Difference between revisions of "Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity"

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'''Attention: Please review previous points on the discussion page before adding your own commentary.  Many topics have been discussed many, many, times.  If you have something new to add, feel free, but it is not necessary or helpful to read the same arguments over and over and over.'''
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<big>'''For a point-by-point summary of this page, see [[Essay - Counterexamples to relativity points]].'''</big>
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See also the page [[Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity]]
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{{articletalkheader|prefix=archive}}
  
'''Raising arguments which have been discussed before wastes the time of valuable editors and repeatedly doing so violates 90/10.'''
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== Notice of Pending Revision ==
  
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It's been over a week now since the reversion (on 9<sup>th</sup> December) of several edits I made. Despite my request, now explanation has been posted, in contrast to the explanations I gave for each of my changes. I therefore see it only fit to return the article to the state I left it in.
  
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However, to avoid 'edit wars' I think it only fair to give notification of this, to allow a final chance for justification of the reversion.
  
Andy, can you clarify #4 for me?  I'm not sure I understand it. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:50, 28 November 2009 (EST)
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The specific changes are:
  
:Sure, I welcome discussion of these important points. As I've said, I have an open mind about this and if something is true, then I accept it.  But if something is false, I'll criticize it.
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*Removal of the item: ''''27. Relativity requires different values for the inertia of a moving object: in its direction of motion, and perpendicular to that direction. This contradicts the logical principle that the laws of physics are the same in all directions.'''' since it is a duplicate of ''''10. The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass -- does this act on the rest mass or the relativistic mass?''''
  
:The theory of relativity has taught for decades that as the velocity of a mass increases, then its (scalar) relativistic mass increases per the Lorentzian transformation.  Now apply a force ORTHOGONAL to the velocity. Does that force encounter the increased mass, as relativity says, or encounter the rest mass, as logic would dictate?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:02, 28 November 2009 (EST)
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*Removal of ''''26. The lack of useful devices developed based on any insights provided by the theory; no lives have been saved or helped, and the theory has not led to other useful theories and may have interfered with scientific progress. This stands in stark contrast with every verified theory of science.'''' After much discussion on this page, it seems generally agreed that there useful devices in existence. (I appreciate that some mention of GPS may be necessary, but a footnote, however valid, cannot justify the presence of the invalid section in the main article to which it is attached. GPS can have it's own separate entry on this page as a counterexample, if need be.)
  
::Ah, I see what you mean. May I suggest a re-wording?  "The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass."  I think that might be a little clearer than it is currently stated.  Your thoughts? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:06, 28 November 2009 (EST)
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[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:35, 31 December 2011 (EST)
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*Removal of ''''30. The Ehrenfest Paradox ...'''', ''''31. The Twin Paradox ...'''' and ''''10. The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle...'''' since these are paradoxes and (as discussed above) are not appropriate to a page of counterexamples. These entries have already been moved to and expanded upon in the main [[Relativity]] page.
  
:::Please do.  Your edits are always welcome, and you've suggested an improvement here.  Thank you for making this change.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:20, 28 November 2009 (EST)
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--[[User:QPR|QPR]] 10:26, 17 December 2011 (EST)
  
::Why would logic dictate that?  Mass is a scalar, and a force from any direction should encounter the same increased mass, not different masses from different directions.
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::I've now implemented these changes since no objection has been forthcoming to my explaination above, posted in accordance with [[Conservapedia:Editing_etiquette#Etiquette_Rule:|editting etiquette]]. If there are any objections please discuss them here rather than engaging in revert wars. --[[User:QPR|QPR]] 13:36, 30 December 2011 (EST)
  
::I suppose that under Newtonian mechanics, a moving object has a velocity of 0 within the plane perpendicular to its line of motion, and any forces operating in that plane will act on the object as if it is at restBut that's not what ''logic'' dictates, that's what the ''previous theory'' dictates.
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:::Sorry, just noticing these comments nowLet's discuss before removing insights from entries.
  
::Essentially your counterexample to relativity is that it makes a prediction that contradicts Newton's laws.   This is neithe r a contradiction nor a logical problem, and it is should be edited out.[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]
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:::Items 27 and 10 are similar, but not identical. 27 highlights a conflict between Relativity and basic principles of physics; item 10 emphasizes an internal contradiction in the theory that remains unanswered.
  
:::No, it's a logical problemIf you're suggesting that one force can affect the inertial in an entirely independent, orthogonal direction, that's illogical. One thing cannot affect something else that is entirely independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:40, 12 December 2009 (EST)
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:::Item 26 remains unrebuttedRelativity has produced nothing of value.
  
:::: Why is that illogical?  What logical principle does it violate?
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:::Item 30 and 31 are logical problems which are valid counterexamples, given that Relativity claims to be based on logic.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:58, 30 December 2011 (EST)
 
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:::: See, in relativity, orthogonal doesn't ''mean'' independent.  In relativity, velocity vectors ''do not add.''  In relativity, the effect of a new force is not independent of the object's existing momentum.  And there is nothing illogical about that; it's just a new theory that contradicts the intuition from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]
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::::: Ng, something cannot be independent (orthogonal) and yet dependent at the same timeUnfortunately, you're arguing with your own theory at this pointEven most relativity promoters have abandoned the position you take here.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:37, 12 December 2009 (EST)
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Items 10, 27, and 31 should be taken out because they are just wrong, and make Conservapedia look lazy.  Anyone who has learned about relativity from any college-level textbook less than about 40 or 50 years old knows how to do the calculations involving relativistic velocity, momentum, force, and accelerationOur readers know this, and items 10 and 27 will just leave them scratching their heads about the diligence of Conservapedia.  Item 31, the "twin paradox", is also very well known.  The fact that something has the word "paradox" in its name doesn't mean that the subject is flawedOtherwise, we would have to take the Russel paradox too seriously, and perhaps conclude that this: "The next sentence is false.  The preceding sentence is true" means that the universe will blow up.  The phrase "twin paradox" is simply a name.  Everyone knows what is going on.  Even Einstein.  If it were actually a counterexample, this fact would be well known by now.[[User:JudyJ|JudyJ]] 10:11, 31 December 2011 (EST)
  
::::::It seems that his point is that something can be orthogonal and dependent. I agree: The cross-product of two vectors is orthogonal to both and yet obviously dependent on both.  --[[User:EvanW|EvanW]] 21:41, 12 December 2009 (EST)
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*10: ''The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass - does this act on the rest mass or the relativistic mass? '' It applies to the relativistic mass: that is observable in a [[cyclotron]]. So, it is one of those question you may speculate or philosophy all day long, but do the experiment (and the mass), and it is answered.
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*27: ''Relativity requires different values for the inertia of a moving object: in its direction of motion, and perpendicular to that direction. This contradicts the logical principle that the laws of physics are the same in all directions. '' In light of the above, this seems to be wrong.
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*30: ''The Ehrenfest Paradox'' interesting paradox, solvable and no counterexample
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*31: ''The Twin Paradox'' no counterexample to relativity, it's solved in any physic's course on this subject
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*26: ''The lack of useful devices developed based on any insights provided by the theory'' please re-read the archives, they include plenty material on the GPS (though you seem to ignore it)
  
::::::: OK, good point, an orthogonal vector can be a function of other orthogonal vectors.  But that's a bit different from what we're discussing.  Here it's an orthogonal force that is not dependent on anything else, and yet Ng says it encounters relativistic mass due to a different orthogonal force.
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[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:36, 31 December 2011 (EST)
  
::::::: I think relativists have abandoned Ng's position, so he's really arguing with his own side at this point. As a result, I urge him to reconsider his views with an open mind once he confirms that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:59, 12 December 2009 (EST)
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On the points 10 and 27 issue, whilst they may or may not be duplicates, may or may not be counterexamples, they're still just plain wrong, reflecting a fundamental misunderstanding of the basics of relativity. According to Special Relativity, the inertial mass of a body appears the same to all observers who are in the same inertial frame of reference (i.e. who are moving at the same velocity as each other, which may be different from that of the body being observed). If a force is applied to the body it will produce an acceleration of the same magnitude (though obviously in a different direction) regardless of the direction of the force. The force itself can in no sense be an 'observer' since it has no velocity. For observers in a different non-inertial frame, they will observe a different magnitude of acceleration, but it will still be the same regardless of the direction of the force. --[[User:QPR|QPR]] 12:27, 31 December 2011 (EST)
  
:::::: First of all, relativity has not "abandoned" the prediction we're talking about.  The velocity addition formulas for both parallel and perpendicular velocities have not changed, and they still predict that an orthogonal force will have a harder time accelerating a fast-moving object. Physicists may have changed their informal interpretation of this formula, but not the formula itself, nor its predictions.
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I deleted #10 and #27. [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 11:06, 1 January 2012 (EST)
 
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:::::: Note also that relativity's prediction can't be all that illogical, because this is what we ''actually observe happening to particles at high speeds.''  If you think that fast-moving particles commit some terrible offense against basic logic, take it up with God. 
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:::::: There is a very simple way to settle this matter:  write an encyclopedia article where the material is properly sourced.  If this is indeed some counterexample or logical flaw in relativity, then one can easily find a book or paper exposing that flaw, and cite it.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 17:55:04 EST 2009
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:::::OK, I think I see part of the problem you people are having.  The word "independent" has two different meanings.  Being ''linearly'' independent is a concept from pure mathematics.  Being ''causally'' independent is an unrelated metaphysical concept.  Whether a force pushing on something causes it to move, and by how much, is completely, umm, independent of whether the vectors involved are linearly independent (orthogonal).  Please try to be very careful about the meanings of the terms. [[User:SaraT|SaraT]] 17:00, 13 December 2009 (EST)
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[[User:Aschlafly|Andy]], you've reverted an edit that everyone involved in the discussion other than yourself seems to be agreed upon. Can you please at least attempt to justify your position? --[[User:QPR|QPR]] 13:20, 1 January 2012 (EST)
  
:::::: I don't think that's the source of our confusion.  I think the main problem is that, according to Newtonian mechanics and thus according to our mechanical intuition, orthogonal things tend to operate independently.  Not only that, but a force exerted on an object is usually independent of the object's momentum.
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:''deletion of educational information is disfavored on this site; deletions restored'' How can the perpetuation of false information be educational? [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 15:37, 1 January 2012 (EST)
 
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:::::: In relativity, none of these things are true, due to the fact that velocities no longer add like vectors (and thus acceleration no longer incurs a cumulative change in velocity in the usual way.)  This is seen as some sort of logical flaw or paradox simply because it contradicts the deeply ingrained intuition that came from the previous theory.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Sun Dec 13 18:10:46 EST 2009
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::::::: Theories that don't produce anything useful are often a waste of time, or simply false. I realize that [[liberals]] tend to downplay accountability -- a [[Best New Conservative Words|conservative insight]], but theories should be accountable by what value they yield, particularly when taxpayer dollars are spent (wasted) on the theory.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:55, 7 January 2010 (EST)
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This entire page is ludicrous.  If you don't believe in Einstein's relativity, then do you believe in Galilean relativity? If Einstein's relativity is correct up to small corrections, does it invalidate cultural relativism?  Ironically, this page signifies to me that Conservapedia itself is an exercise in relative truth; the idea that individuals are entitled to make up whatever facts are consistent with their preconceptions.   [[User:Aram|Aram]] 16:26, 1 January 2012 (EST)
  
:::::::: I call gps a pretty darned useful invention but it doesn't work if you don't take into account relativistic effects.  I think that not knowing where relativity is used speaks volumes as to how close minded those trying to disprove relativity, which is different from relativism.  (a point completely overlooked by the page) [[User:Gaurdro|Gaurdro]] 12:31, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
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== Relativity breaks down if a [[solenoid]] is traveling at or near the speed of light. ==
  
== Counterexample 4 (limiting behavior) ==
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As a source for the statement [http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3244279 this discussion] on physicsforum.org is given. Here are all the contributions to this discussion:
  
For the fourth "counterexample," the author points out that the momentum <math>p=mv\gamma</math> does not approach the momentum of light as <math>m\rightarrow 0</math> and <math>v\rightarrow c</math>
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{|
   
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!A Dhingra
Aside from the mathematical sloppiness of taking two independent variables to a limit at the same time, at unspecified rates, these sorts of "discontinuities" can be found in just about any scientific theory. In Newtonian mechanics, for example, take the orbit of a planet as the planet's mass goes to 0.  For any nonzero mass the orbit is an ellipse; at m=0 it is suddenly a straight line. Is this a "counterexample" to Newton's laws?
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|The moment the magnetic field is generated, it should take some time to reach some distance. It cannot reach infinity instantly, it should have some speed, and that speed cannot be more than that of light. So let’s say that the newly generated magnetic field, through a current carrying wire, travels with the speed of light. Now for the application of the faraday’s law, let’s bring a magnet near a solenoid, through which initially no current flows, and make the magnet move with the speed of light. Will there be electromagnetic induction observed in this case?
  
Or in electronics, I=V/R. The limiting case is no voltage, no resistance, no current; but if someone foolishly took V/R as both V and R go to zero, he would get a nonsensical answer. Let them both go at the same rate and you get I=1. Is this a "counterexample" to basic electronics?
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Take another case, when instead of a magnet we have a different circuit containing a solenoid through which current flows when the switch is made on, and this circuit is held stationary moving the other one with the speed of light. Will there be electromagnetic induction observed in this case? What I think is that, as the system without current is moving as fast as the magnetic field … it never gets the chance to cut the magnetic field and cause induction to occur in the solenoid. So there should be no induction. But there is relative motion between the two systems and (also there is NO time varying magnetic field through the moving solenoid,)AND no induced current will be produced ...
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so will the induction take place or not...??
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if induction does not take place then the principle or relativity goes wrong......
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|-
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!DaleSpam
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|You cannot make a magnet move with the speed of light. It is a physically impossible premise, so you shouldn't be surprised that assuming it leads to contradictions.
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|-
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!A Dhingra
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|... can't it be just a thought experiment like many other paradoxes available....
  
Or more to the point, momentum in Newtonian mechanics is <math>p=mv</math>, and this also fails to give the momentum of a photon at m=0, v=c. Again, is that a "counterexample" to <math>p=mv</math>?  Will we see this entry in a corresponding page of "Counterexamples to Newton's laws?" 
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with that assumption, think about the result.......
           
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But none of these are counterexamples or "discontinuities":  they are just a misinterpretation of the formulas. You don't get the momentum of a photon by taking the momentum formula for a mass and setting m=0 and v=c.  That's just not what the formula means, or what they are for. This item should also be removed.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]] Tue Dec 15 10:16:21 EST 2009
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!DaleSpam
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|Obviously, if you violate the principle of relativity in your question then the answer must be that the principle of relativity is violated. It is just the most basic logic. Non-physical assumptions lead to non-physical conclusions. This says nothing whatsoever about physics, only about your question.
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!A Dhingra
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|ok........
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i agree that the situation is not realistic........
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but still i didn't like the fact that one should not think beyond the laws made by humans himself.......
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|-
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!DaleSpam
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|This is elementary logic. If you have any set of axioms (A) which logically imply some result (B) then if your premise is not(B) then you must logically conclude not(A). This is called transposition and is one of the fundamental rules of logic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposition_(logic)
  
== Counterexample 9 (Jesus action-at-a-distance) ==
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SR logically implies that a solenoid must move slower than light (STL), therefore if you assume that a solenoid can move with the speed of light you must logically conclude that special relativity (SR) is violated. Written in the usual format for logic:
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(SR → STL) ↔ (~STL → ~SR)
  
The quoted verse doesn't strongly suggest "action-at-a-distance" in the relativistic sense. Light could travel the distances mentioned in the passage in a fraction of a second, which is well within the precision given in the verse (an hour). The verse and relativity are not in contradiction here. This should be removed.
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Whether or not the situation is realistic and whether or not SR is a "law made by humans himself" is actually only a secondary concern. This is primarily an exercise in basic logic. Note that I am agreeing with your OP. Under the stated premise (~STL) you must indeed logically conclude that "the principle of relativity goes wrong" (~SR).
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|-
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!vector22
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|to make the experiment fair you would have to calculate what would happen to the solenoid at half light speed and then go from there.
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!netheril96
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|If you want to think beyond relativity, invent your own laws of physics. If you want to explain in terms of relativity, then think within relativity.
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|-
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!A Dhingra
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|can you help me go about finding this result......
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(considering the magnetic field to be varying with time ...... as it is getting produced ...
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|}
  
:I have an open mind about it.  In the the healing of the centurion's servant, if the Greek is translated as same "moment" then relativity is impossible, but if translated as the same "hour" then there is no conflict with relativity.
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How does this discussion support the claim? This source seems to be unsuitable and therefore it should be deleted, and the statement marked again to be unsourced.
  
