Talk:Conservative Bible Project

Liberal Rants Against Project

Editing the Bible to insert your own political agenda is blasphemous, and no true Christian would be presumptous and arrogant enough to take part in this project. And saying this does not make me a "liberal" or a "vandal", it makes me a Christian and someone objective enough to see phonies like the people on here for what you are. Usurpers and false Christians. GregHarris 12:23, 7 October 2009(EDT)

Greg, many now-established Bible translations throughout history have met similar opposition. No one here is trying to "insert a political agenda" - the objective is to clarify (not obscure or distort) the intended meaning, compensating for words that have shifted and making full use of new terms that have become available. If you think that there are flaws in our efforts, about which we remain humble, please point them out and suggest improvements.--CPalmer 12:25, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Here is a partial list of the translators considered liberal by this project:

   * Dr. Boyce Blackwelder. Anderson College, Anderson, Indiana.
   * Dr. E. M. Blaiklock. Professor Emeritus of Classics, University of Auckland, Titirangi, Auckland, New Zealand.
   * Dr. James L. Boyer. Professor Emeritus of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary Winona Lake, Indiana.
   * Dr. John A. Burns. Academic Dean, Luther Rice Seminary, Jacksonville, Florida.
   * William J. Cameron. Principal Emeritus, Free Church of Scotland College, Edinburgh, Scotland.
   * Dr. A. Glenn Campbell. Professor Emeritus of New Testament, Greek, and Theology, Montana Institute of the Bible, Ottawa, Kansas.
   * Dr. Gary C. Cohen. Lecturer, Miami Christian College, Miami, Florida.
   * Dr. Huber L. Drumwright. Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
   * Dr. William K. Eichhorst. President of Academic Affairs, Winnipeg Bible College and Theological Seminary, Otterburne, Manitoba, Canada.
   * Dr. Virtus E. Gideon. Professor of New Testament and Greek, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Fort Worth, Texas.
   * Dr. Robert L. Hendren. Minister, Donelson Church of Christ, Nashville, Tennessee.
   * Dr. Robert G. Hoerber. Professor of Exegetical Theology, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis, Missouri.
   * Dr. Ronald Jones. Associate Professor, Victory Tabernacle Baptist Church, Norfolk, Virginia.
   * Dr. Charles R. Smith. Professor of Christian Theology and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana.

Does this site have any "translators" who have degrees from "seminaries" that aren't unaccredited bible colleges? No please, before I get a snarky reply, Union Theological Seminary, Harvard Divinity School, Drew Divinity are serious, accredited seminaries. Miami Christian College is not. The Montana Institute of the Bible does not exactly have an international reputation for cutting-edge biblical scholarship. And before I get the second snarky reply, I teach at a private Baptist university that takes academic rigor and scholarship seriously. Seriously enough to where no one here would attempt to "translate" the KJV. Either work with the original Greek and Hebrew or don't waste time with this.

We welcome the "experts" from the liberal schools you list. We welcome your contributions. But I'm not hopeful. The reality is that the biggest source of translation error is political bias, and you're probably as liberal as your fellow teachers.--Andy Schlafly 21:59, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

   * Dr. John A. Sproule. Associate Professor of New Testament and Greek, Grace Theological Seminary, Winona Lake, Indiana.
   * Dr. Harry A. Sturz. Professor Emeritus of Greek, Biola College, La Mirada, California.
   * Dr. Joseph S. Wang. Professor of New Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary, Wilmore, Kentucky.
   * Dr. Phillip R. Williams. Registrar, Professor of New Testament, Northwest Baptist Seminary, Tacoma, Washington.
   * Dr. A. Skevington Wood. Principal, Cliff College, Calver, Sheffield, England.
   * Dr. Arthur L. Farstad. New Testament Editor, Dallas, Texas.
   * Dr. Lewis A. Foster. Professor of New Testament, Cincinnati Seminary, Cincinnati, Ohio.

I bet over 80% of the above list vote for Obama for President. That's their right, but let's not pretend they don't have liberal bias.--Andy Schlafly 17:33, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Sir, you have born false witness against your neighbor! Concordia Seminary and its faculty are most assuredly NOT liberal! What's more, I take exception to your whole notion of a "liberal" Bible. I know both Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew, and can tell you that the ESV is a very accurate translation. If you stand accused by Scripture, you are wrong! Period. End of story. You should not commit the sin of eisegesis in order to further your goals. That is, unless you're just pulling a fast one on all of us... VoxLutheri 20:56, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Then it's a very good thing he didn't, isn't it? He said 80%, not 100%. What is more, if you actually READ the page instead of jumping into the talk page to sling accusations, you'd know exactly what issues we take with the ESV and other translations. Instead of having a knee-jerk reaction to this project, try to stay open-minded. JacobB 21:02, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

No, that is exactly what you are doing. I'm a proud Christian Conservative, but this is ridiculous. Replacing "rich" with "miserly"? "Kill" with "murder"? How you switch God's words like this? You don't know he meant miserly over rich. And replacing "liberal" with "generous" just because you don't want to mention them? Again, I think they're as stupid as anyone, but it's obvious your just promoting your own political agenda at the cost of God's word. How can you call yourselves Christians and partake in this blasphemy. Darmientie 17:27, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Darmientie, you complain like a liberal and yet claim to be a "proud Christian Conservative." Guess what: conservatives don't capitalize the "C" in "conservative".--Andy Schlafly 17:33, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

