and it is freely available (public domain). Sound good?--Andy Schlafly 14:30, 14 August 2009 (EDT)