:But the healing of the centurion's servant is probably not the only place where there is [[action at a distance]] in the [[Bible]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:52, 5 January 2010 (EST)
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[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 02:00, 2 January 2012 (EST)
  
::Any distance on the earth is less than 20,000km. A force acting with the speed of light takes less than 1/15,000 &asymp; 0.0000667 seconds for this distance.
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== Previous arguments ==
  
::I don't think how eyewitnesses could spot such a short time...
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I'm creating a page [[Essay - Counterexamples to relativity points]], the purpose of this is to ensure that arguments are not repeated by people who find the article, not realising that their objections have already been discussed, and removed as part of a cleanup of the talkpage. The page is NOT a place to make points, but a place to see if your objection has already been made, and save everybody time by reading the responses yourself, and then bringing up the objection only if you have a new point to make. Because the numbers for counterexamples change, the page will not include the number of the counterexample, only the text of it. Although I will try to put them in order. I know that to begin with, many old arguments will not be included, but hopefully it will eventually become a very useful resource for those wishing to make contributions to the page. - [[User:JamesCA|JamesCA]] 21:29, 4 January 2012 (EST)
  
::So, there may probably be no other places where [[action at a distance]] is described in the [[Bible]].
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While I appreciate the positive intent behind this idea, I do fear that it risks making Conservapedia look even sillier in this area than it already does. The problem is the implicit suggestion that this new page is in any way 'definitive'. Given that the issues surrounding Einsteinian Relativity have been discussed across the planet for over a century, and that the results of those discussions are available on-line, in textbooks and elsewhere, then it is unlikely that anyone will give a page on Conservapedia very much credence, particularly if it is seen to support this page, which puts forth views that very few with an understanding of the field share.
  
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 16:17, 5 January 2010 (EST)
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: The real problem is that the counterexamples page itself is not a genuine encyclopaedia entry, but the personal fiefdom of one contributor with little understanding of the subject matter and a bee in his bonnet about a spurious connection between Einsteinian Relativity and Moral Relativism. Unfortunately that contributor has administrator privileges, which he finds more effective in making his case than resorting to rational argument. Perhaps it would be better if the counterexamples page itself became an essay page, to make absoultely clear that it presents a personal point of view. --[[User:QPR|QPR]] 10:06, 5 January 2012 (EST)
  
:::You make an interesting point, Frank.  But according to this site, it takes 1/7.4 seconds for light to circle the globe, which is much longer than your figure.[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_times_does_light_go_around_the_Earth_in_one_second]  More generally and more importantly, there is the issue of how this action in the Bible ''isn't'' light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)
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:: Anyone who finds Conservapedia silly because of this page will not think it is any sillier because of the new page. For many who see this page, it is a joke, and won't think any less of it because of the new page. The problem with turning this page into an essay is that those who support this page believe that it is not merely a page of personal opinion, but factually accurate. Perhaps I should put a disclaimer at the top of the page then? Something like 'this should not be seen as approving of the counterexamples, but as approval of productive discussion concerning the points'. Also, it should be noted that at the moment, every counterexample listed on the new page have outstanding objections to them, which have not been answered. - [[User:JamesCA|JamesCA]] 21:05, 5 January 2012 (EST)
  
::::Indeed, an error in my calculation: 20,000,000m / 300,000,000 m/sec = 1/15 seconds.
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::::I hate to go raining on the parade again here, but science is argued by evidence--it is not enough to produce a counter example and highlight the "god of the gaps".  There are paradoxical observations under any established paradigm in any field.  This does not mean that the entire paradigm is incorrect, simply that there are gaps in the evidence that must be addressed in order to improve extant models.  This is the primary reason that trained scientists find this page silly.  There are tons of holes in relativity, just as there were massive holes in Darwin's original theory of natural selection (as a biologist, I am far more familiar with how the latter example has been, quite successfully, addressed), the notion that "there are some discrepancies with theory X, therefore goddidit" is an obvious logical fallacy.  Rather than poking holes in an outdated model, it is far more scientific to argue in favor of an alternate model using evidence.  The central caveat here, and one that must be carefully beaten out of every experiment, is that evidence cannot be approached with the intention of supporting a particular hypothesis--a model must be built around the evidence, not the other way around.  That's why scientists laugh at the term "creation science", science is not about hunting for evidence in support of a pre-formed theory, it is about impartially collecting evidence and then letting said evidence speak for itself.
::::Fast enough, still.
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::::Whether the action in the Bible ''isn't'' light doesn't matter: it is indistinguishable from an action happening at the speed of light for the witnesses of the time, so it doesn't say anything about the validity of the theory of relativity...
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::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 19:46, 5 January 2010 (EST)
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:::::Frank you make an interesting point, and I have an open mind about it.  But I'm not entirely convincedWhen the woman cured herself of bleeding and Jesus felt power leaving him, that sounds more like heat than light.  And for heat to travel virtually instantaneously (or at the speed of light) WOULD violate the theory of relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:48, 5 January 2010 (EST)
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::::Having said that.  I must acknowledge that this article is not explicitly (although, it is implied) about advancing one viewpoint over another--it is simply about highlighting perceived inconsistencies in the theory of relativityBy itself, that is not a ridiculous premise at allHowever, because this page is more of an editorial than an academic encyclopedia article, this page itself probably should have been classified as an "essay" to begin with. --[[User:RudrickBoucher|RudrickBoucher]] 14:13, 6 January 2012 (EST)
  
::::::Yes, it would.  And it would also violate classical physics, the laws of thermodynamics etc.
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::::: In my opinion, the article is really a list of anomalies and paradoxes, not counterexamples. The anomalies are observations that need some additional explanation, and that may or may not require an adjustment to relativity. The paradoxes seem like contradictions or contrary to common sense, but have explanations. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 00:58, 7 January 2012 (EST)
  
::::::But of course a miracle is going to violate the laws of physicsI don't see how this can be cited to discredit one physical theory over another.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]
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:::::: If someone thinks that Relativity '''''must''''' be true as a matter of logic, then any and all evidence to the contrary is not going to change that view"Paradox" might be an appropriate term for ostensible contradictions in logic.  But the terms "paradox" and "anomaly" are not suitable for observable science.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 19:00, 7 January 2012 (EST)
  
I have to respectfully disagree with you on that point, Andy - I'm not sure this action could comment on relativity any more than the sun stopping for Joshua could comment on the Copernican model of the solar system. If God wanted heat/light to travel at some finite speed except in certain instances, how is that different from the sun and moon moving in the sky, except in certain instances? [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 21:32, 5 January 2010 (EST)
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::::::: No, it is the term "true as a matter of logic" that is not suitable for observable science. Perhaps your real complaint is with those who push scientific statements as being true as a matter of logic. If so, I suggest renaming the article to "Counterexamples to Einsteinian thinking". [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 01:09, 8 January 2012 (EST)
  
: I have an open mind about this. You make good points, Jacob.  But your analogy is not perfect because:
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:::::::: I think at least one major college teaches Relativity as a course in the math department rather than being listed primarily in the physics department.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:28, 8 January 2012 (EST)
  
*the Joshua account might be understood as the ''perception'' of the army that they sun did not set until they completed their job, but the healing in the [[New Testament]] cannot be explained as mere perception
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:::::: If the terms "paradox" and "anomaly" are not suitable for observable science, what are they doing on this page? --[[User:QPR|QPR]] 17:26, 8 January 2012 (EST)
*if the Joshua account is taken absolutely literally, Newtonian mechanics does not say it is impossible, while relativity does say [[action-at-a-distance]] is impossible
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I look forward to our translation work on the Joshua passage (and New Testament passages) to see if that brings forth insights.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:30, 5 January 2010 (EST)
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::::::::Strictly speaking, all sciences are "observational" sciences; the semantic distinction between observational science and experimental science is arbitrary at bestEven in a tightly-controlled experiment, the goal is still to ''observe'' the outcome of the experiment in order to make some inference about the processes involvedIn other words, an experiment is intended as nothing more than an indirect observation of natural phenomena that are not readily directly observable.
:Your second point is a good one, and I suppose my example wasn't very goodBut on a different note, what makes you say that the Joshua account might be understood as only a perception of the army?  I think I'm going to go translate that chapeter, I'll be interested to see what Hebrew words are used for that bit. [[User:JacobB|JacobB]] 22:49, 5 January 2010 (EST)
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::Shall we look at it next? Joshua 10:11-14, I think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:18, 5 January 2010 (EST)
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IMO, the discussion is a little bit bizarre: Following [[David Hume]]'s definition of a [[miracle]] as a "a violation of the laws of nature", for evaluating the ''laws of natures'', miracles can't be taken into account.
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::::::::A "paradox", by the most reductive definition, is when the available evidence suggests two contradictory hypotheses.  Whereas an "anomaly" is an observation that does not conform to the hypothesis suggested by the previously available evidence.  Both of these terms are quite appropriate to use in any scientific or logical context.  When a scientist encounters a paradox or an anomaly, it implies that there is a fundamental gap in the theoretical understanding of his or her field.  Seeking out evidence to address these gaps allows for scientists to adjust their theoretical models in order to more precisely explain the observed phenomena. --[[User:RudrickBoucher|RudrickBoucher]] 22:32, 8 January 2012 (EST)
  
As I said earlier: we shouldn't try to restrict God with the laws of our logic - or even physics.
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RudrickBoucher, since we already established that you are not a biologist, shouldn't you say "as someone who likes to pretend to be a biologist". [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 20:59, 8 January 2012 (EST)
  
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 07:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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:::::::::Conservative, I have a BS in cell and molecular biology (CMB) from the top undergraduate CMB program in the country, several years of laboratory experience doing developmental biology research, just as many publications (a couple of which, I first-authored), I also have teaching experience in introductory biology (AP biology and college-level intro bio), graduate level course-work in developmental biology, and, as of this coming fall, I will either be a first-year medical student or a developmental biology PhD candidate (I've been accepted into programs for both, but not a combined MD/PhD program just yet).  In short, I am allowed to call myself a "biologist" because it is my profession--it may sound pretentious, but it saves on typing. --[[User:RudrickBoucher|RudrickBoucher]] 22:32, 8 January 2012 (EST)
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RudrichBoucher, a profession is something one does to earn money and have a net positive cash flow, while students often invest money in education and often have low earnings or debt accumulation. Perhaps you should consider taking an introductory course in finance so you better understand the concepts of cash flow and investment! :) I would also suggest taking a course in ethics at a Christian university so you no longer claim to be a biologist and then retract that claim like you did at this wiki. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 22:48, 8 January 2012 (EST)
 +
::::::::::::I was paid for my research and for the teaching.  Although, admittedly, not very well for either (as neither science nor teaching pays particularly well).  I retracted the claim on the "15 questions" essay only after you had already edited it--in the name of diplomatically avoiding a pointless edit war.  Similarly, I referenced my biological inclination above as a gesture of humility, to admit that my background in physics is relatively limited.  On that note, what are your credentials?  Have you spent seven years meticulously learning a specific field like I have?  Have you published any papers?  Are you a member of any professional research societies?  Admittedly, I have at least another six years of education to go, but I can legitimately claim some level of expertise in my field.  I don't say these things to brag, say them to lend credibility to my arguments.  Finally, as I've mentioned before, I was raised Catholic and I spent my first two years of college at a Methodist school--where I did have the privilege of taking an ethics class (and I very much enjoyed it).  So please, let's cut the ad hominem attacks and focus on the discussion at hand. --[[User:RudrickBoucher|RudrickBoucher]] 23:44, 8 January 2012 (EST)
  
:Frank, perhaps what you mean is that you don't want the logic of the Bible to be used to evaluate claims by scientists. If so, I completely disagree. And so would [[Isaac Newton]] and most great scientists.
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::::::: Of those who credit Einstein for relativity, they often argue that Einstein's approach was superior because he ignored observations and presented relativity as being something that must be true as a matter of logic. The Einstein scholars acknowledge that Lorentz and Poincare had all the relativity formulas before Einstein, but Lorentz and Poincare were not true believers because they conceded that the theory could be disproved by experiment.
 +
::::::: So the case could be made that there is an Einsteinian-relativity-philosophy that is a is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions, that is based on postulates taken on faith, and that ignores experimental evidence. If so, then maybe the page should be explicit about what is being attacked. All real science is based on experimental evidence. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 21:19, 8 January 2012 (EST)
  
:As our [[Conservative Bible Translation]] project is revealing, Jesus said his works were not miracles, but signsSo any definition of miracle by Hume (who, by the way, leaned toward atheistic rather than Christianity) is not terribly helpful.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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:::::::::RSchlafly, please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that even Einstein considered relativity to be a mathematical approximationOne that precisely, but still somewhat inaccurately, explained the then-available evidence; in a manner similar to the proverbial physicist who, for ease of calculation, treats a horse as a circle.  Anybody who has taken more than a year of calculus-based physics (or, even introductory college astronomy), knows the very real limitations of relativity.  If anything, these limitations are just as dogmatic as relativity itself.  Therefore, the notion that questioning relativity is taboo in intellectual circles (an underlying premise of this page) is patently ridiculous.  Poking holes in relativity, and then seeking to explain them, has been one of the great ongoing projects in physics for the past seventy years. --[[User:RudrickBoucher|RudrickBoucher]] 22:32, 8 January 2012 (EST)
  
::So, what's the definition of a ''sign'', then? [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 08:06, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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:::::::::: I agree that questioning relativity is not taboo. The 2011 Nobel Prize in physics was for observations that caused a modification of general relativity. The biggest physics story of the year was the Italian claim that neutrinos go faster than light, contrary to relativity. Physicists often talk about replacing relativity with some unified field theory or quantum theory. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 02:51, 9 January 2012 (EST)
  
:::The same as its name suggests: a disclosure of reality, rather than a violation of it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 08:35, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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:::::::::::: That makes me wonder why there isn't a "Counterexamples to Quantum Mechanics" page here as well. --[[User:RudrickBoucher|RudrickBoucher]] 09:11, 9 January 2012 (EST)
  
 +
:::::::::::: There are a lot of anomalies and paradoxes in quantum mechanics also. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 18:05, 9 January 2012 (EST)
  
::::*I took Hume's definition as I found it on conservapedia's page on [[miracle]]s.
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== A few more things ==
::::*The page on [[sign]]s doesn't describe Jesu works - perhaps you can fix this
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::::*If you don't like Hume, what's about [[Thomas Aquinas]]:
+
  
:::::''Now, there are various degrees and orders of these miracles. Indeed, the highest rank among miracles is held by those events in which something is done by God which nature never could do. For example, that two bodies should be coincident; that the sun reverse its course, or stand still; that the sea open up and offer a way through which people may pass. And even among these an order may be observed. For the greater the things that God does are, and the more they are removed from the capacity of nature, the greater the miracle is. Thus, it is more miraculous for the sun to reverse its course than for the sea to be divided.
+
All right, more problems with this article:
  
:::::''Then, the second degree among miracles is held by those events in which God does something which nature can do, but not in this order. It is a work of nature for an animal to live, to see, and to walk; but for it to live after death, to see after becoming blind, to walk after paralysis of the limbs, this nature cannot do—but God at times does such works miraculously. Even among this degree of miracles a gradation is evident, according as what is done is more removed from the capacity of nature.
+
<blockquote>
 +
15. The failure to discover gravitons, despite wasting hundreds of millions in taxpayer money in searching.
 +
<br />18. The inability of the theory to lead to other insights, contrary to every verified theory of physics.
 +
<br />24. The theory predicts natural formation of highly ordered (and thus low entropy) black holes despite the increase in entropy required by the Second Law of Thermodynamics
 +
</blockquote>
 +
15: General relativity ''does not predict gravitons!'' Gravitons are massless spin-two particles predicted by QFT that lead to linear GR. (Though the spirit is different; in QFT, the h's--the metric perturbations--are a tensor representing field strength on a background Minkowski spacetime. In GR these represent curvature in spacetime.)
 +
<br />18: Untrue--Consider the Dirac equation. It predicted spin, which was not predicted by Schrodinger theory. It also predicted negative energy states (antiparticles), and QFT has been fundamental to particle physics.
 +
<br />24: Yet another horrible misunderstanding. Consider an ideal gas with N particles. Assume the total number of particles is conserved (it obviously doesn't have to be, but this is an idealized case). First of all, Newtonian gravity also predicts that a star will contract to a point without hydrostatic pressure--due to their mutual gravitational attraction. Should we start a "counterexamples to gravity" page? You've forgotten one thing: ''there's a term in the expression for the entropy that involves thermal energy!!!'' In other words (roughly speaking) the gas "warms up" so that the second law of thermodynamics is not violated. [[User:AndyFrankinson|AndyFrankinson]] 20:43, 8 January 2012 (EST)
  
:::::''Now, the third degree of miracles occurs when God does what is usually done by the working of nature, but without the operation of the principles of nature. For example, a person may be cured by divine power from a fever which could be cured naturally, and it may rain independently of the working of the principles of nature.
+
::Very well said!  While I'm in a commenting-frenzy, I'd like to add to your points.
  