I'm sick of being accused of blasphemy, so let me re-iterate: we aren't CHANGING the bible. What you've read are translations; this is simply another one. We are attempting to give the best possible meanings for the words used in the originals; a CONSEQUENCE of this is that the translation we produce is Conservative, because the BIBLE IS CONSERVATIVE. The original Greek doesn't call a child "it," the original texts don't have the adulteress story. By fixing these translating errors, we produce a Bible which is both accurate and conservative. Got it? JacobB 17:36, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

I'm not reading translations, sir, I am reading Greek. In Greek, "paidion," or "child" is neuter. In other words, the Bible, God's Holy Word in its original form, does call a child "it." You have no knowledge of the scriptures, or the power therein! You are an eisegete, and a heretic, and you ought to keep your mouth shut on matters of which you have no knowledge!VoxLutheri 20:59, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Sorry, I'm confused. If there are inconsistencies between the Bible and conservative doctrine, and if it is important for the two to be in harmony, shouldn't it be the doctrine that gets revised, not the Bible? Altering religious texts in furtherance of political goals (rather than merely updating archaic language) is kind of disturbing. Of course, this has happened many times over the history of the Bible, but it's still disturbing.

You're not confused and you know it. This has nothing to do with "harmonizing" the Bible with conservative "doctrine." The project is explained quite clearly on the page, and on this talk page. The fact that you call conservative reasoning and logic "doctrine" just demonstrates that you don't understand conservatism and don't understand what we're trying to do here. JacobB 18:15, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

The Example

I learned on this site that the Adulteress Story might not be an original addition to the Bible, and after looking into it myself, there does seem to be a good deal of evidence supporting this. I've similarly been trying to find authorities who question the authenticity of the Luke passage given here, but I haven't been able to find any. What is the source for this, and perhaps should the second to last paragraph of Essay:Adulteress Story be modified to reflect that this passage is also in dispute? JacobB 10:54, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

That would be great if you added reference to the doubtful (but often-quoted by liberals) statement in Luke to the end of the Adulteress Story essay.

As to sources, my hardcopy NIV (annotated with Greek/Hebrew and other references) explains that this statement in Luke is not in several of the earliest manuscripts. Thinking about the statement, it doesn't make sense and it's not corroborated anywhere else. It's obvious liberal bias.

The advantage of this conservative Bible project is that it picks out the liberal bias (and thus lack authenticity) easier. Thanks for your contributions to this.--Andy Schlafly 11:03, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

This is a very interesting study project, but the problem to me is that it begins with the assumption that Christianity must fit with another ideology (conservatism) rather than accepting the possibility that Christianity might in fact not fit with conservatism. AddisonDM 17:47, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

That's a valid point, but I don't think that taking a conservative approach to translation assumes a perfectly conservative result. The conservative approach is simply a substantive alternative to other approaches, such as "word-for-word" (NASB) or "thought-for-thought" (NIV). How successful the conservative approach is, or how close a fit the text is to conservative substance, is a good topic for discussion after the approach is taken.

There are already liberal approaches to translation of the Bible, as reflected by some liberal Bible versions on the market that were developed by predominantly liberal interpreters.

By the way, on the issue of whether working on a new translation is itself objectionable, I recall that on my final exam in a Greek course the (monastic) teacher required us to translate a passage of the New Testament into English. No one raised an objection to that, except perhaps to its difficulty!  :-) --Andy Schlafly 17:58, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

I have no problem with new translations for purposes of learning, though I don't believe that any new translation could be singularly authoritative. I don't believe I could help as I know absolutely nothing about Biblical languages but good luck! AddisonDM 20:38, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

I can see from trying the first book (the Epistle to Philemon (Translated)) that this approach can be summed as a "conservative thought-for-thought" translation, as words are going to change. "Prisoner" in Christ, or "fellow laborer," just don't resonate as well today. Obviously this is not an easy task, but it is an educational one.

Or maybe this could be called a "conservative word-for-word" translation if only individual words are updated.--Andy Schlafly 20:58, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

Well it's a good idea to change words if the original is not powerful enough or does not properly convey the theological idea. However, my reservation is the possibility of an ideological translation, in which "conservative" words are substituted that might appear to change the original meaning. As you said, it's educational!

What are you considering as a better term for "prisoner" or fellow laborer"? By the way, you should look into the Message Bible, which attempts (sometimes badly) to update the Bible into modern times without changing the message. AddisonDM 21:11, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

I'm not sure the Message Bible adhered to conservative principles. Its modernization may have been a liberalization. Adhering to conservative principles is what gives credibility and guidance to a modern translation.

"Laborer" has an overriding economic meaning today. That can't be what Paul meant - he was a volunteer! "Fellow traveler", perhaps, or more conservative (and more accurate) might be "fellow volunteer."--Andy Schlafly 21:20, 13 August 2009 (EDT)

Do you have some person who speaks Hebrew to help with this? I am a native speaker. I will help if you give me specific problems you have to translate. ShmuelBernstein 00:19, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

We welcome all legitimate contributions to this project.--Andy Schlafly 11:05, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

I do not so far think I have much to contribute for what I have seen you working on so far from the Christian Gospels because it was not written in Hebrew, but please keep me in mind as a native speaker when you have questions about Biblical Hebrew from the Tanach. ShmuelBernstein 12:17, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

OK. You're welcome to post a book from the Hebrew Bible and start on it, just as I did from the New Testament. Our goal is to translate the entire Bible, so the sooner we include the Hebrew, the better!--Andy Schlafly 12:42, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

I think the project of updating a Bible by addressing idea by idea concerns about older translations is great because language evolves by its nature to accommodate the milieu and ethos of its time. One must be able to refer to the original language when there are questions about the real meaning of words. I think modern languages are most assuredly more capable of accurately and forcefully communicating ideas that make better sense to us than the old languages of our forefathers. But I do not know with what eye you would view the Tanach to make this translation of the Bible. It seems to me that for the most part any English language translation of the Bible that is written in such prose that pleases one would be an adequate starting point for then going in earnest to search for and root out translations that are not correct or could be more adequately expressed in modern language. I will examine the program for this project that you have put on the first page of this article and set to working on the Tanach with your guidance. ShmuelBernstein 14:06, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

For a translation in English, it seems reasonable to use the King James Version as the baseline, since it has been widely accepted, it is written at the highest grade level, and it is freely available (public domain). Sound good?--Andy Schlafly 14:30, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

I do not have the King James Version, but I see that it is available online. It is filled with archaic Jacobean language, so I can certainly see why you would wish to make a modern translation. I have looked at the work done on the Gospel of Mark and have some questions about how this project is done. Is someone doing this translation from looking at the original Greek to modernize the language? Or is it being done through some other concern? The sentence structure is sometimes far different than the original King James Version that I think the sentences are being restated in some manner. Is this correct? I am trying to understand what makes a conservative bible, so wonder what some of the 12 conditions stated on the project page mean. For example, Number 11 says "use glorifying language for the remarkable achievements." Does this mean that if the idea of the glory of a person's conduct or person is not in the Bible it is to be added? Also "recognizing that Christianity introduced powerful new concepts that even the Greek and Hebrew were inadequate to express, but modern conservative language can express well" is not clear to me - if some concept was not adequately expressed in Hebrew or Greek it cannot be adequately expressed in a translation into another language because it was beyond the ability of the writer to communicate in the original language. One might surmise what the author intended and make appropriate notes. However the language of the Bible itself is what must be translated or it is not a translation but a restatement and amplification of ideas rather than language. I think this last point clarifies the source of my confusion about the project. I look forward to hearing from you. ShmuelBernstein 16:32, 18 August 2009 (EDT)

I don't agree that "if some concept was not adequately expressed in Hebrew or Greek it cannot be adequately expressed in a translation into another language." Parables, for example, transcend inadequacies in language and it is fully possible to take a parable written in a simplistic language and express it more fully in a richer language.

A conservative Bible uses the richness provided in part by conservative language to fully convey the concepts. The original Greek and Hebrew may help sometimes, or they may be inadequate. "Logos" in the beginning of John illustrates this point, as the term is merely the best the Greek has to offer. "Truth" as fully understood and used today, as developed and popularized by the conservative movement (it's rarely used by the Left), is a better term to convey the concept.--Andy Schlafly 16:56, 18 August 2009 (EDT)

Are you and who else is helping with the Gospel of Mark referring to the Greek when making your changes to the KJV? ShmuelBernstein 09:04, 19 August 2009 (EDT)

I agree that many translations have added thoughts and words that were not in the original, inspired Word of God. I also agree that a new, more accurate translation is needed than what is available now. My concern for this project is oversight. A true translation of God's original Word should have continual (not occasional) consultations with the original texts. How can we insure total impartiality in the undertaking of this project. After all, the bible is not meant to be conservative, liberal or anything else.......it is God's Word.....nothing more...nothing less. It is not a political treatise that should be translated with a "conservative" filter, "liberal" filter, "ecological" filter or any other type of political filter. What safeguards are there to insure a lack of political bias of any type in this project? --JF1971 00:48, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Wikilinking some things, Footnotes

Seeing the comment "Translate Beelzebub better?" in the Mark translation got me thinking. This project is unlike many other translation projects, in that it is being conducted on a wiki that has an absolute wealth of information on relevant topics. What do people think of wikilinking terms that might be unfamiliar to readers. I'm not suggesting that every term that has a corresponding wiki page get a link. That would just look messy. I do think it might be useful to link things like place names (provided that they have adequate associated pages.) It's like the best footnotes you could hope for. Of course, things should still be translated in such a way that everything makes sense without having to click on links for things, but there are places where I think that a wikilink would be just the thing. (Additionally, adding footnotes might not be a bad idea in general - there may be places where it's hard to capture the nuance and context without breaking the cadence or pace of the prose or adding an bunch of detail that isn't in the original text.) DaveB7 14:27, 2 September 2009 (EDT)

Peace in concordance

I looked up the word 'peace' in the NT and found a few different words being translated into peace.

• G2270 - ἡσυχάζω - hēsychazō - used 5 times. hold (one's) peace 2, rest 1, cease 1, be quiet 1 [1]
• G5392 - φιμόω - phimoō - used 8 times. put to silence 2, hold (one's) peace 2, muzzle 2, be speechless 1, be still 1 [2]
• G4623 - σιωπάω - siōpaō - used 11 times. hold (one's) peace 9, peace 1, dumb 1 [3]
• G1515 - εἰρήνη - eirēnē - used 92 times. peace 89, one 1, rest 1, quietness 1 [4]

While G2270, G5392, and G4623 have changed the meaning over time - to hold one's peace is archaic phrasing, G1515 is still very much the word 'peace'.