::::*Acts 2:43 ''Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles'' (KJB) So, we have ''miraculous signs'' and ''wonders''
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::'''Re: #15.''' It's not a waste of time or money to reject a hypothesis.  To quote Enrico Fermi, "If the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement.  If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery."
  
::::*John 2:11 ''This was the first of the miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and by doing showed his glory, and so his disciples believed in him. '' (CBP) ''Changing water into wine'' is something nature never could do: it's an outright miracle, miraculous sign, whatever...
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::'''Re: #18.''' Relativity HAS led to other [http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic/relativity/discoveries-relativity-made-possible.htm|insights].
  
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:00, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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::'''Re: #24.'''  The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems.  In the case of stellar black hole formation, gravitational pressure must exceed the sum of the thermal pressure, supplied by ongoing fusion in the stellar core, and the core degeneracy pressure, provided courtesy of the Pauli exclusion principle.  Achieving this condition is, necessarily, a very violent event, complete with giant explosions, gamma ray bursts, and spewing jets of super-heated gas.  When considering the entirety of the system giving rise to a black hole, and not just the resulting black hole itself, entropy certainly ''does'' increase. --[[User:RudrickBoucher|RudrickBoucher]] 23:19, 8 January 2012 (EST)
  
:::::That's great recitation, Frank, but how about simply applying logic yourself?  You're a bright guy, why simply hunt and repeat quotes from others?  On this site we encourage ''thinking'' in a logical way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:21, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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:::Hello! Thanks for the comments.  And sorry about #24, like I said, the model I gave is slightly idealized b/c I haven't studied the subject in detail. [[User:AndyFrankinson|AndyFrankinson]] 07:58, 9 January 2012 (EST)
  
::::::I'm trying to use the fact that I'm standing on the shoulder of giants... [[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 09:23, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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:::::No problem, I was in a bit of a commenting frenzy anyway.  I'm guessing, because you referred to the ideal gas law, that you have some chemistry background?
  
:::::::How about using "the fact" of simple logic and the power of your ''own'' mind?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 09:27, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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:::::Also, I've had students throw the second law of thermodynamics at me when I'm trying to explain evolution.  The Earth's surface isn't a closed system either because it's constantly receiving energy from the sun--so the second law of thermodynamics is inapplicable there as well.  The only truly closed system that I can think of is in Washington...and, yes, entropy there is ''always'' increasing! --[[User:RudrickBoucher|RudrickBoucher]] 09:05, 9 January 2012 (EST)
  
::::::::To make it as clear as possible in my own words:
+
::::::Actually, I'm terrible at chemistry! My background is in physics and math. You talk about ideal gasses in any physics class where you discuss thermodynamics. But yeah, that's one of the classical misunderstandings among creationists. One thing I saw suggested that next time someone brings it up, ask them about the other laws of thermodynamics. What I also like about the second law of thermodynamics argument is that they don't seem to understand what entropy ''is'' and ''why'' it increases. So yeah, next time someone brings it up ask them about those things. [[User:AndyFrankinson|AndyFrankinson]] 20:18, 9 January 2012 (EST)
::::::::*I won't restrict God by laws which men made or observed. Can I understand God's ways? Can I expect God to act the way I think to be logical? That would be [[hubris]].
+
::::::::*Testing scientific hypotheses using God's miracles or signs seems to be odd!
+
::::::::But which part of Thomas Aquinas's definition of miraculous events didn't you like? Granted, he had a slightly other view of the ''capacity of nature'' than we have today, but his line of reasoning was as valid in the 15th century as it is today! I hoped that his definition would be more ''helpful'' than that of David Hume.
+
  
::::::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:41, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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:::::::Can I please delete these "counterexamples"? [[User:AndyFrankinson|AndyFrankinson]] 20:32, 12 January 2012 (EST)
  
A miraculous healing seems to violate the [[Second Law of Thermodynamics]] - whether it happens on a distance or not. Does this mean that [[John 4:46-54]] is a counterexample to the laws of thermodynamics, too?
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::::::::I say go for it. You've justified why they should be deleted and your justification has met with no objection.  If somebody wishes to restore them, they are welcome to object here.
[[User:PhilG|PhilG]] 09:58, 2 February 2010 (EST)
+
  
: How so?  Do you think eating an apple to feel better, or taking an aspirin to alleviate a headache, also violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:02, 2 February 2010 (EST)
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::::::::As an aside, there does seem to be a disproportionate number of math and physics types on here.  It is interesting how the life sciences tend to be predominantly liberal, whereas there's a more even distribution of political ideology in the physical sciences.  There are conservative biologists (my old PI, for example), but they are very few and very far between.  Knowledge of evolution does not seem to be a factor here, because understanding / acceptance of evolution is nearly universal in all of the sciences.  In biology, there is a (seemingly true, in my experience) stereotypical "personality" in each of the sub-disciplines; to reference other fields, the age-old dichotomy between chemists and chemical engineers seems to mostly hold true.  I have always wondered if the "personality" of the fields would lead to the observed political differences, or if maybe there is something deeper.
  
== lack of a single useful device ==
+
::::::::Because I am afraid that my above observation may be taken grossly out of context, I must add to it the disclaimer that I am not in any way suggesting "indoctrination" of students in one field versus another (or making some other similarly fatuous insinuation).  I am simply making an observation, and speculating on its possible cause. --[[User:RudrickBoucher|RudrickBoucher]] 21:25, 12 January 2012 (EST)
  
At conservapedia's article on the [[Global Positioning System]], one can read:
+
These counterexamples are not adequately rebutted above:
  
''These receivers rely on precisely timing signals sent from GPS satellites, with corrections for atmospheric attenuation and relativistic effects.''
+
15. The failure to discover gravitons, despite wasting hundreds of millions in taxpayer money in searching.
  
GPS seems to be a useful device!
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:If Relativists are not even going to accept the results of experiments that cost hundreds of millions of dollars, then they '''''are''''' a waste of money.
  
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 10:53, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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18. The inability of the theory to lead to other insights, contrary to every verified theory of physics.
  
:Great catch of a misleading statement, Frank!  I've corrected it.
+
:If you can give examples in your own words, then please do.
  
:Our [[theory of relativity]] entry explains how it did not aid the development of [[GPS]].  The repeated attempt by relativists to falsely claim credit for [[GPS]] ''reinforces'' the lack of any legitimate contributions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:29, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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24. The theory predicts natural formation of highly ordered (and thus low entropy) black holes despite the increase in entropy required by the Second Law of Thermodynamics
  
::Well, you are consistent! Just another question: What's about [[particle accelerator]]s? Generally, the theory of relativity is used to explain why it takes more energy to accelerate an electron from 200,000,000 m/sec to 200,002,000 m/sec than from 2,000 m/sec to 4,000 m/sec.
+
:This statement is true also.  The dramatic decrease in entropy predicted by Relativity is contrary to the Second Law.  No known mechanism offsets that decrease.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:39, 12 January 2012 (EST)
  
::Have you thought about an explanation for this phenomenon?
+
:::'''re: 15.''' The existence of gravitons was hypothesized in an attempt to reconcile relativity with quantum mechanics.  General relativity, by itself, does not predict the existence of gravitons.  Furthermore, money spent testing a hypothesis that is ultimately not supported is not "wasted" (otherwise, I'd be out of a job)--the knowledge gained in testing the hypothesis allows a better hypothesis to be formulated. 
  
::Accelerators have applications beyond basic research!
+
:::'''re: 18.''' General relativity correctly predicted gravitational lensing, the existence of black holes, and the accelerating expansion of the universe.  Additionally (and this is the first example that I can come up with off of the top of my head, RSchlafly probably knows a few better ones), relativistic effects must be compensated for to maximize the accuracy of satellite-based GPS systems.
  
::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 12:02, 6 January 2010 (EST)
+
:::'''re: 24.''' Black hole formation results in a net increase in entropy when considering the system as a whole.  If you were to consider just the mass of the resultant black hole as a closed system, the degeneracy forces outweigh the net gravitational force significantly enough to prevent collapse into a schwarzschild radius.  In just overcoming this by itself (as theoretically happens in super-massive black holes), there would be a massive output of emitted particles (radiation), which would still result in a net increase in the entropy of the system.
  
:::Frank, I have an open mind about this, but I'm not aware of a single benefit from what you describe, nor do you identify oneDo you have an open mind about this?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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:::These counterexamples are not validPlain and simple. --[[User:RudrickBoucher|RudrickBoucher]] 01:10, 13 January 2012 (EST)
  
::::*Synchrotron radiation is [http://www.physik.uni-kiel.de/kfs/Anwendung/medicine.php used in medicine]
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:::: General relativity did not predict the accelerating expansion of the universe. It predicted that the expansion would be slowing. Most physicists say that the GR equations must be modified to accommodate the accelerating expansion.
::::*So, may I ask again:  what your explanation for the phenomenon? I suppose you are aware of the phenomenon I described above?
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:::: I don't get the entropy argument. I always assumed that a black hole would have all the entropy of the collapsing star and matter falling in. Is there a source for saying that black holes have low entropy? As the footnote says, Hawking has an explanation. Is there something wrong with that explanation? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 04:29, 13 January 2012 (EST)
::::[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 15:47, 6 January 2010 (EST)
+
  
:::::Frank, inventors and doctors and engineers don't typically even bother learning relativity. Should I repeat that?  Complain to engineering departments and medical schools if you think that should change. Nothing useful has even been designed or built using relativity. If you want to look and look and look for a counterexample then you'll be wasting your time. I'm not going to waste mine. This is my final reply on this topic for now. Do something logical, such as editing the Bible, and after benefiting from that experience we can revisit this issue in a month or so.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:52, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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:::::Um...I ''did'' address all your concerns, Andy....
  
::::::Why does it matter whether the users of the invention learn relativity?  Most users of microwaves never learn Maxwell's equations either.  That doesn't mean that the laws are irrelevant to the gadget's operation.
+
<blockquote>
 +
These counterexamples are not adequately rebutted above:
  
::::::Likewise, the engineers who correct the clocks of GPS satellites may not know or care that relativistic effects are behind the clock skew.  But that dodges the point that relativistic effects are real, observable, and must be corrected for in several useful inventions.--[[User:NgSmith|NgSmith]]
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15. The failure to discover gravitons, despite wasting hundreds of millions in taxpayer money in searching.
  
:::::::Here's a good source: [http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf | US Navy].  As for engineers not bothering to learn relativity, I think that's a mite off the mark. I'm an engineer and I had to take a class dealing with the basics of SR, and I'm just an electrical engineer.  Aerospace engineers certainly deal with relativity a great deal, as do nuclear engineers. [[User:DanieleGiusto|DanieleGiusto]] 00:26, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
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:If Relativists are not even going to accept the results of experiments that cost hundreds of millions of dollars, then they '''''are''''' a waste of money. '''Wait, gravitons are predicted by GR?! Please send me a link to the derivation!!!'''
  
== GPS revisited ==
+
18. The inability of the theory to lead to other insights, contrary to every verified theory of physics.
  
The same Tom von Flandern who is quoted in the article on the [[theory of relativity]] saying that the GPS programmers "have basically blown off Einstein", wrote in an article in 1998:
+
:If you can give examples in your own words, then please do. '''I did!!!! Not to be rude, but did you see what I wrote above? Dirac equation! Spin! Antiparticles! Quantum Field theory! Particle physics! The Standard Model!'''
  