G1515 is defined as:

1. a state of national tranquillity
   1. exemption from the rage and havoc of war
2. peace between individuals, i.e. harmony, concord
3. security, safety, prosperity, felicity, (because peace and harmony make and keep things safe and prosperous)
4. of the Messiah's peace
   1. the way that leads to peace (salvation)
5. of Christianity, the tranquil state of a soul assured of its salvation through Christ, and so fearing nothing from God and content with its earthly lot, of whatsoever sort that is
6. the blessed state of devout and upright men after death

Matthew 10:34 uses G1515 as peace. Think 3543 not 3361 that 3754 I am come 2064 to send 906 peace 1515 on 1909 earth 1093: I came 2064 not 3756 to send 906 peace 1515, but 235 a sword 3162. The numbers following are the Strong's numbers. In this case, the definitions 1, 2, and 3 are certainly the proper translations rather than 4, 5, or 6.

Likewise, Luke 2:14 uses G1515 as peace. "Glory 1391 to God 2316 in 1722 the highest 5310, and 2532 on 1909 earth 1093 peace 1515, good will 2107 toward 1722 men 444"

The word eirēnē is from the Greek goddess of the same name (Pax in Roman mythology) and was a deity that was against war.[5]

I am curious if it is indeed G1515 that is being said that the meaning has changed over time and how those 89 uses in KJV as peace would be changed. --JohnnyS 22:13, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

Thanks for the superb analysis. I'm going to study your work further. My immediate reaction is that the most common use of "peace" in the Bible, as in "peace be with you," really means the Hebrew concept of "shalom". It's a fullness and tranquility of mind, and that's not what the word now primarily means in English. See, e.g., [6]--Andy Schlafly 23:54, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

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I'm not sure how 'conservative' it is, but there's an 'updating' of the KJV I found a few years ago called the 21st Century King James (unsigned by Right Wing 2)

I don't think it is conservative at all. In fact, I think it fails on several of the guidelines outlined in the content entry here. But thanks for mentioning it.--Andy Schlafly 09:18, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Revelation 22:19 says be very careful when you re-translate the Bible

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." - King James Version

...although it doesn't say anything about adding to the "words of the book" - just taking away - you still need to be prayerfully and thoughtfully careful, keeping true to the original Greek or Aramaic. Keep in mind some of the Bible is just poetry, which never translates well. And alliteration and other word tricks that sound good in one language just don't translate well at all, like the "camel and the eye of the needle" story element in Aramaic has the words "gamel" (camel) and "gimel" (needle) next to each other, which helps the hearer remember the story. PaulBurnett 11:17, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

You raise interesting issues, but your interpretation is erroneous. The sentence does not say "take away words" as you imply, but it says "take away from the words." The point obviously relates to meaning, not to specific words.

We are experts here at defending against liberal bias, which is the greatest threat to the meaning of the Bible. We comply with your quoted sentence by working against attempts to dilute and distort biblical meaning.--Andy Schlafly 12:32, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Let's also please consider at least the chapter in its entirety when attempting to criticize the project. The verse prior to the one you reference, Revelation 22:18, gives consequences for adding to the "words of the book". I find it especially interesting that you use quotation marks when referring to the "words of the book"... perhaps you're aware that most translations phrase these two verses in such a way that it's very clear the book referenced is the book of revelations, not the bible as a whole? While I agree with the need for caution, and am actually somewhat affronted by the hubris of this project (or any translation of the bible, period), I dislike it when the bible is misquoted as a scare tactic. Downkey

Let's be clear. This is not a Bible translation at all. It is merely a re-wording of the KJV. AngusF 14:22, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

No, it's more than that. We consult the Greek sometimes and benefit from other guidelines in Conservative Bible Project.--Andy Schlafly 23:28, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Sometimes. Wow! Impressive! AngusF 22:41, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Use the original texts

How can you effectively translate an existing translation? That makes your translation like playing telephone and all you are going to get in the end it something even farther from the original document. Go back to the original Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, etc. Also, are you going to include the apocrypha or take out any books? Fsamuels 12:21, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

I presume from your comment that you're versed in some ancient languages, in which case, your contributions to the project would be very much appreciated! DouglasA 12:22, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Fsamuels, your contributions are most welcome to this project, and we do refer to the so-called "original" texts as needed. But note that the Greek (you seem unsure in identifying the language) was itself an imperfect language for conveying certain powerful concepts, and that many of the translation disputes today are unrelated to the original language.--Andy Schlafly 12:44, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

If "certain powerful concepts" are not (perfectly) preserved in the languages of the earliest manuscripts, then from what source do you infer more perfect "translations"? AngusF 13:30, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Language is never 100% precise. Sometimes it is obvious what was meant, despite the inartful articulation provided by the best terminology available. Mark 6:22 has an example of this, and we improved on the Greek word for "girl". See Gospel of Mark (Translated).--Andy Schlafly 23:31, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

The trouble with that example is, we already know what "κορασιων" means — it means "little girl", the diminutive of the bog-standard Greek word for girl, κοραι. And we know that because people used it on funerary inscriptions (among others) to describe their dead daughters, who they (presumably) didn't want to call temptresses. Ancient Greek had a rich, complex vocabulary, including a complete vocabulary of sexual terms — they had words for temptress, slut, prostitute, dancer, etc. The author of the Gospel of Mark chose to use the word that unequivocally means "little girl" instead of one of the many less savory words he had available, and yet you think you know better what he meant to say? That's not creating an unbiased translation — that's shoehorning your own belief structure into the Bible. Does that honor God? --Jere7my 20:41, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Fine, κορασιων means "little girl," but that obviously does not fit the context of the story. What is missing from your analysis is that Mark himself was a young boy at the time also. The underlying event was almost certainly a provocative dance by a young woman, and the best translation should reflect the obvious truth. Fisherman Mark may not have been familiar with the "rich, complex" Greek vocabulary to which you allude, and we're not about to change the Greek term Mark used. But let the finest English be used to convey the likely meaning accurately.--Andy Schlafly 22:33, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Obvious? Seems to me you're injecting the meanings you want based on your ideas about what the text should say. AngusF 10:13, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

I have an open mind about this. There is a different between "original intent," which is what we've suggested, and "textualism", which seems to be what you want (or you may simply be criticizing this project for political reasons). I tend to think "original intent" is a better approach, but welcome other comments and suggestions.--Andy Schlafly 10:26, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

How is "original intent" determined? AngusF 10:58, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

The same way as with anything else: looking at the text in context and as informed by the thinking of the authors. Most people interpret the Constitution the same way. This is particularly important when powerful new concepts go beyond the abilities of the existing language.

99% of the time the text itself is clear and definitive, but intent matters for that other 1%.--Andy Schlafly 11:09, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Outside of the text itself, what evidence do we have of “the thinking of the authors”? One huge difference between biblical and constitutional hermeneutics is that we know who the authors of the Constitution were and we can consult their other writings for guidance in determining their intentions. And are you suggesting that the Bible’s authors had “powerful new concepts” that they were unable to express in their languages? How can we know what those concepts were if the long-dead authors could not convey them to us? Is it even possible to have a concept that cannot be expressed in language? AngusF 13:12, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

We don't need "other writings" to determine original intent. Context and logic are more useful. I gave you the specific example of this that we have already encountered: Mark 6:22, where we improved on the Greek word for "girl". You wouldn't address it.

The bestselling Bible today, the NIV, is a thought-for-thought translation that inherently relies on intent as well as text.--Andy Schlafly 14:28, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

I don't see how your translation of the Greek of Mark 6:22 is an improvement. The case for that has not been convincingly made. Thought-for-thought translation is not equivalent to a hermeneutic objective of recovering original intent. And you have not addressed most of my questions to you. AngusF 22:46, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

I, also, question the need for an "improvement" in the translation of Mark 6:22. If you took the verse separately, out of context, then maybe the clarification is needed, but if you read the verse in the context it is written in, then the clarification is not needed at all. The actions of the "damsel" or "girl" show what type of person she is and her role in the story being related. I think that questioning the word usage of the original authors that God inspired to write His Word is stepping over the bounds of a faithful translation. --JF1971 00:29, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Treading dangerous ground

I am really surprised by this project. As far as I am concerned you are treading very dangerous ground. You are proposing that we retranslate the Bible based on a political agenda. The Bible is God's word, not yours. If you want to retranslate based on a new understanding of the original documents, and you have the scholarship to do so, then go right ahead. What is happening here, it seems to me, is not an effort to correct an older mistranslation or to shed new light. JDStarrett 11:41, 5 October 2009 (MST)

I don't speak for CP officially, so perhaps take my response with a grain of salt. I'd say that this is really a "correction of a mistranslation", though the KJV is not so much a mistranslation as it is a very dated translation. For many verses we retain the original of the KJV and merely rephrase sentences to fit more modern syntax. In cases where new words developed since the publication of the KJV more precisely capture the meaning of passages, we use those words. There are also aspects of new scholarship, though most of them admittedly originate outside the project itself. For example, the retranslation omits the adulteress story, which is now widely accepted as being a later addition to the Bible.

It is important to understand that the retranslation is in no way a new translation based on a political agenda. It is rather a new translation whose primary aim is precisely to remove the influence that political agendas have had on previous translations, and to update certain passages to use new vocabulary that more effectively captures their meaning. If this translation is more conservative than others, that is a result of a) its attempt to purge politically-motivated changes to the text and b) the appearance of powerful new conservative insights that make possible better translation of certain ideas which are clearly in the original text. I believe that if there is ever a situation where a new liberal word would provide a superior translation, we will employ it without hesitation: however, this will be relatively infrequent because of the generally superior nature of conservative insights since the publication of the KJV. --MarkGall 14:04, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Very well put, Mark. I agree and you said it better than I might have.--Andy Schlafly 15:07, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Just to make sure I understand- this is not a translation based on a political agenda, it just happens to be undertaken by people who recognize the "superior nature of conservative insights since the publication of the KJV". Here's my concern: as articulated in the project page, one of the source of errors in current translations can be addressed by updating the language to convey "new concepts of Christianity". My question is: from whence spring these new concepts of Christianity? What is the source? From what authority did these new concepts arise?

The "new" refers to the time of Christ. The source is Christ. I'll clarify that on the project page. Thanks.--Andy Schlafly 09:55, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

OK, let me see if I understand you --

1. The KJV has a liberal bias? How so? 2. People who cannot read Greek are going to retranslate the Bible to make something superior to the KJV 3. You are going to use "conservative language" yet there is no political motivation? 4. You cite the "conservapedia law" which is no law at all, merely wishful thinking with no evidence to back it up, as a motivating force for the project?