''So we can state that the clock rate effect predicted by GR is confirmed to within no worse than ±200 / 45,900 or about 0.7%, and that predicted by SR is confirmed to within ±200 / 7,200 or about 3%. This is a very conservative estimate. In an actual study, most of that maximum 200 ns/day variance would almost certainly be accounted for by differences between planned and achieved orbits, and the predictions of relativity would be confirmed with much better precision.''
+
24. The theory predicts natural formation of highly ordered (and thus low entropy) black holes despite the increase in entropy required by the Second Law of Thermodynamics
  
As for how the satellites take into account the relativistic effects, here is his explanation of the so-called ''factory offset'' of the atomic clocks for the satellites:
+
:This statement is true also.  The dramatic decrease in entropy predicted by Relativity is contrary to the Second Law.  No known mechanism offsets that decrease '''Yes, yes, yes, temperature increase is unknown to physics!'''
 +
</blockquote>
  
''GPS atomic clocks in orbit would run at rates quite different from ground clocks if allowed to do so, and this would complicate usage of the system. So the counter of hyperfine cesium transitions (or the corresponding phenomenon in the case of rubidium atomic clocks) is reset on the ground before launch so that, once in orbit, the clocks will tick off whole seconds at the same average rate as ground clocks. GPS clocks are therefore seen to run slow compared to ground clocks before launch, but run at the same rate as ground clocks after launch when at the correct orbital altitude.''
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:::::(Again I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just wondering if there was a glitch or something b/c, as I said, these were all addressed above.) [[User:AndyFrankinson|AndyFrankinson]] 19:48, 13 January 2012 (EST)
  
Seems to me that relativistic effects have to be taken into account.  
+
The footnote for #8 says that the calculations are "complicated or contrived", and that the fundamental formula was "conformed" to match the observed perihelion precession.  No one doubts that the derivation is complicated.  But "conformed" seems to say that something was "tweaked" to match the precession.  The formula is complicated to solve but simple to write: <math>G_{\mu\nu} = 8 \pi K T_{\mu\nu}\,</math>.  There's nothing in it that can be "tweaked"--not 8, not pi, and not K (Newton's constant of gravitation.)[[User:JudyJ|JudyJ]] 17:08, 21 January 2012 (EST)
 +
:Yep, this is also confusing to me. Does Andy Schlafly know relativity? As you said, nothing can be tweaked in that equation (to "conform" to whatever events). The tensor that represents curvature has to have divergence 0, so that energy-momentum is locally conserved, and the 8*pi*G is determined from the fact that it has to reduce to Newtonian gravity in the weak-field limit. [[User:AndyFrankinson|AndyFrankinson]] 19:47, 23 January 2012 (EST)
  
[[User:FrankC|FrankC aka ComedyFan]] 13:13, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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== Recent reversion ==
  
:Frank, your intuition ("seems to me") is wrong here, and the entry explains it clearly.  GPS is a work of engineering and any timing discrepancies between the satellite and ground are obviously better handled directly by synchronization rather than asking a physicist what he thinks of relativity.  Engineers don't even bother taking general relativity courses, let alone try to build a satellite system using them.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:44, 6 January 2010 (EST)
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[[User:Aschlafly|Andy]], while your recent change did keep the link to the rebuttal page, don't you think it would only be fair to also keep the note that the page is controversial? Regardless who is actually right or wrong, I don't think it would be fair to anyone reading 'The Trustworthy Encyclopaedia' for them to pick up the impression that the ideas on this page are not very widely disputed. --[[User:QPR|QPR]] 16:05, 29 January 2012 (EST)
  
::The Time Service Department – a department of the U. S. Navy - states: “The Operational Control System (OCS) of the Global Positioning System (GPS) does not include the rigorous transformations between coordinate systems that Einstein’s general theory of relativity would seem to require – transformations to and from the individual space vehicles (SVs), the Monitor Stations (MSs), and the users on the surface of the rotating earth, and the geocentric Earth Centered Inertial System (ECI) in which the SV orbits are calculated. There is a very good reason for the omission: the effects of relativity, where they are different from the effects predicted by classical mechanics and electromagnetic theory, are too small to matter – less than one centimeter, for users on or near the earth.”
+
: The whole article is a list of relativity controversies. It says at the top that it is contrary to what liberals promote. Isn't that clear? [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 21:04, 29 January 2012 (EST)
 +
:: The point is, I think, that the very idea that there is a liberal/conservative division on this is itself controversial. Personally, I have not seen the issue raised anywhere except on Conservapedia, and even then only by a very small subset of contributors.
 +
:: On a broader point, if opposing liberal points of view is, by definition, controversial, and given that such opposition is the ''raison d'être'' of Conservapedia, wouldn't a better tagline be "The Controversial Encyclopaedia"?--[[User:QPR|QPR]] 08:09, 30 January 2012 (EST)
  
::Sorry, Frank. {{unsigned|PhyllisS}}
+
: It's a common tactic for the media to label someone they don't like as "controversial". But does anyone ever hear a liberal theory or politician called "controversial"?  Was [[Ted Kennedy]] ever called "controversial" by the media?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:43, 29 January 2012 (EST)
  
:::As far as I can see there is no reason to feel sorry for FrankC: Your article only covers the idea of using the [[Lorentz transformation instead]] of the [[Galileo transformation]] when calculating the position of an object: one could say that it is about the relativistic effects caused by the movement of the GPS receiver, not of the GPS satellites. That's why it's talking about ''fast moving air-planes and satellites''.
+
::Does this make [[string theory]] conservative, as it is often labeled ''controversial''? [[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 02:12, 30 January 2012 (EST)
:::FrankC (and others) have shown that there are relativistic effects on the satellites which are taken account of:
+
::::[http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/gpssps1.pdf Global Positioning System Standard Positioning Service Signal Specification], 2nd edition, June 1995:
+
  
::::p. 13: ''To compensate for relativistic effects, the output frequency of the satellite's frequency standard -- as it would appear to an observer located at the satellite -- is 10.23 MHz offset by a Df/f = -4.4647 x 10-18 or a Df  = -4.567 x 10-3 Hz.''
+
:::No, I didn't suggest that ''everything'' the media disparages as "controversial" is conservative.  String theory is a challenge to liberal orthodoxy from the Left.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 02:18, 30 January 2012 (EST)
 +
::::Just to nail this down [[User:Aschlafly|Andy]], do you or do you not think that this page is controversial?--[[User:QPR|QPR]] 08:09, 30 January 2012 (EST)
 +
::::Also, your question about Ted Kennedy looks rhetorical with the implied answer of 'no', and yet the answer is very clearly 'yes'. Googling "Ted Kennedy" and "controversial" gives 6.4 million hits. Obviously that doesn't mean the term is being applied to him in all cases, but in many of them (e.g. http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/us/2009/08/26/ted-kennedy-controversy#slide=1) it clearly is. Can you clarify the point you were making about him?--[[User:QPR|QPR]] 08:27, 30 January 2012 (EST)
  
::::p. 39: ''The coefficients transmitted in subframe 1 describe the offset apparent to the control segment two-frequency receivers for the interval of time in which the parameters are transmitted.  This estimated correction accounts for the deterministic satellite clock error characteristics of bias, drift and aging, as well as for the satellite implementation characteristics of group delay bias and mean differential group delay.  Since these coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects, the user's equipment must determine the requisite relativistic correction.  Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function.''
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::: The term "controversial" is not a good term for [[string theory]]. The major aspects are not disputed. A subject is not conservative just because some journalist mislabels it. [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 12:14, 31 January 2012 (EST)
::: (From [[Talk:Global Positioning System]])
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::: [[User:RonLar|RonLar]] 12:44, 3 August 2010 (EDT)
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== Several Clarification/Corrections ==
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::::::That's the problem with science journalism these days.  It overstates the implications of a lot of findings, oversimplifies key concepts, and often fails to accurately convey consensus opinions in a particular field. --[[User:JHunter|JHunter]] 17:35, 31 January 2012 (EST)
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:::::::Just wanted to add to this: I have never seen GR disputed anywhere but here. (Save for quantum gravity, of course). [[User:AndyFrankinson|AndyFrankinson]] 19:28, 2 February 2012 (EST)
  
I am new to Conservapedia, so I don't fully understand exactly how this site is structured; in particular who has the ability to edit protected pages.  This page is apparently protected, but in need of dire work even on the formatting/punctuation/style side of things. I hope someone with the required access to protected pages can incorporate some of these changes. In any event, here are some things that need to be clarified or corrected:
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== Neutrinos do not travel faster than light ==
 +
The same lab that originally broke the story has confirmed a flaw in their experiment. Dr. Sandro Centro stated, ''"In fact I was a little sceptical since the beginning, now we are 100% sure that the speed of light is the speed of neutrinos.[...]I think they were a little bit in a hurry to publish something that was astonishing, and at the end of the day it was a wrong measurement."[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17364682]
  
1.  It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space".  Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology?  If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completeness. If not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.
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: I hope he did not mean to say that, because neutrinos going at the speed of light would still contradict relativity (or other experiments). Neutrinos have mass, and must go slower than the speed of light. The article has a better statement: "they find that the neutrinos do travel at the same speed as light, within a small error range." [[User:RSchlafly|RSchlafly]] 05:02, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
  
2. #7 is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory. In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.
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I took the part out - again: have a look at the [http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2011/PR19.11E.html updated press-release] by CERN regarding the experiment:
 +
[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:48, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
  
3. #8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.
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:The updates and corrections for the benefit of Relativists are less than persuasive. Is anyone claiming quote above ("now we are 100% sure that the speed of light is the speed of neutrinos") is inaccurate?  Note, by the way, that the CERN experiment is not the only one that suggested neutrinos can travel at least as fast as the speed of light.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:57, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
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::Andy, perhaps you could write to either the ICARUS Collaboration or CERN seeking clarification of their results. After reading the actual paper[http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1203/1203.3433.pdf](not the press release), it seems that the team is quite confident that their latest results are in complete agreement with Relativity. "''Based on seven neutrino events, our result is in excellent agreement with Lorentz dependent velocities of neutrinos and of light. Neutrinos and GPS measurements are found to be sharply coincident in time within an uncertainty of a few nanoseconds, in disagreement with the superluminal result reported by the OPERA Collaboration.''" Yet you contend that the results from the very same experiment actually ''disproves'' Relativity. In this instance I simply think you are wrong. But who's to say that my interpretation of an article is any more accurate than yours? Obviously, we both can't be right. I think there must be a better way to settle this matter than combing through press releases. --[[User:JoshuaB|JoshuaB]] 13:33, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
  
4. #10 is not a counterexample because gravitons are not predicted by general relativityThey are expected to exist and be predicted by a successful ''quantum'' theory of gravity, but general relativity is not such a theory.
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:::The new, updated claims seem more like [[political correctness]] than real scienceDoes the paper compare the updated results to the independent prior findings, by another experiment, that also suggested that neutrino speeds conflict with the politicized desires of Relativists?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:55, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
  
5. #11 is not a counterexample to the theory at all.  It may be an argument for why the theory should not be studied, but that doesn't mean it is ''false'', and thus is not a counterexample.
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::::Political correctness? Come off it Schlafly. You do realize that there's far more fame and glory to be had for a physicist to prove GR wrong than there is to add to the growing list of supporting evidence? You do understand that, right? --[[User:JoshuaB|JoshuaB]] 01:57, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
  
6. #13 is presumably a reference to the horizon problem of cosmologyThis should be stated, and, as for the flatness problem, the theory of cosmological inflation should be mentioned.  (I realize inflation has not been empirically verified, but since the majority of cosmologists believe it is the correct explanation, it deserves a mention in an encyclopedia article.)
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:::::The opposite is obviously true. Those who even question the [[Theory of Relativity]] are risking their careersNo grad student can expect to receive a doctorate if he questions relativity; no associate professor can expect to receive tenure if he does likewise; and no tenured professor will ever win the [[Nobel Prize]] for questioning relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:31, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
  
7. #14 is again the problem of the incompatibility of general relativity and quantum field theory (namely that QFT is not background-invariant).  This is not a problem with general relativity, other than in the sense that it is only an approximation (like, say, Maxwellian electrodynamics are just an approximation to quantum electrodynamics).
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:::::: Yep, and no one will ever win a Nobel prize for questioning whether the Earth is round either. --[[User:BradleyS|BradleyS]] 18:29, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
  
8. #15, aside from the obvious grammatical error (''violated'' instead of the correct ''violate''), is again not a counterexample to general relativityGeneral relativity predicts wormholes ''only'' on the assumption that so-called "exotic matter" exists.  This is matter that has net negative mass/energy, and so is predicted not to exist for precisely the reasons listed here (time travel and the like).  But this is not a counterexample to general relativity itself, merely the observation that a mathematically possible solution does not have a physical manifestation.
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::::::: There aren't 39 counterexamples to the spherical shape of the EarthBut if a doctoral candidate, tenure-track professor, or [[Nobel Prize]] wannabe repeats one of the 39 [[Counterexamples to Relativity]], then he's risking retaliation against his career by liberals.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:52, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
  
9. #16 is again a quantum gravity issue.  It is wrong to call black holes "highly ordered (and thus low entropy)", though. The fact is that science does not yet know how to count black hole microstates, so we don't know whether they are highly ordered or extremely disordered.  But the best explanation seems to be that general relativity and the Second Law together suggest that black holes should have extremely ''high'' entropy, not low entropy. But again, this is not a counterexample to general relativity per se, since it makes no predictions about what black hole entropy should be.
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:::::::: There aren't 39 counterexamples to relativity and [[Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity|this page]] documents in detail what's wrong with each alleged "counterexample". The acceptance of relativity has to do with the theory passing extensive experimental scrutiny and nothing to do with "liberals". --[[User:BradleyS|BradleyS]] 19:29, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
  
10. #18 appears to be a restatement of #11, and is thus both redundant, and not a counterexample for the reasons listed discussion #11.
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Aschlafly said: "''No grad student can expect to receive a doctorate if he questions relativity[...]''" Yes. If a doctoral candidate whipped out almost any of your "counterexamples", in anything short of a joking fashion, they most likely would be signaling the end of their academic carrier. Why? It's simple. Advanced degrees are awarded to students who have shown a mastery of their particular field of study. Presenting this list of counterexamples in a doctoral thesis would only go towards illustrating that the student does not have a thorough understanding of SR or GR and thus should not offered a degree. No political correctness. No liberal conspiracy.
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<br />Aschlafly went on to say: "''...no tenured professor will ever win the [[Nobel Prize]] for questioning relativity.''" You are 100% correct on this one. Why? Because anybody can sit around questioning anything. It doesn't take any particular knowledge, skill, education, or keen intellect to lob endless unanswerable questions. Otherwise Glenn Beck would have won the Nobel (and every other prize) by now. No, the proverbial (and many times literal) money is in ''answering'' questions. --[[User:JoshuaB|JoshuaB]] 14:09, 21 March 2012 (EDT)
  
I apologize for the length of this list of edits, but something really must be done to improve the quality of this article.  I hope that someone with the appropriate access sees fit to make the necessary changes soon.
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''Italic text''== GPS and Relativity ==
[[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:12, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
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:REPLY BELOW:
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I'm in the process of getting a debate under way on 'GPS and Relativity' over at [[Talk:Theory of relativity]]. A this stage I would rather just have some references, especially any which show that Relativity is not used in the GPS system. Once we have some good references to look at, possibly in a week or two, we can then consider the evidence. [[User:RolandPlankton|RolandPlankton]] 08:59, 7 April 2012 (EDT)
  
::1.  It is unclear what #6 is referring to by "overall space"Is this a reference to the flatness problem in cosmology?  If so, that should be made explicit, and the most commonly accepted solution (inflation) should be mentioned for completenessIf not, the curvature of space locally is clearly demonstrated by the observed phenomenon of gravitational lensing.
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Relativity is, in fact, used in the GPS systemThe correction equations that must be used on the receiving side equipment are given in the official GPS interface specification, IS-GPS-200G [http://www.gps.gov/technical/icwg/IS-GPS-200G.pdf], p.92section 20.3.3.3.3.1: User Algorithm for SV Clock Correction.  
  