I think you are overreaching and that this will not end well. Still, if you are going through with it, may God guide you.

JDStarrett 20:57, 7 October 2009 (MST)

The KJV is no longer the bestselling Bible, and as time goes by it will be used less and less. We do not criticize the KJV; indeed, we're using it as a foundation. Note that the English language is changing and some non-authentic passages did creep into the KJV.

Increasingly liberal translations are appearing almost annually. Did you complain about those? If not, I wonder why you object to one conservative approach.

I have studied Greek, but it's clear that the greatest translation errors are due to political bias, not lack of understanding of Greek.

Thanks for your well-wishing conclusion. How about contributing to the project? You're welcome to learn and teach with it.--Andy Schlafly 23:11, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

CBP in blogs

Mr. Schlafly -- it appears that a number of mostly liberal blogs have carried pieces about the retranslation project within the last couple days. We have already seen a number of new posts questioning the basis of this project, and I expect that more are to come. I posted my own response to one of them above, but I'm hesitant to be perceived as speaking for the project. Would you prefer that we leave such responses to you, or is it OK if other editors post first responses and let you add your thoughts later? --MarkGall 14:07, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Please do respond without worrying about me. I have an open mind and am learning from your responses.

Note that liberals will sometimes make arguments they do not accept themselves in order to try to deter Christians or conservatives or others. For example, one liberal insisted here that we should shut down this site on Sundays as the Sabbath, a viewpoint he did not accept himself but perhaps thought it would disrupt us.--Andy Schlafly 15:07, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Names of God

The original Hebrew text of much of the Bible uses multiple terms for God. For example, Genesis 1:1 uses the term "Elohim" while Genesis 3:14 uses the Tetragrammatron (YHVH/JHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah whatever your prefered term is). Sometimes both names are used together. Thus, when a translation uses "God" "Lord God" "Lord" and other terms they are reflecting actual distinctions in the original text. Changing these all to Lord will make for inaccurate translation. The use of multiple such terms is not "liberal" simply textually accurate. JoshuaZ 14:35, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Thanks for your insight, Joshua. I have an open mind about it. But the use of different Hebrew words does not automatically imply that different English words are the best translations.

I'm curious, Joshua: are you drawing upon childhood knowledge for your insight? As you can see on the liberal blogs, evolutionists both hate the Bible and are remarkably ignorant about it. Once someone buys into evolution, he typically refuses to learns anything about the Bible again, despite its undisputed role as the most influential book.--Andy Schlafly 15:54, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Childhoold knowledge. Anyone who reads the Bible in the original Hebrew learns this as one of the first things about the text. I disagree with your claims about the Bible, "evolutionists" and "liberal blogs" but that's an argument that would be a bit off topic. JoshuaZ 21:24, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

I predicted that perfectly, didn't I? Lucky guess on my part? Nope. Show me an evolutionist, and I'll show you someone who thinks of himself as well-read and yet never, ever reads the Bible. The correlation between belief in evolution and avoidance of the Bible (despite claiming to be well-read) is nearly a perfect 100%. Indeed, the correlation is so perfect that one could almost define an evolutionist as an educated person who never reads the Bible. Indeed, I'll add that to the entry here.

If evolution were not simply an anti-religious belief system, then that correlation would not be so high. The correlation is nowhere near that high for other scientific theories, for example.--Andy Schlafly 21:34, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Not a lucky guess since again like most good little Jewish boys I started studying the text from a young age. As for not reading the Bible, I'm scheduled to give the student sermon three weeks from now at Friday night services in three weeks (the corresponding section for that week is the story of Noah) and I'm currently in the process of brushing up on the section dealing with the offerings for Sukkot (in Numbers 29) since it is thematically relevant (being the middle of the holiday). In any event, the relevant point I was trying to make was about the names. That seems to have been done. (Incidentally, if you want a good resource for looking at various versions of the Biblical texts, http://unbound.biola.edu/ is really helpful). JoshuaZ 22:11, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Joshua, above you said you were drawing on your childhood knowledge, but now seem to imply (without saying so) that you do currently read from a few older passages in the Bible. If so, you are unlike 99% of evolutionists, who avoid the Bible like the plague and even discourage others from reading it. Indeed, the defining view of an evolutionist is his disdain for the Bible, despite its indisputable role as the most influential book, both in history and today. No person ignorant of it (as most evolutionists are) can be considered well-read or learned.--Andy Schlafly 22:35, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Andy, what about Confucian scholars? Can they, born in a non-western society, help that they have not had the same exposure to the Bible that you have? What you mean by "well-read" and "learned" is actually a reflection on what you consider worth reading. 4m4z1ng 10:32, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Mr Schlafly, you asserted that, "the defining view of an evolutionist is his disdain for the Bible, despite its indisputable role as the most influential book, both in history and today". With all due respect for your own personal opinions, Mr. Schlafly, this is a sweeping and really unfounded generalization that I feel is detrimental to the nature of the discussion here. I personally am a devout Catholic, and yet I firmly believe in the theory of evolution. In fact, the Catholic Church has accepted the theory of Evolution as an acceptable belief, so long as the idea of God as a prime mover is incorporated. To say that being an evolutionist automatically constitutes an individual who outwardly and totally rejects not just the Bible's value in a religious sense but also in a cultural and historical sense is a truly absurd and careless assumption. Indeed, I have had a great deal of friends and professors whom I have discussed the subject with, and even the most staunch atheists have generally agreed with the idea that the Bible is one of, if not the most historically and culturally significant text ever written. The way you attempt to make individuals who disagree with your own viewpoint seem like philistines is not just ignorant in its own right, it is downright childish. When you and others make broad-stroked stereotypes about the intellectual capacity of a large group of individuals, it only serves to harm your own ethos as an individual with an opinion to share. This has the potential to be a intelligent, reasonable forum for informed discussion of the issue from all viewpoints, but such immature generalizations prevent this page from achieving this potential. I hope that in the future, we can be more civil in discussion on this page, because many individuals are making intelligent points on both sides of the argument without resorting to political pandering. -- Pnino 20:24, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Pnino, you say "with all due respect," but you don't sound very respectful. You insult him, calling him childish and ignorant, and then advocate civil discussion. Feel free to take your name calling and hypocrisy elsewhere. JacobB 20:49, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

I don't get the criticisms of this project

Where were these critics when "the Message" "translation" came out? Where were they when the NIV people announced a new, more liberal version in the works? The double-standard is obvious. A liberal version of the Bible? "Ho-hum." Conservative version? "WHAT??? YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!! WHAT A JOKE!!!" Jinx McHue 18:00, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

You're right. The number one reason why most people are liberals is so that they can cling to a double standard.--Andy Schlafly 18:16, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

These people were silent, of course, when others created a "gender-neutral" Bible, a "green" Bible, and a "gay and lesbian" Bible (I kid you not). No problem with those versions. Evangelicals recently complained about the proposed TNIV, but were either ignored or ridiculed for their objections. It is, of course, because these people agree with those versions. They have no issue with people on their side of the political, social and moral spectrum creating those Bibles. People have been creating liberalized Bibles for decades, possibly even centuries, but the minute someone proposes a conservative Bible, the left blows their collective top. Jinx McHue 19:40, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

Footnotes and commentary

In deference to JoshuaZ, I suggest the use of a footnotes feature at the bottom of each article, describing certain words, their origins in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew, their meanings, etc, as well as a commentary feature. This information should be specific to each chapter. Karajou 01:02, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Minor contention on Commandment X

As someone with a love for the meaning and sounds of language and what it can be used for, and how good words claim the listener, I must take issue with taking Commandment X as a flat rule. I agree that empty words don't add anything, but sometimes an extra word or two can add a lot. To use an example close at hand (and even in the Commandment!), 'Lord God'. It'd get stale if it were used completely in place of Lord, but (to me at least) Lord God strikes me as a form of reference suitable for powerful and important moments. The Lord (or if you prefer the other form of address, God) listens to your prayers and cares for your soul, but the Lord God is about to deliver the Word unto you, and you'd better pay attention. Also, people are more likely to put a little more formality in addressing God if it's important. It's a matter of the right tone for the right occasion, and the Bible does indeed contain a lot of occasion, and therefore deserves to be translated with befitting tone to convey its events and messages more powerfully in the mind of the reader. Sometimes a word or two makes the difference there. Acm2 22:53, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Your point is well-taken, but it is also worth avoiding senseless repetition. Let's face it: soundbites are decreasing and conciseness is valued.--Andy Schlafly 23:52, 6 October 2009 (EDT)

Definitely avoid repetition. For the Lord/Lord God example, I'd use it when God is, well, showing people who they must listen to, or when people are beseeching/praying. Context, it all depends on context... Acm2 00:04, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

I'm open to your suggestions, and have already learned from them. Please feel free to translate some phrases as others have. Several of us are currently working on Gospel of Mark (Translated), and we're about half finished.--Andy Schlafly 00:06, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Should slavery be translated differently?

Is there another term for slavery that accurately describes what Biblical slavery was, without the pervasive racism and transatlantic slave trade?--Andy Schlafly 14:44, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

I don't know of another term at this point. St. Perpetua was the slave owner of St. Felicitas. There may be a deeper relationship; economic ties, survival, shelter, and family that may be able to explain slavery in that generation. [7] --Jpatt 14:52, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

It wasn't entirely race-based then, and there wasn't a massive slave trade. Slavery in Roman times was very different from antebellum slavery in America, which is what the word "slavery" means today.

I'm not saying a more precise alternative is available in English, but it's an issue to consider.--Andy Schlafly 15:02, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

I absolutely agree. Weren't Roman slaves prisoners of war? And weren't they free after a certain period? If both of these are true, then perhaps "indentured servant" would work. Yes, it has some connotations, but it's much less pejorative than "slavery." I'm trying to think of other words that might be good here, and coming up blank. JacobB 15:05, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Roman slaves weren't necessarily prisoners of war, and many (indeed most) of them never gained freedom. As a general rule, the only slaves who gained freedom held high positions in their master's household (for example as manager of the other slaves, or as a manager of finance) and it was very uncommon, to say the least, for your average food-bringing, vase-polishing, door-opening slave to gain freedom. If they took wives then any children they had were also slaves. DerickC 15:11, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

But Roman slaves did escape, I think, and perhaps frequently so. Indeed, I think Epistle to Philemon relates to an example around A.D. 60.