::: I'll clarify the obvious. It's still a counterexample. Science is not done by consensus, and inflation does not explain the overall flatness of space if relativity were true.
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<blockquote>
 +
The polynomial defined in the
 +
following allows the user to determine the effective SV PRN code phase offset referenced to the
 +
phase center of the antennas with respect to GPS system time (t) at the time of data
 +
transmission. The coefficients transmitted in subframe 1 describe the offset apparent to the twofrequency
 +
user for the interval of time in which the parameters are transmitted. This estimated
 +
correction accounts for the deterministic SV clock error characteristics of bias, drift and aging, as
 +
well as for the SV implementation characteristics of group delay bias and mean differential
 +
group delay. '''Since these coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects, the user's equipment must determine the requisite relativistic correction. Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function'''...
 +
</blockquote>
  
::::You needn't be so condescending.  I wasn't saying that it isn't a problem with general relativity, I was just saying that since this is an encyclopedia, relevant information should be included.  Since a proposed solution exists, it should be mentioned, and perhaps debunked if it is flawed.  So you could mention inflation, and then say why it fails to solve the flatness problem. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
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== Biblical Examples ==
  
:::::The theory of inflation does nothing "to solve the flatness problem" with respect its role as a counterexample to relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
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You can't really use the Bible to prove that the Bible is correct. While I'm not disputing the Bible, that doesn't change the fact that it's a tautological argument. I could easily "prove" relativity by saying "Einstein said such-and-such" and conclude therefore that such-and-such is true. But in reality, that wouldn't prove anything because I'd essentially be saying "Einstein said this, therefore what Einstein said is correct". It's no different for the Bible. Even if we were to argue that the Bible represents absolute truth, keep in mind that our source for that is the Bible itself, so regardless of what you believe, it's still a tautological argument. I'm not going to remove the Biblical examples without discussion, but I don't think they belong here. [[User:Gregkochuconn|Gregkochuconn]] 09:31, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
  
::::::Could you clarify this point?  Perhaps you could state exactly what you believe the flatness problem is and how it is a counterexample to GR, just to be sure we aren't talking past each other, as I fear we may have been so far. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:55, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
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== The roundness of the sun ==
  
::2.  7: is just a feature of the incompatibility between general relativity and quantum field theory.  In this sense, general relativity is of course wrong (just as Newtonian mechanics is, for example), because it doesn't apply accurately below distance scales where quantum effects emerge.
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I'm not completely familiar with the general and special theories of relativity, but what do they have to say about the roundness of the sun? [[User:DennyR|DennyR]] 12:41, 18 August 2012 (EDT)
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:There is a relationship, though it's somewhat roundabout. See item #4 in the rebuttal page. [[User:JudyJ|JudyJ]] 17:54, 18 August 2012 (EDT)
  
:::So at what distances do you declare general relativity to be false?  Is there a discontinuity at that distance?  Such an approach is absurd.
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== Gravitational waves found ==
  
::::I mean, technically it is false at ''all'' length scales, just like any classical (non-quantum) theory (Newtonian mechanics, Maxwellian electromagnetism, classical statistical mechanics, etc.). But there exists a range of length scales at which it is extremely accurate, and those are the only ones to which it makes claims having any epistemological value. There is no discontinuity, it just gets progressively worse as quantum effects become more and more apparent, which occurs at smaller and smaller length scales.  Quantum effects definitely need to be taken into account around the level of a nanometer or so in most systems of interest, so I would say this is about the regime where GR needs to stop being used.  But of course, it depends on the system in question. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
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[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19408363 BBC article]
  
:::::Not "technically it is false," but "it is false."  So teach it that way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
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[https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/news/ligo20160211 LIGO] [[User:Mark CS|Mark CS]] ([[User talk:Mark CS|talk]]) 22:35, 20 January 2017 (EST)
  
::::::See KrisJ's discussion below. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
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== Lede quote ==
  
::3. 8 is not a problem because quantum nonlocality doesn't allow for information transfer. Hence special relativity is not violated.
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I would argue if anything needs to be changed it's the detail in point 4. The lede quote is recent and relevant, and more sources for it are available than just LiveScience. In looking into it more just now, I've found it's progressed. Apparently the evidence against relativity was so concerning to the scientific community they began immediately trying to explain it away and forced the person in charge to resign.[http://news.discovery.com/space/opera-leaders-resign-after-no-confidence-vote-120404.html][http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/02/breaking-news-error-undoes-faster.html] Evidence that the original results are wrong was just finished.[http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/06/once-again-physicists-debunk.html] This displays the level of bias in the scientific community though, in trying to do all they can to protect the doctrine of relativity, and make it appear more substantiated and certain than it is. Maybe the quote should be removed, but it should be mentioned in point 4 regardless. That such major evidence was found in recent months against relativity and the scientific community sought so hard to cover it up, is news indeed. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 05:47, 5 September 2012 (EDT)
  
:::Your statement is a non sequitur, and may not be true. Special relativity does deny non-locality.
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:No one mentioned in those articles believes that neutrinos travel faster than light. I don't see how the OPERA leaders' resignations provide any evidence. Sounds more like their team was ticked off at them for making them all look like fools. [[User:Spielman|Spielman]] 13:12, 5 September 2012 (EDT)
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::The fact that it occurred like that shows relativity today is still under investigation, and not necessarily a proven fact - right? The scientific community is still trying to persuade everyone there is evidence for it. The effort to prove relativity correct is ongoing, rather than established like it was portrayed. --[[User:JZambrano|Joshua Zambrano]] 21:23, 5 September 2012 (EDT)
  
::::It's not a non sequitur; the problem as I thought it was stated on the page is that special relativity does not allow information transfer faster than the speed of lightSince quantum entanglement cannot actually transfer information, this does not violate that provision of special relativity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
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==Removing material==
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Unless you are the site owner, please do not remove, dilute, or water down, or adulterate the items here.  This page is extremely famous, and represents the views of the site ownerIt has been quoted and cited in print and internet articles all over the world.  It has over 1.8 million page views, more than 10 times as many as either the [[Counterexamples to an Old Earth]] and the [[Counterexamples to Evolution]] articles. If you think something is wrong, the [[Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity]] article is the place to bring it up.
  
:::::Special relativity does not define "information" nor was it developed in that context.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:02, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
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:I suppose "2+2=4" represents my views also, but the truth does not care whether I or anyone else agrees.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:59, 6 September 2012 (EDT)
  
::::::It is true that SR does not define information, but it does define causality (only events within each other's lightcones can be causally connected)Physical transfer of information (as defined by Shannon, and encoded in physical systems in Minkowski spacetime) between points in spacetime can only occur if those points are causally connected(This SR fact is what the horizon problem, which is cited as another GR counterexample, relies on.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
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::Touché!  Your point is well takenThough I doubt that taking such a daring and controversial stand would get 1.8 million page views:-) [[User:JudyJ|JudyJ]] 22:36, 17 September 2012 (EDT)
  
:::Will respond to your other points later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:11, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
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== 27. RE:PSR B1913+16 ==
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<blockquote>
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Data from the PSR B1913+16 increasingly diverge from predictions of the General Theory of Relativity such that, despite a Nobel Prize in Physics being awarded for early work on this pulsar, no data at all have been released about it for over five years.
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</blockquote>
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I would like to suggest that this be removed as both points (1. lack of data and 2. divergence from relativistic predictions) were disproved by the publishing of [http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/722/2/1030/ this paper] in The Astrophysical Journal in 2010. [[User:Fnarrow|Fnarrow]] 00:35, 8 April 2013 (EDT)
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==Force acting on a mass==
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The example, "The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass - does this act on the rest mass or the relativistic mass?" needs to be rephrased to be more clear.  Are we talking about measuring the force applied to the object or mesuring the change in trajectory of the object?  The force acts on the object, but the sentence is currently phrased as if there are two possible different answers.  The force will cause the trajectory of the object to change, which can be measured in specified frames of reference.
  
::::I appreciate your attention to my concerns, and I hope I have adequately outlined themAlso, I hope I would not be asking too much to request formatting consistency (like adding periods at the ends of nos. 7, 8, and 9). It would make it look more professional, like other articles I've seen on Conservapedia. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 21:19, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
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A good example would be a particle accelerator, or synchrotronA charge particle is traveling at speeds that approach the speed of light.  A magnetic field is applied to the particle to keep it traveling in a circular path.  As the speed of the particle increases, the force applied to the particle must increase to keep it in the track of the particle accelerator.  The force is applied at a right angle to the velocity of the particle. The calculations to determine the force needed to hold the particle to a circular path are well-tested and verified. Thanks, [[User:Wschact|Wschact]] 22:42, 8 April 2013 (EDT)
  
:::::Yill, your grand total of contributions to this site has been 3 edits to this page, all easily refutable. Frankly, I don't think greater efforts at "formatting consistency" are justified.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 03:01, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
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==#47: Historical evidence suggests that the year used to have 360 days. However, Relativity cannot explain how the orbit or the rotation of Earth could have changed enough to give us the current 365.24-solar-day year.==
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To the best of my knowledge, this has no relevance toward proving nor disproving the General or Specific Theory of Relativity... However, very little of my physics training was in the field, so please correct me if I'm wrong. If there is no objection, I will be removing it after the mandated 24 hour waiting period. (unless the length of day suddenly changes again, I suppose it might be shorter/longer than 24 hours in that case) [[User:Fnarrow|Fnarrow]] 13:18, 21 April 2013 (EDT)
  
::::::Your not going to be able to attract many users if you disparage newcomers with respect to how few edits they've made. I would like to be a positive contributor to this site, but I have to start somewhereI would appreciate encouragement and constructive criticism, not condescension and personal attacks. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
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:According to liberals, General Relativity predicts all gravitational interactions. It follows that whenever a gravity-related prediction is incorrect, Relativity has been disproven, don't you agree? Somehow the length of the day or year has changed, even though Relativity says the orbit should be staticWould you also support removing the other gravity-based examples #2, #3, #4, #6, #7, #21, #41, #43, #44, #45? Of course not. [[User:Spielman|Spielman]] 14:20, 21 April 2013 (EDT)
  
::::::: Yill, good grammar requires "you're", not "your", in your statement above. All your edits have been 100% talk, in violation of our [[90/10 rule]], and honestly I see no insights in your talk. I suggest you try contributing substantively to [[Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)]]; it is on a much higher educational level and you'll benefit enormously from it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:15, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
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Honestly, yes I would... For reasons explained on [[Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity]] and through any number of scientific journals. [[User:Fnarrow|Fnarrow]] 15:00, 21 April 2013 (EDT)
  
:::::::: You're right, I had a typo there; I apologize for the error. And I am well aware of the 90/10 rule, but seeing as the page I'm working on is protected, I'm not actually able to make any edits.  If it were unblocked or I were given the ability to edit it, I would be more than happy to stop posting on this talk page and instead edit the article itself. And frankly I don't particularly see how it's relevant whether you personally happen to see any insights in my talk; my understanding is that Conservapedia is shaped and edited by its users, with appropriate oversight from administrators to ensure accuracy and prevent the chaos of Wikipedia.  If need be, I'll appeal to those administrators to get the article fixed, since none seem to have come forward to help. I would love it if you would be willing to work with me to improve this article, but as it stands you seem to have little interest in doing so, having made no further contributions to the substance of the discussion.  If you change your mind, I would be happy to work with you on this endeavor.
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::I agree with Fnarrow. I stumbled upon this page recently and thought it was a parody. I see that some of the stranger items have been removed. But #40 persists... what do tides have to do with relativity?  And #39 pre-supposes that an object is traveling at the speed of light? These are parodies, right? [[User:AlexanderS|AlexanderS]] 22:10, 23 April 2013 (EDT)
  
::::::::As for your suggested article for me to work on, I don't really understand what you mean by it being on a "much higher educational level."  However, as I have no expertise in Biblical Greek, I don't think I'd be able to make any meaningful contributions to the translation. I'll let the experts in that subject deal with that article. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:37, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
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At least they finally got rid of the "Earthquakes in Ireland" example... I never could figure that one out. lol. But #4 still persists even thought it is easily explained by anyone who understands that it's surface is a plasma and not a solid as the citation presupposes. Anyway, I wouldn't go around agreeing with me too vocally, that's not a popular stance to take these days. Thanks for the support anyway though, [[User:Fnarrow|Fnarrow]] 22:31, 23 April 2013 (EDT)
  
:::::::::Yill, I recommended the Bible because, as Isaac Newton pointed out, working on translating the Bible increases the quality of one's work in other areas, including science.  Sure, I could drop everything else I'm doing and spend all day correcting you about this entry, but if you just picked up a Bible and improved your own work, then I could learn from you instead.  I'll correct your misunderstandings below but doubt I will spend much more time responding to you if you're not willing to put in open-minded effort on your own.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:58, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
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== Protect this page ==
  
Yill, you raise excellent points, most of which have not been raised before. We should sharpen those points, here on this page, and then address them on the actual article page. This will take a fair amount of discussion.  I could start by bringing up the discussion of point 7, inaccuracy of relativity at the quantum mechanical scaleOne question that was raised was "Is there a discontinuity at that [microscopic boundary] distance? Such an approach is absurd.". No. The way quantum mechanics and classical theories interact at the (microscopic) scales where this happens is well known. It is, of course, generally known as the Bohr correspondence principle, described in any textbook on quantum mechanics, and known in more detail as Ehrenfest's theorem, described in more advanced textbooks. (Very briefly, the quantum mechanical realm eases into the classical realm according to the Ehrenfest theorem.) We should make some citations to those, and put in a careful explanation that, under QM, '''all''' classical theories are incorrect, and QM is the correct theory for everything, from atoms to planets. Classical theories are just extremely good approximations outside of the quantum-mechanical realm. And, of course, we do not know how that quantum-mechanical realm operated immediately after the big bang (that's what inflation theory is about), but that doesn't affect what we ''do'' know about general relativity in the macroscopic realm.
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This page should be protected, as parodists seem to be attracted to editing it, and inserting their own information. [[User:Brenden|brenden]] 13:47, 23 April 2013 (EDT)
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::I second the protection motion put forward by [[User:Brenden|Brenden]]. As much as I 1. hate protected pages on a wiki which depends on "the best of the public" an 2. desperately want to personally replace this page with refutations of every example [[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] has made it clear that this page is one of the most popular on the wiki and that he stands by it. Therefore I think the following should happen:
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::#Revert to last known "approved" version, looks like that would be "20:44, 10 January 2013" in my opinion.
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::#Protected
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::#Move and expand the notice which currently appears at the bottom re: "future edits" and the [[Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity.]] to the top of the page.
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::#Allow only [[User:Aschlafly]] to change the article in the future when/if someone provides sufficient evidence on this talk page to convince him that their proposal warrants such display.  
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::I will take care of numbers 1 and 3 after the mandatory 24 hour waiting period, I leave 2 and 4 up to someone with those powers. Thanks, [[User:Fnarrow|Fnarrow]] 09:34, 24 April 2013 (EDT)
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I concur with Brenden and Fnarrow.  This is a highly technical subject, and while it reflects the best of the public, the constant back and forth consumes too much energy from the best of the public that could be devoted to other articles. The 20:44 10 Jan version seem appropriate to me. Thanks, [[User:Wschact|Wschact]] 11:39, 24 April 2013 (EDT)
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:Are you sure that 10 January is the right target? That version includes the derided "earthquakes in Ireland" example, as well as a few other recently-purged items. [[User:AlexanderS|AlexanderS]] 13:48, 24 April 2013 (EDT)
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::Watch out for the edits by the parodist Spielman, when selecting the revision. I haven't read the others yet, so I have no idea if they are also parody. [[User:Brenden|brenden]] 14:05, 24 April 2013 (EDT)
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:::Are those the ones Spielman listed in the above section (#2, #3, #4, #6, #7, #21, #41, #43, #44, #45)? Are those all parody edits?  I tried contacting him (?) for clarification, but seems to be blocked. [[User:AlexanderS|AlexanderS]] 14:30, 24 April 2013 (EDT)
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::::He's a parodist, and his edits have never been in good faith. [[User:Brenden|brenden]] 14:46, 24 April 2013 (EDT)
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I'm open to any/all suggestions. 10 Jan may not be the "best possible date" but I chose it based upon the fact that it seems to align the most closely with both [[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly's]] most recent edit and the refutations offered on [[Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity]]. While I agree that some of the entries on that date seem to be either 1. parodies or 2. gross misunderstandings of what the [[Theory of Relativity]] actually is, I figured choosing the date which most closely matched those two criteria would require the least all around editing on both pages. As this is obviously a contentious topic, I just want to let everyone know that I won't be changing it myself, I'll leave that to someone higher on the food chain once a satisfactory agreement has been reached here. Thanks to everyone for participating in this discussion. [[User:Fnarrow|Fnarrow]] 14:55, 24 April 2013 (EDT)
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:::I also will wait, but in the meantime I have restored the two items deleted by AlexanderS.  I would hope that Andy or someone who has spent more time than I have on the topic, will look at this page.  A group of people have invested a lot of work on generating this list.  If items are sourced, they should not be removed.  If an item is a parody, then it should be removed because it will detract from CP's credibility.  I have an open mind about this, but I also think that claims made on this page should be backed up by more detailed articles in CP.  For example, the rotation of the Earth around the Sun should be covered in depth in the [[Earth]] article.  If people disagree as to the relativistic effects on measuring the "year", we should give both sides of the controversy and let the reader decide.  CP has at least four articles on relativity.  We then summarize the "Counterexamples to Relativity" and also have a rebuttal essay. Anyone willing to read through all of that (even if the reader is a homeschooled high school student) will understand what to believe. I say lock at January 10, and then if someone wants to add or subtract from that, they can plead their case to Andy or some other Admin. [[User:Wschact|Wschact]] 22:26, 25 April 2013 (EDT)
  
The item about point 10 is excellent. Gravitons arose ''after GR'', from attempts to unify the theories. They have nothing to do with the macroscopic aspects of GR, which is what GR is actually all about.
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== Set back to version of 1 December -- explanation ==
  
[[User:KrisJ|KrisJ]] 10:04, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
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I have set the page back to the version of 18:45, 1 December 2012.  ''This version was made by the site owner.''  To those who say that Spielman was a "parodist", I can say that his general edits on technical matters, including inductor, capacitor, semiconductor, laser, neutron, and the other relativity pages, have been sensible and responsible.  I disagree with most of his edits to the counterexamples page, but I disagree with nearly everything on that page.  To those who dislike the "warp-speed solenoid" example, I wish to point out that it was put in by the site owner at 22:57, 20 August 2011.
  
: Teach that relativity is incorrect, if you concede the pointThere are relativists who claim their theory is the most precisely verified theory of all.
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While I disagree with much of the content of the page, it should not be diluted by well-meaning editorsHere is why:
  
::Those relativists claim that with respect to the macroscopic realm, as KrisJ referred to aboveWe are discussing how it breaks down at the microscopic level, when QM starts to play a role. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
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*This was largely written by the site owner, and clearly represents his viewsThis is corroborated by his writings on other relativity pages elsewhere.  While he did not personally put in Spielman's items, he has steadfastly defended many similar items on the list (Hulse-Taylor, Mercury precession, supraluminal neutrinos, gravitons, gravity waves, dark matter, black holes, the aether, action-at-a--distance) in talk page discussions here and on other relevant pages.
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*In addition to writing many (if not most) of the points on this page, Andy has had ample opportunity to remove material that he considers detrimental to Conservapedia's position on relativity. Most of Spielman's "parody" edits were made prior to Andy's last edit of 1 December 2012.
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*The "Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity" page adequately rebuts all of the points on the page.  Andy accepts its existence&mdash;he has placed counter-rebuttals on it.
 +
*When users (AugustO, Wschact, et al.) have diluted other relativity pages, particularly the E=mc^2 page, Andy has been quick to revert.
  
: Gravitons are based on GR, and they are non-existentEnough said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:37, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
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Users (and that includes myself) who disagree with this page and the other relativity pages are simply going to have to accept that they will not be satisfiedThey will just have to be satisfied with the "rebuttal" page, or will have to go elsewhere. We need to stop the bickering.
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:I see that Andy has brought us back to a set of 47 counterexamples.  Could we please protect the page now? Thanks, [[User:Wschact|Wschact]] 16:39, 27 April 2013 (EDT)
  
::No, for gravitons to be a counterexample to GR, they must be predicted by it.  But they are not, just as photons are not predicted by Maxwellian electrodynamicsThey are the "quantum" of the gravitational field, as photons are for the electromagnetic field, and are quantum ''by definition''GR is ''not'' a quantum theory; it manifestly does not predict them. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
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::Why not welcome improvements?  There have been many edits by others to this page that have strengthened it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:42, 27 April 2013 (EDT)
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:::In my view it is a cost/benefit calculationI would rather have people spend their time developing substantive articles, including the articles about relativityThe "Counterexamples to Relativity" and "Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity" pages are more of an "op-ed" feature instead of being an integral part of the encyclopedia.  I don't have the time to delve into each tendered counter-example and rebuttal.  So, I would advise locking the Counterexamples down, subject to anyone making a request to add an additional bona fide counter-exampleThis subject is too easy to parody.  For example, someone reading the "Earthquakes in Ireland" bullet would be tempted to add bullets for "Earthquakes in X" (where X is any country that has had an earthquake.)  We need stated criteria for inclusion of new bullets and then we should enforce the criteria. So, protecting the article would be the next logical step. [[User:Wschact|Wschact]] 17:22, 27 April 2013 (EDT)
  
:KrisJ, I appreciate your assistance with this project. I absolutely agree with your suggestions about 7 and 10, and hopefully we can find an editor with the ability to edit protected pages to help us implement them.  If you know of any that could help us, you should ask if they would be willing. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 16:49, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
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::::Improvements? In reward for some of those "improvements" [[User:Spielman|Spielman]] received a five-year block from [[User:Brenden|Brenden]]. Rightly so, in my opinion, but it doesn't seem like very consistent policy. (Sorry if this is off-topic, but it just struck me as odd.) [[User:AlexanderS|AlexanderS]] 19:29, 27 April 2013 (EDT)
  
I guess I was wrong about not being able to edit this article.  I'm going to delete #10, as per above, and make some formatting changes. I may also make some other clarifying edits. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:45, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
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==Inertia==
 +
Number 29 says, "Relativity requires different values for the inertia of a moving object: in its direction of motion, and perpendicular to that direction. This contradicts the logical principle that the laws of physics are the same in all directions." Does this person mean "inertial mass"? Thanks, [[User:Wschact|Wschact]] 23:41, 25 April 2013 (EDT)
  
I also deleted the references to relativity being useful, since those have nothing to do with its epistemological validity. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:52, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
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:Good clarification.  Edit mad as suggested.  Thanks.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:13, 16 December 2014 (EST)
  
== Curvature of Space ==
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== Parodist ==
  
Re [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&curid=97238&diff=766130&oldid=742826 this] edit: I don't disagree, but the example is a bad one. Based on local observations, one would assume that the Earth itself is flat, but it clearly isn't. My own point of view is that since the Universe can never be proved to be one thing or another, it is part of God's own ineffable being - it is almost folly to inquire further. [[User:RobertE|RobertE]] 18:24, 30 March 2010 (EDT)
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The counterexamples number [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&action=historysubmit&diff=1003848&oldid=1002788 47, 48], [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Counterexamples_to_Relativity&action=historysubmit&diff=1019735&oldid=1004457 49 and 50] were added by a parodist. Should they be removed?--[[User:JoeyJ|JoeyJ]] 11:57, 16 December 2014 (EST)
  
: No, one would not assume the Earth is flat based on local observations, as a ship can be observed to "rise" over the horizonI don't agree with the "nature is God" view either.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 11:34, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
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:Yes, those additions should be removedThanks!--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:10, 16 December 2014 (EST)
::Funny coincidence(?) that a defender of relativity invokes pantheism, since it was Einstein's (and Spinoza's) "god." [[User:DouglasA|DouglasA]] 13:50, 31 March 2010 (EDT)
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:I actually think the edit has merit, as long as the word "initial" is inserted before curvature, since the problem is that any initial curvature should be vastly amplified over time as the universe undergoes its usual expansion. And it is in fact the global curvature that is the issue here; ''any'' manifold we use to model the universe is by definition locally flat (since this is a fundamental property of manifolds).  The ship and horizon observation is not a local observation, since it is fundamentally predicated on the global curvature of the Earth. "Local" means that it can be done at arbitrarily small distance scales, which that observation cannot. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 17:06, 4 April 2010 (EDT)
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::Well, that's kind of embarrassing that such items would remain on the list for two years. And even now their removal is based not on logic, but on the identity of the contributor. Isn't it conceivable that the speed-of-light solenoid (now #46) is also parody? [[User:AlexanderS|AlexanderS]] 15:05, 4 January 2015 (EST)
  
== Reversion explained ==
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::My apologies, the solenoid item was added by Mr. Schlafly himself. So, not parody. [[User:AlexanderS|AlexanderS]] 16:59, 4 January 2015 (EST)
  
Reversion was necessary for two reasons: first, to restore material that was improperly censored, and second, to revert an imprecise label put on one of the counterexamples.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:53, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
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:::Wikis are open to the public, and some people make incorrect edits, sometimes buried deep in an entry far beyond where most people would look.  The significance of such activity is zero, and eventually such little-noticed edits are reverted.  The only way to prevent such edits would be to close the wiki to the public, which would then miss out on many valuable insights from the [[best of the public]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 20:54, 4 January 2015 (EST)
  
:I don't want to get into an edit war here, so I won't undo your reversion for now.  But I fail to understand your reasoning, so perhaps you could clarify a bit instead of making the one sentence assertions that have made up your discourse so far.  There is no censorship here, merely deletion of objectively incorrect statements.  Perhaps you could actually bother to respond to my points above, rather than just reverting my edits without justification.  In the meantime, I will replace the periods I added at the end of several of the counterexamples for formatting consistency; hopefully you don't consider ''that'' to be "censorship" as well. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 20:48, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
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== Action-at-a-distance according to the Bible ==
  
::You deleted valid information.  Gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with quantum mechanics.  Without GR gravitons would not be expected; with GR people do expect to find them.  The wholesale deletion of reference to this is unwarranted, and simply conceals a real flaw in GR.
 
  
:::First of all, I want to thank you for actually explaining your claims.  Now we can actually have the real discussion KrisJ suggested above.  You are perfectly correct in stating the gravitons are predicted by an attempt to reconcile GR with QM; that is precisely the point I was trying to make.  But by your logic we could rightly conclude that the flaw is with QM rather than GR--without QM gravitons would not be expected either.  On what basis do you claim that the non-observance of gravitons is a counterexample to GR rather than a counterexample to QM?  (Also, I should note that just because gravitons have not yet been observed, that doesn't mean they won't be.  For example, the non-observation of the Z boson did not constitute a counterexample to the electroweak theory between 1979 and 1983.) [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
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{{cquote|The [[action-at-a-distance]] by [[Jesus]], described in [[John 1-7 (Translated)#Chapter 4|John 4:46-54]], [[Matthew 10-19 (Translated)#Chapter 15|Matthew 15:28]], and [[Matthew 20-28 (Translated)#Chapter 27|Matthew 27:51]].}}
  
::::Gravitons were historically proposed in trying to reconcile GR with QM.  Other theories of gravity may not require gravitons at allDoes string theory?  Gravitons are thereby attributable to GR, not to the more developed and better verified QM. ''Simply look at the name "gravitons" itself''.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
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That doesn't make any sense. Take e.g., John 4:46-54 - the question is: did the action take place instantaneously, or was it perhaps conveyed with the speed of light. But Cana and Capernaum are roughly 30km away from each other! Even today, we would have difficulties to make such measurements - as seen during the OPERA neutrino speed experiment of 2011.  
  
:::::Actually, any quantum theory of gravity, whether it reduces to GR at large scales or not, requires gravitons ''by definition''. Do you even understand what a graviton ''is''? ''The quantum of a gravitational field.'' Just as any quantum theory of electromagnetism ''must'' include the photon in its particle spectrum, any quantum theory of gravity ''must'' include the graviton in its particle spectrum.  And yes, string theory requires them; the entire reason string theory started being developed as a theory of everything is that gravitons (i.e. massless spin-2 bosons) naturally appear as part of its particle spectrum! [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
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How could the servants spot a difference of ca. 1/10.000 seconds? Answer: they couldn't
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*It's impossible to describe the breaking of a fever with such precision
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*Jesus said: "Go, your son lives" That takes considerably more time than 1/10.000s...
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*The fever left him at the seventh hour. Which one: Cana's or Capernaum's? Both differ by a couple of seconds, as all time-keeping was local!
  
:::::: Yill, do you know what [[action-at-a-distance]] is?  It doesn't require the fictional gravitons. Newtonian mechanics doesn't require such imaginary particles.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
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Does the Bible claim that the healing was instantaneous? No, only that it took place roughly at the time Jesus spoke to the father. Jesus just tells him "Your son lives": it isn't said whether this is an observation of something which already had happened, a healing at this point of time, or a prophecy of an event in the future - all three possibilities are given (and impressive).
  
:::::::Do you know what ''quantum'' means?  Please acknowledge that you do, and that you know Newtonian mechanics is not a quantum theory, and therefore that ''your response does not address my concern.'' [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
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You have to twist the scripture towards your preferred interpretation if you wish to crowbar "action at a distance" into these verses. --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:57, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
  
::The "flatness problem" refers primarily to curvature expected from inflation, not GR itselfIt is misleading to call the counterexample the "flatness problem," and then pretend it has a solution.  The counterexample described is not resolved.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:12, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
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:The Gospel passages are widely understood as describing [[action-at-a-distance]]Also, please discuss first before repeatedly deleting something.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:28, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
  
:::The flatness problem refers to the fact that, in an ''inflation-free'' universe, the FRW metric with matter and radiation equation-of-state parameters predicts that any initial nonzero curvature will increase vastly in magnitude, leaving a highly curved universe at present. Inflation is proposed as a ''solution'' to the flatness problem; it is not the cause of it.  The process of inflation drastically flattens any initial curvature in the universe so dramatically that even after the curvature increase undergone under normal evolution, the universe still appears nearly perfectly flat. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 22:55, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
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::Yes, Jesus acted over a distance - but instantaneously? That's your interpretation! If it is "widely understood" to happen instantaneously, you shouldn't have a problem to give some sources which corroborate this claim. I couldn't find any.  
:::Wait, I just realized that I think we may be talking past one another here. I interpreted the counterexample listed on the page to be the flatness problem, but based on your response I guess that it is not.  (Obviously the flatness problem is not a counterexample to GR itself, just to the use of the FRW metric for modeling the universe.)  This counterexample seems to be more fundamental, namely the claim that space is nowhere curved, as GR says it must be by matter and energy. Is that correct? [[User:Yill|Yill]] 23:25, 5 April 2010 (EDT)
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::Furthermore: because of the technical problems which I described above, we cannot rely on eyewitnesses. Did Jesus Himself state that he has performed an [[action-at-a-distance]], i.e., caused something in a distance without temporary delay? No, He didn't.
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:: --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:33, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
  
::::A ''type'' of inflation is proposed to try to explain the unexpected flatness. But there's no way around the basic problem: GR says that space is curved by matter, and an overall flatness is impossible under such a model. Yet an overall flatness is what is observed.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:23, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
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"''Please discuss first before repeatedly deleting something''": I'm happy to do so and I will present my arguments. Andy, I hope you will join the discussion!
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:I waited more than two days for the other site to engage in a meaningful discussion. It seems that we have reached an agreement. --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 06:26, 22 March 2015 (EDT)
  
:::::I still don't understand what you're saying.  The ''overall'' visible universe ''is'' flat, at scales large enough that it can accurately be modeled as homogeneous and isotropic.  (These scales are beyond the sizes of galactic clusters.)  But on much smaller scales, where these assumptions obviously break down, matter does indeed curve spacetime; the phenomenon of gravitational lensing is precisely such an example.  If you are at all confused by these different notions, I would recommend taking a look at a modern textbook on the subject; Barbara Ryden's ''Introduction to Cosmology'' is a good place to start. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 14:57, 6 April 2010 (EDT)
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===[[John 1-7 (Translated)#Chapter 4|John 4:46-54]]===
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Jesus didn't claim that the healing took place instantaneously. Andy, do you think the nobleman and his servants were able to spot whether to events took place at the same time in Cana and Capernaum? If not, this example should be removed. --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 14:22, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
  
::::::Dark matter supposedly permeates the universe, and there's no way it would be flat if GR were true.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 00:48, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
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:The better translation is "Then the father realized that this was the same moment when Jesus said to him, "your son lives," so both he and his entire house believed."  "Same moment" means simultaneously.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 16:47, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
  