The point is that "slavery" today means an institution of racism. That is not what the Bible is talking about.--Andy Schlafly 15:13, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

While it's true that the word "slavery" today has racist connotations, the actual motivation behind slavery (extremely cheap labour for the buyers, profit for the sellers,and never mind the human chattel) is not racist and was much the same in Rome and America. Slaves in America escaped frequently too (The Underground Railroad, for example), so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there. DerickC 15:55, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

I think "slavery" in the historical American context is, broadly speaking, part-and-parcel with racism, but I don't think that slavery throughout history always meant enslaving those of a different race. My (admittedly non-expert) impression is that sometimes slaves were prisoners of war, sometimes those captured in far-off lands, sometimes children of slaves, sometimes the poor, etc. Of course it is easier to enslave someone who is perceived as inherently very different than the slave-owners. In America, the race aspect was pretty complex; for example some slaves were their masters' biological children, thus the need I suppose for the "one drop" rule.

"Slavery" today tends to be used to refer to situations where a usually poor, usually uneducated, sometimes in-the-country-illegally person is isolated from others and forced into labor (or worse). Slaves are kept essentially captive through force, intimidation, and/or illegal immigration status. Sometimes the law sides with the slave and prosecutes the slaveholder, but not always. Race is less likely to be a factor, though nationality is.
The term "prisoner of war" today involves widely-accepted rules as to how prisoners are to be treated; generally speaking they are not subject to forced labor or sexually abused, thus they are not considered to be slaves. I don't know if that was the case throughout history; I think it is likely that it was not the case.
It's difficult, isn't it?! Andy Schlafly, perhaps it would help if you could explain a bit more about Biblical slavery and how it differed from that of today and our country's experience in the past? --Hsmom 21:35, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

The primary meaning of "slavery" among most English-language speakers is the institution of racial slavery in the antebellum South. That's what we all think of when we hear "slavery". It just is. That is what the word now means, regardless of whether it should mean that.

That's not the meaning intended in the Bible. Slavery was not racial, and it was not an institution. "Prisoner of war" may be closer to the Roman meaning.

Our project seeks the original intent without political bias. Translating Roman (and pre-Roman) slavery into the appropriate English terminology that carries the same meaning is the challenge.--Andy Schlafly 21:51, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

"The primary meaning of "slavery" among most English-language speakers is the institution of racial slavery in the antebellum South. That's what we all think of when we hear "slavery". It just is. That is what the word now means, regardless of whether it should mean that." I am afraid not. The modern slave trade, while not that well established in the United States, is now so endemic in the rest of the world that today, English-speaking or not, slavery is now associated with three words: poor, dispossessed and vulnerable. Skin colour doesn't come into it as all too often today's slaves have come from areas of the world that have experienced a recent outbreak of war, lawlessness, famine or severe economic crisis. Indeed, so pernicious is the slave trade that were you to ask somebody living in the UK what slavery meant they would in all likely-hood answer East European and Russian women being illegally shipped into the UK to work as prostitutes, or male Chinese workers being illegally shipped into the country to work for gangmasters (the Chinese workers left to drown on a beach that they were combing for cockles being a good example).--DanHutchin 13:17, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

Rather extensive and helpful examination of slavery in the ANE as corresponds to that of our more recently memory here: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.htmlDaniel1212 15:09, 8 October 2009 (EDT)

Oversight?

This is a re-post of something I posted under the user name JF1971, before it was blocked for some reason.

---

I agree that many translations have added thoughts and words that were not in the original, inspired Word of God. I also agree that a new, more accurate translation is needed than what is available now. My concern for this project is oversight. A true translation of God's original Word should have continual (not occasional) consultations with the original texts. How can we insure total impartiality in the undertaking of this project. After all, the bible is not meant to be conservative, liberal or anything else.......it is God's Word.....nothing more...nothing less. It is not a political treatise that should be translated with a "conservative" filter, "liberal" filter, "ecological" filter or any other type of political filter. What safeguards are there to insure a lack of political bias of any type in this project?--ChrisBo 14:46, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

ChrisBo, I understand your concern that there be a continuous reference to the Greek. Be assured that those of us who have been doing a good deal of translating have been making constant and careful references to the Greek, and consulting Greek scholarly sources to maintain accuracy.

What you misunderstand, what many seem to misunderstand, is that we're not ADDING conservative thoughts and principles to the Bible, we're REVEALING them. The Bible is the ultimate document when it comes to conservatism, logic, reason, and morality, and we're attempting to show this better my removing the dillution of these principles that have crept in over the centuries of translations, or been introduced into once-excellent translations by the changing meanings of word. JacobB 14:55, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

...by, for instance, changing one perfectly good and easily-translated word to another, less savory, one when it suits your ideology, because you know what the author of Mark "really meant". --Jere7my 21:08, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

Without the chapter and verse, I have no idea what you're talking about, but "less savory" makes me believe you are talking about 6:28. Do you deny that "temptress" accurately describes her? Either contribute, or leave. JacobB 21:12, 7 October 2009 (EDT)

This discussion has opened my eyes: liberals don't like the word "temptress"! Wikipedia even redirects it! The ESV does not use the English word in its translation, not even once. I'm going to add it to Word Analysis of Bible. Every day is a new revelation in this project. Actually it's a dozen new revelations.--Andy Schlafly 21:42, 7 October 2009 (EDT)