:::::::Okay, now ''that'' is a total non sequitur.  Again, instead of making blanket assertions, perhaps you should learn why, given that they believe dark matter permeates the universe ''and'' that it is flat on large scales, cosmologists still think GR works.  Let me enlighten you.  If the universe were evenly filled with a uniformly dense substance, the curvature would be flat.  Yet there were would be matter in it! And that's it.  On large enough scales, that's how the universe appearsHence there is no contradiction. [[User:Yill|Yill]] 00:19, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
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::'''"Then ''the father'' realized"''': how could the father judge that it happened "at the same moment", and not with a delay of 1/10,000 s? Answer: He couldn't - even if his son got better five minutes before he met Jesus, and Jesus just relayed this fact, or if the healing needed five minutes, and Jesus spoke about an event in the near future! For the father (and the Roman time-keeping abilities) it was enough that it happened in the same hour!
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::Everybody of a certain age knows what she or he did when Kennedy was shot. But does he really know what he did in the very moment the bullet struck the president? No, at best, he knows what he did when the transmission of the shot arrived. --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 17:01, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
  
== Proposed page move ==
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===[[Matthew 10-19 (Translated)#Chapter 15|Matthew 15:28]]===
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καὶ ἰάθη ἡ θυγάτηρ αὐτῆς ἀπὸ τῆς ὥρας ἐκείνης. ''and her daughter was healed from the very hour'' We don't know ''where'' the daughter was. Though the mother could have left her in Cana, she could also be accompanying her! --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 14:22, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
  
Can someone rename the article so the R is lowercase in the title? Thanks, [[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:21, 29 July 2010 (EDT)
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===[[Matthew 20-28 (Translated)#Chapter 27|Matthew 27:51]]===
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Andy, you state: "The Greek "Καὶ ἰδού" in this context emphasizes the identical timing" - but we have a string of sentences joined by Καὶ: '''Καὶ''' ἰδοὺ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη ἀπ' ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω εἰς δύο, '''Καὶ''' ἡ γῆ ἐσείσθη, '''Καὶ''' αἱ πέτραι ἐσχίσθησαν, '''Καὶ''' τὰ μνημεῖα ἀνεῴχθησαν '''Καὶ''' πολλὰ σώματα τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἁγίων ἠγέρθησαν, '''Καὶ''' ἐξελθόντες ἐκ τῶν μνημείων μετὰ τὴν ἔγερσιν αὐτοῦ εἰσῆλθον εἰς τὴν ἁγίαν πόλιν '''Καὶ''' ἐνεφανίσθησαν πολλοῖς. Obviously, not all of these events happened at the same time! And for the last four years, you haven't presented any scholarly source which would support your translation of [[idou]]! --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 14:33, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
  
:Why?  The term refers to a specific theory, and the many counterexamples to it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:31, 29 July 2010 (EDT)
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== Widely Understood ==
  
::My simple rationale is "relativity" is not a proper noun. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity Wikipedia uses the lowecase] and so does [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relativity Wester's], so why not here? --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 22:36, 29 July 2010 (EDT)
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Andy, the [[GPS]] is widely understood to take relativistic effects into account - and here, I can present examples ;-) --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 12:49, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
  
:::It's not a traditional proper noun, you're right, but it does satisfy all the conditions underlying why proper nouns are capitalized.  It is a unique term-of-art, having a specific meaning other than the general meaning of the word.  As used in physics, "Relativity" is different from the generic "relativity".--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:01, 29 July 2010 (EDT)
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:The GPS adjustments are based on experimental observation, not contrived theoretical predictions by Relativity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:30, 7 June 2015 (EDT)
  
::::However, it is my belief, "relativity" in this case should not be treated differently. Look at the Wikipedia article, it uses "relativity" in that sense. Also, the [[theory of relativity|CP article on the subject]] uses the lowercase as well, so I still see no point in capitalizing it here. --[[User:GregoryZ|GregoryZ]] 23:07, 29 July 2010 (EDT)
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::Funny, how these experimental observations coincide with the theoretical predictions by relativity - one could see this as a confirmation of the theory.
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::But let's wait for [[Galileo]] - [http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Navigation/Improving_the_accuracy_of_satellite_navigation_systems they are thinking about a different approach]:
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:::&laquo;<i>Present navigation satellite systems, such as Galileo and GPS, employ Newtonian trigonometry to determine positions, using Earth stations as reference points. This approach would perform ideally if all the satellites and the receiver were at rest and far from Earth.</i>&raquo;
  
::::: The word "relativity" dates from the early 1800s.  That's not what is being discussed here.  If preceded with "theory of" then there is no need to capitalize; if stand-alone, however, it does add clarification to capitalize as is done for other specific concepts that differ from the generic names.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:52, 29 July 2010 (EDT)
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:::&laquo;<i>However, this is only correct as a first approximation – because of the level of precision needed by a GNSS, the distortions that Earth causes in nearby space and time (space-time curvature) and the effects of the relative motions between the satellites and the user (relativistic inertial effects) both have to be considered. These are accounted for by introducing relativistic corrections to the Newtonian theory. For a ground user, these corrections can be as large as 12 km after one day.</i>&raquo;
  
== Curl of the gravitational field ==
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:::&laquo;<i>A simple way to avoid having to deal with the defects of Newtonian theory is to change the paradigm. Instead of modelling the system in a Newtonian framework and adding relativistic corrections, the positioning system could be modelled directly in general relativity. </i>&raquo;
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::--[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 19:08, 7 June 2015 (EDT)
  
Sorry to get over-technical, but the fundamental law of "fictitious forces" (including gravity) is that the force field (divided by the mass of the test object) is
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:The "experimental observation" and "[contrived] theoretical predictions" happen to match.  This should surprise no one, since relativity is correct.  The GPS adjustments may be made by computers that are using observed ephemeris data from the satellites, but '''everyone involved knows''' that the '''basis''' for those adjustments (7 us/day up for SR; 45 us/day down for GR) is relativity.  No one operating the GPS control stations will tell you that "We fudge the satellite clocks by 38 microseconds per day, but we don't know why this is needed."  They knew that they would need the correction, based on relativity, before the satellites were launched; the correction mechanism was built in before launch.  Very fine "tweaking" of the clocks is made by the control stations, but that's because of uncertainty of the satellites' orbits.  The tweaking is not because relativity is wrong.  See [http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html this article] for an explanation of the 38 microsecond correction.  [[User:SamHB|SamHB]] 22:00, 7 June 2015 (EDT)
  
<math>G^i = - \Gamma^i_{00}</math>
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===Andy, you are missing the point of this section===
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The [[GPS]] is '''''widely understood''''' to take relativistic effects into account - just google ''"GPS" "theory of relativity"'' and you get numerous links to universities, etc., most of which in favor of the statement. Nonetheless, this isn't good enough  for you: predictably, you are ignoring all these voices, and just state that "''The GPS adjustments are based on experimental observation, not contrived theoretical predictions by Relativity''". I get it: ''"widely understood"'' isn't a yardstick for credibility.
  
Its curl is
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Or is it? A little earlier, your only answer to
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{|class="wikitable"
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|
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{{cquote|The [[action-at-a-distance]] by [[Jesus]], described in [[John 1-7 (Translated)#Chapter 4|John 4:46-54]], [[Matthew 10-19 (Translated)#Chapter 15|Matthew 15:28]], and [[Matthew 20-28 (Translated)#Chapter 27|Matthew 27:51]].}}
  
<math>(\nabla \times G)^i = \mathcal{E}^{ijk} g_{km} G^m_{;j}</math>
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That doesn't make any sense. Take e.g., John 4:46-54 - the question is: did the action take place instantaneously, or was it perhaps conveyed with the speed of light. But Cana and Capernaum are roughly  30km away from each other! Even today, we would have difficulties to make such measurements - as seen during the OPERA neutrino speed experiment of 2011.  
where the semicolon indicates the covariant gradient.
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When you work this out, it involves derivatives of the <math>\Gamma\,</math> quantities. In general relativity, the results are zero by symmetries of Riemann's tensor.
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How could the servants spot a difference of ca. 1/10.000 seconds? Answer: they couldn't
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*It's impossible to describe the breaking of a fever with such precision
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*Jesus said: "Go, your son lives" That takes considerably more time than 1/10.000s...
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*The fever left him at the seventh hour. Which one: Cana's or Capernaum's? Both differ by a couple of seconds, as all time-keeping was local!
  
[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 21:33, 30 July 2010 (EDT)
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Does the Bible claim that the healing was instantaneous? No, only that it took place roughly at the time Jesus spoke to the father. Jesus just tells him "Your son lives": it isn't said whether this is an observation of something which already had happened, a healing at this point of time, or a prophecy of an event in the future - all three possibilities are given (and impressive).
  
: Perhaps so, but the "twin paradox" in Relativity states that the age of each twin is dependent on his path of travelFor a conservative field, all physical parameters are path independent.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:07, 30 July 2010 (EDT)
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You have to twist the scripture towards your preferred interpretation if you wish to crowbar "action at a distance" into these verses. --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 10:57, 19 March 2015 (EDT)|}
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|}
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was
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{|class="wikitable"
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|The Gospel passages are widely understood as describing [[action-at-a-distance]]Also, please discuss first before repeatedly deleting something.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 12:28, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
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|}
  
:: Simeon, your mathematical work is rigorous and correct. However, the twin paradox example is interesting to study here. I am aware that the twin paradox is solved by the non-inertial turn-around of the ship when it is going back home. However, in this solution, it is still noted that there is an age difference between the twins. [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm Wikipedia affirms this] and so do [http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm other sites]. Such an age difference in twins shows that there is some sort of path dependence. I understand that traveling at near-c speeds in space is not the same thing as moving from point A to B in a gravitational field, but the concept does seem to be a bit similar. Could you maybe explain this for us a bit? Thanks. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 00:52, 31 July 2010 (EDT)
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That was your whole argument! Sweet (predictable) irony! --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 19:45, 8 June 2015 (EDT)
  
OK, I think I understand.  I assumed that the "conservative field" / "curl is zero" stuff referred to the gravitational force field.  If it refers to the passage of time, that's different.  It isn't true that "all physical parameters are path independent".  An extremely important one that isn't path independent is the arc length of the path or arc.  You can draw a short straight line from A to B, or a long loopy line that starts at A, wanders around, and eventually gets to B.  Why is this relevant to the twin paradox?  Because, in relativity, an observer's own elapsed time ("local time") is really just the arc length of his "world line" in Minkowski space.  Minkowski was an extremely smart guy, by the way.  The twin that stays home takes a direct route from point A (their birth) to point B (the moment they compare ages and see that one has gray hair and wrinkled skin.)  The other twin takes a very roundabout route, getting in a rocket and going to Alpha Centauri and back. Their path lengths are their local times, which are different. (Why is the length of the roundabout path actually shorter, so that that twin ages less?  Because, in Minkowski space, using the "timelike convention" that all the best people use :-), motion in space subtracts from the elapsed time.  That's just the way it works.)
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<small>BTW: if you google "action-at-a-distance" "Matthew 15:28", virtually all results are connected with Conservapedia! So, at best, this passage is widely understood only by you as describing action-at-a-distance... --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 19:45, 8 June 2015 (EDT)</small>
  
Now I assume that there is no dispute about the facts of relativistic time dilation.  In addition to being predicted exactly by the Lorentz transform, it has been observed in practice in cosmic ray muon decays, as well as countless observations in particle accelerators.  The "twin paradox" is just an extreme consequence of this.  It has of course never been observed in that form, just as we don't know whether Schrodinger's cat is alive.
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== Relativity Conflicts with Bible ==
  
The "twin paradox" is a consequence of special relativity, not general, and hence does not relate to gravity. I hate to be the umpteenth person to tell you that general relativity is too hard to explain, but it's kind of true. I barely understand the most rudimentary basics.  (When Eddington made his comment about only 3 people in the world who understand gen. rel., I wasn't the third!  :-)  But I can say that you don't need to worry about general relativity to understand the "twin paradox".  You can finesse the Minkowski-space curvature of the path during the turnaround at Alpha Centauri, and just say that the twin went there and came back.  So was something physically different, that the twins could observe?  You bet.  The "younger" twin will remember having experienced 6 months of horrendous acceleration in the ionic-drive rocket, followed by a year of horrendous turnaround, and another 6 months of horrendous deceleration at the end.  She will have soft, smooth skin, but at a great cost. :-)
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The Bible describes [[action at a distance]]. Relativity falsely denies it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:34, 7 June 2015 (EDT)
  
Sorry to be so long-winded.  In quick summary, the thing that's different about the paths is their length, and that is exactly the local elapsed time. [[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:07, 1 August 2010 (EDT)
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:Andy, on March 19, 2015 you wrote: "''please discuss first before repeatedly deleting something''". Therefore, I laid out my argument at [[#Action-at-a-distance_according_to_the_Bible]]. I waited for two days, but you didn't address my points. Thus, I thought that you had conceded this point, and I deleted it from the list.
  
: Simeon, time dilation occurs under the Theory of General Relativity also, so your analysis above is not persuasive in resolving this example of a non-conservative effect.  Moreover, your repeated claims about how supposedly only geniuses can understand this are getting tiresome. That approach is a recipe for mistaken reliance on unjustified authority.
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:Now, I'd say it is your turn to ''discuss first before repeatedly adding something''! Merely repeating your point of view isn't a discussion! So, please address my points above. For your convenience, a short summary:
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::*Jesus never said that he made something happen instantaneously over a distance
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::*The witnesses at that time couldn't know whether something happened instantaneously or with a delay.
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:--[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 14:39, 7 June 2015 (EDT)
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:BTW: take a look at [[Talk:Action at a distance#Biblical Example ]] --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 19:09, 7 June 2015 (EDT)
  
: If you don't feel this is understandable, then simply say so and stop there; please do not imply that people should just accept what someone of undisclosed political views claims.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:58, 1 August 2010 (EDT)
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I don't understand the connection between this and moral relativity. Could someone please explain?
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:My understanding of the link is that they both simply pertain to the general notion of [[relativity]], simply put, which can be applied in a way that allows the observer to see a steep slippery slope, if one accepts the notion that all things are relative. --[[User:Hacnocteestlucet|Hacnocteestlucet]] ([[User talk:Hacnocteestlucet|talk]]) 21:04, 5 December 2015 (EST)
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== Einstein’s Relativity and Relativism: Why Einstein’s theory of relativity is actually a powerful argument for absolute truth.  ==
  
I give up.
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Please read the article [http://evangelicalfocus.com/blogs/1297/Einsteins_Relativity_and_Relativism Einstein’s Relativity and Relativism: Why Einstein’s theory of relativity is actually a powerful argument for absolute truth.] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 13:55, 11 February 2016 (EST)
*The only scientists I mentioned were Minkowski and Eddington, and the latter just as a joke. I never said anything about their, or anyone else's, politics.
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*Time dilation does indeed occur under both general and special relativity.  The point I was trying to make is that general relativity is simply not needed to understand the twin paradox.  It only takes special relativity, which is much better understood.  I'm sorry to hear that, by not analyzing the twin paradox in terms of general relativity, my persuasiveness suffered.
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*I apologize if I "talked down" to you and Phyllis with my comments about GR being too complicated.  I assume that both of you have heard, many times, that GR is exceedingly complicated.  I was simply trying to soften the blow by pointing out that you ''don't need'' GR.  And cracking that joke about how Eddington could not have been referring to me.
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*In fact, I know a fair amount about GR. I ''could'' analyze the twin paradox in terms of the gravitation of Earth and Alpha Centauri.  But there is simply no need to.
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*This "non-conservative effect" business simply makes no sense.  If the integration of a vector field along different paths gets different final results, then that field is non-conservative.  You seem to be saying that the ''passage of time'' is some kind of vector field, and that the final results of "integrations" (the two different values of local time at the end of the experiment) are supposed to be the same, and that the difference shows that this "vector field" is not conservative, and that that is a counterexample to relativity.  The passage of time is not a vector field.  The different values of time, as seen by different observers, is not a ''counterexample'' to relativity, it is ''one of the principal effects'' of relativity.  It's really what the word "relativity" means when discussing the scientific Theory of Relativity.
+
*If you really think that the non-globality and non-absoluteness of time is a counterexample to relativity, then so be it.
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 23:13, 1 August 2010 (EDT)
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Please unlock this page. I wish to add a picture to the article. [[User:Timematter|Timematter]] ([[User talk:Timematter|talk]]) 21:34, 4 May 2016 (EDT)
  
: Simeon, if you "give up," then that is your own choice.  You have not disproved the counterexample.  Instead, you first described the twin paradox as being only about special relativity, and when I pointed out that it exists under general relativity too, you then agree yet do not fully address the substantive issue presented by the paradox.  For example, the amount of acceleration undertaken by the twin in his journey will affect his age independent of his time spent away.  His subsequent age is ''not'' path independent even in time-space coordinates.
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== The action-at-a-distance by Jesus, described in John 4:46-54, Matthew 15:28, and Matthew 27:51. ==
  
: It's easy to search for "general relativity" and "conservative field" on the internet and see how little has been written about this.  That is telling in itself. I'm happy to continue to discuss this here with you or anyone else.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 23:56, 1 August 2010 (EDT)
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Let us make a thought experiment: imagine a glass fiber cable between Cana and Capernaum (some 90km). In Cana, the master switches on a light, in Capernaum, this is observed via cable by his servant. The servant than rides to Cana to discuss with his master whether he saw the light in the same instance it was switched on - or 1/10,000 second later.
  
:: Could you clarify what the ages (and path dependence thereof) in the twin paradox have to do with conservative fields? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:04, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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What is the result when both are equipped with the best sun-dials available?
  
::: Age is scalar physical attribute.  It should not be path dependent in a [[conservative field]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:31, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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Hilarity!
  
:::: Yes, but which [[conservative field]] in particular are you talking about here (that implies age is not path dependent)?  --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 14:37, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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--[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 03:54, 10 April 2017 (EDT)
  
::::: Gravity.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 14:53, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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== Consider removing point #1 ==
  
:::::: Well, in Newtonian mechanics, the gravitational field is indeed conservative -- it's the negative gradient of the gravitational potential!  But what this means is that gravitational potential energy is path-independent: it doesn't say anything about path-independence any other quantities, and in particular it's not the reason for the path-independence of age.  --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:00, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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Consider removing #1, because the sources it cites (which are the National Geographic and the Scientific American) are not scientific peer-reviewed journals, and cannot be considered as actual scientific evidence. Neither of these actually cite an
 +
Also, specifically concerning the Scientific American, it does not actually state a specific computer model that has run on some computer. I had to do some digging around, but I found [https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13316 this article] which I think is what these
 +
articles are referring to. Anyway, even if this is so, this is not a valid counterexample to the Theory of Relativity because a computer model or simulation cannot necessarily falsify what is in the real world. For example, if this simulation is in ''any way'' not 100% accurate
 +
to real life, then it is not necessarily a truly accurate representation of reality. Furthermore, this could be due to the fact that according to the aforementioned article, the simulation was conducted at a limited resolution of cosmic data, and thus, does not simulate small particles
 +
such as atoms and small molecules.
  
::::::: You take a narrow view of the significance of a "conservative field."  Independent physical attributes should remain path-independent as well for the field to be conservative.  In Newtonian mechanics and most other physical force fields, they do.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 15:41, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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The article itself (or rather, what is under the "Abstract" section of the article) even states: "It yields a reasonable population of ellipticals and spirals, reproduces the observed distribution of galaxies in clusters and characteristics of hydrogen on large scales, and at the same time matches the ‘metal’ and hydrogen content of galaxies on small scales."
  
:::::::: By a conservative field, I mean a vector field on space for which there exists a scalar function V with the gradient of V given by that vector field.  This doesn't imply the path-independence of any physical quantities other than V itself.  If you this view as too narrow, can you tell me what you take to be the definition of a conservative field? --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 15:57, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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This means that Chaos theory (a branch of mathematics which concerns outcomes being highly sensitive to initial conditions) could explain that due to a lack of atomic simulation of this model, it necessarily means that an exact replica of our universe is not contained within that computer simulation due to it not simulating our universe exactly how it is in the real world. Therefore, this model's density of black holes per whatever unit of measure is not sufficient evidence as a counterexample of the Theory of Relativity by Einstein because that computer simulation is not more accurate than Einstein's calculations based on Relativity.
  
::::::::: Your definition is too narrow when discussing the theory of relativity, which describes the framework in which the force operates.  To be meaningful, the definition must be broader.  It must ensure the path independence of the scalar, as well as other scalars independent of that scalar.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:12, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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Not only that, but I fail to see where it is mentioned in the article the popularity of black holes or a citation of Einstein's calculations for it as well. So the argument does not even have substantiation either.
 
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:::::::::: Can you tell me what the correct definition is, then?  I have pretty good background in this stuff, no need to dumb it down, just be precise.  Certainly no field at all is going to conserve every scalar function, so I'd like to know which ones you want. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 18:20, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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::::::::::: Kyle, I have an [[Essay:Quantifying Openmindedness|open mind]] about this, and don't see a precise definition anywhere that would be meaningful with respect to the theory of relativity.  It's striking how relativists avoid this issue, and even stop discussing it when it is brought up.
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::::::::::: I can propose a definition that you may be able to improve.  How about: a conservative theory of motion is one whereby scalar values of a particle are independent of its path of motion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 18:36, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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That's an interesting proposal, and I too have an open mind about this.  Can you give an example of such a ''conservative theory of motion''?  One such would greatly help in devising the correct definition. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 19:29, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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:Newtonian mechanics would be an obvious example.  By the way, how do you explain the general lack of discussion and papers about whether the theory of relativity is conservative, including the abrupt departure of User:Simeon from this discussion?--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:58, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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:: Some scalar values in Newtonian mechanics are conserved because there exist associated conservative fields (or more generally [[Noether's Theorem|symmetries of the Lagrangian]]).  What is an example of a scalar value in the Newtonian mechanics that is not of this type, which makes this a conservative theory of motion while relativity is not?
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::I don't know why relativity's defenders won't confront this.  Maybe that could be the topic of the debate page -- I'm interested using this discussion to sharpen counterexample 21. --[[User:KyleT|KyleT]] 23:55, 2 August 2010 (EDT)
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::: This is a really interesting discussion. I think I made a gross mistake in my first post. The theory of relativity urges us to think of the three space coordinates (x, y, and z) and the time coordinate (t) as four coordinates of space-time - that is, that space and time are pretty much the same. I extrapolated from this that since there can be a (conservative) gravitational field in space coordinates, there can also be some sort of conservative field depending on the time coordinate. I then extrapolated this notion to special relativity, and the twin paradox; I postulated that maybe time dilation effects were the work of a non-conservative field that was dependent on the t-coordinate. Now I see that this was all somewhat foolish. However, I wanted to ask you all: can you have a conservative or non-conservative field with respect to time? If not, I think time should '''not''' be considered as almost the same thing as x, y, z space. I feel that the ability for a dimension to have a field (conservative or not) is integral to its being considered a space-like dimension.
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::: Aschlafly, the fact that the twin paradox exists in general relativity is '''irrelevant'''. Yes, sure, the twin paradox occurs within space where general relativity is working, but there are no effects acting on the twins that influences the twin paradox in any way. Likewise, User:Simeon 's departure is also '''irrelevant'''.
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::: What about black holes, though? Surely their gravitational fields aren't conservative, since once an object passes the event horizon, you can't retrieve it. [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 01:24, 3 August 2010 (EDT)
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Phyllis:
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You seem to be very curious about this topic.  I'm going to try to give an intuitive, but nevertheless scientifically correct, explanation of what is going on with relativity, the "twin paradox", and vector fields, potential functions, and path integrals.  This explanation will probably seem long and tedious, for which I apologize in advance.  I also apologize if it seems that I am being too "folksy", or talking down to you.  Please bear with me, and please pay close attention.
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We have a parking lot, and two twins, who are fitness enthusiasts and always wear pedometers wherever they go.  There are two spots, "X" and "Y", painted on the parking lot.  Both people stand on spot "X", set their pedometers to zero, and start walking.  Twin A simply walks directly to spot Y.  Twin B, being more into fitness, walks all over the place, eventually arriving at B.
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Now there are quite a number of things we can say.  First, the temperatures vary all over the place.  They are a ''scalar field''.  That means that they are associated with ''location on the parking lot'', not with any particular observer.  They are objective measurements that everyone agrees on, because they are aspects of space itself.  Our fitness enthusiasts are also amateur meteorologists, and carry thermometers around with them.
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::Twin A: "When I was at the green Toyota, I noticed that the temperature was 67 degrees Fahrenheit."
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::Twin B: "By coincidence, I also wandered past the green Toyota, and got the same reading."
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By the way, since temperature is a scalar field, it has a gradient, which is a vector field.  That field is conservative, according to the theorem of mathematical physics that says that curl grad &Phi; = 0 always.  This gradient is a ''vector field''.  Like the scalar of temperature, it is a property of the ''space (parking lot) itself''.  If the twins had been measuring this gradient (perhaps they carry around fancy "differential thermometers"), they would have gotten the same vector at the green Toyota.
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There is also a theorem of mathematical physics, sort of the opposite of the theorem above, that says that, if a vector field V has a curl of zero:
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*You can make a scalar field <math>\Phi\,</math> (a property of the space itself, not tied to any particular observer) that it is the gradient of.  That scalar field is called the "potential" for the (conservative) vector field.  (By the way, this is very closely related to "exact differential equations" that you wrote about!  Do you see the connection?)
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*If you integrate that vector field along any path between two points A and B (that is, you calculate
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:::<math>\int_A^B \vec{V} \cdot dl</math>
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for that path, where "dl" is the "line element" along the path), you will get <math>\Phi(B)-\Phi(A)\,</math>.
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*Since <math>\Phi(B)-\Phi(A)\,</math> is a property of the scalar field itself (and the points A and B), it follows that that path integral is the same for all paths.  And if the path ends on the same point it started on, the integral is zero.
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::Twin A: "I was measuring the gradient of the temperature as I walked, and calculating its path integral as I went. I got an answer of 4 degrees."
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::Twin B: "I was doing the same.  My integral was much harder to calculate, because I was going all over the place.  But I also got 4 degrees.  Hey, wait a minute!  The temperature at the start point was 68 degrees, and at the end point it was 72 degrees.  That explains it."
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Now someone at the edge of the parking lot was running a Van deGraff generator, so there were electric fields all over the place.  The twins are also physics students, and carry electroscopes wherever they go.  They measured the electric field, and calculated its path integrals.  The electric field is conservative (in the absence of varying magnetic fields), so they got the same integral.  That integral was 600 volts (it's only static electricity, so it isn't dangerous).  Since the electric field is conservative, there is, by the previous theorem, a potential function.  That function was 600 volts higher at point B than at point A.
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Now here's the kicker:
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::Twin A: "I walked directly from A to B.  My pedometer says 150 feet."
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::Twin B: "I took a long route all over the place.  I walked half a mile."
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The pedometer readings ''are not a scalar field''.  They are not a property of the space itself.  They are properties of the observers.  Even though they, in some sense, measure an aspect of the parking lot (how many molecules of asphalt one passes), they are artifacts of the twins' actions.
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The twins could have been integrating their motion vectors; that's sort of what pedometers do.  But those vectors are not a vector field on the space itself.  It makes no sense to ask whether that "vector field" is conservative, because it isn't a vector field.  A vector (or scalar, or tensor) field has to be a property ''of the space itself''.  These "pedometer vectors" are just things that the twins make up as they walk.
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Now for the "twin paradox".  The parking lot is replaced by "Minkowski space", also called "4-dimensional space-time".  "Points" in this space are now "events", complete with a time.  Events A and B are now the act of the twins saying goodbye as one of them got into the rocket, and the act of them re-uniting after B returns.  Twin A took a direct route (called her "world line") from A to B.  She used a coordinate system in which the spatial coordinates of A and B were the same (Cape Canaveral, latitude yada yada, etc.) and the time coordinate differed by 30 years (2010 to 2040.)  B went to Alpha Centauri and back.  When she returned, they were both using the same coordinate system (location is Cape Canaveral, latitude yada yada, time is 2040.)  But she looks at her watch, and only 5 years have elapsed!  What the watch shows is ''not a scalar field on spacetime''.  It was ''not the path integral of a vector field on spacetime''.  What she integrated was the ticking of her watch, nothing more.
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The path that A took is called a geodesic.  It is the Minkowski-space equivalent of a "straight line".  But, because of the peculiarities of relativity, it shows the ''longest'' elapsed time (30 years) of all paths, rather than the shortest.  By going to Alpha Centauri, twin B took a shorter path, in terms of the way path length is measured in Minkowski space.
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Very interesting fact:  The path length in Minkowski space, that is, the sum of the tiny distances as measured by the Lorentz/Minkowski metric, ''is the same as the local time''.  That is (assuming you are using the "spacelike convention"), everyone's wristwatch measures path length along their own world line.  The twins simply followed paths of different lengths.  That's all there is to the "twin paradox".  (That is, that's all there is to it, if you analyze it correctly, as I have described above.  Most introductory treatments of relativity don't do it this way.  They just throw the Lorentz transform at you.)
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Now there are a few points about the "twin paradox" that people find confusing.
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First, aren't the laws of physics supposed to be the same for everyone?  What made twin B's watch run slower?  Well, she ''knew'' she was traveling at high speed.  She brought an accelerometer with her in the rocket.  Just as twin B in the parking lot knew she was walking all over the place, turning around and such, twin B in space knew that her world-line was turning, and therefore wasn't a straight line (geodesic).  How did she know?  It takes force to make you deviate from a geodesic (this is really pretty much the same as Newton's laws of motion), and she felt the force.
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Second, how can we analyze the curvature of B's world line?  Here's where general relativity has to come in.  As soon as world lines start to curve, you have to measure their curvature, that is "geodesic curvature".  You get into complicated issues of curved coordinate systems (you're in one now; it's what you perceive as "gravity"!), and curved spacetime, and so on.  And you get into the <math>\Gamma\,</math> symbols, which measure the deviation from a geodesic, and hence the "fictitious forces" that you feel.  This is why general relativity is related to the "twin paradox", in that the space ship followed a curved trajectory and experienced acceleration.  But, to analyze the plain facts of the "twin paradox", all you really need to know is that twin B followed a crooked line.  Place your ruler on a diagonal on the graph of Minkowski space, draw the line out to Alpha Centauri.  Turn the ruler, draw the returning line.  Ignore the impossibly sharp corners.  Use special relativity to analyze the Lorentz transform for each section of B's world line.
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Oh, and to try to answer some of your specific questions, the gravitational field, under either Newtonian or relativistic mechanics, is a conservative field. Its curl is zero.  If it weren't, conservation of energy would be violated, and we could make a perpetual motion machine by having a planet run around in circles picking up energy.  The "curl=0" aspect of gravity under general relativity is more complicated, because true vector fields have to be on Minkowski space, but it still conserves energy.  When Mercury orbits the Sun, its perihelion precesses because of relativistic effects, but its energy is conserved.
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I'll try to think some more about your black hole question and get back to you.
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[[User:Simeon|Simeon]] 00:00, 4 August 2010 (EDT)
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:Simeon, thanks so much for your long explanation! All of that made sense to me, and cleared up the issue of field as property of space vs. path specific to person vs. curved spacetime. Also, yes, I noticed the similarity between exact differential equations and deriving potential functions from vector fields - the former I studied in Differential Equations and the latter I studied in Multivariable Calculus.
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:So, if I understand you properly, gravity both (a) curves spacetime and (b) creates a conservative field. (I derived (a) from your point: "You get into complicated issues of curved coordinate systems (you're in one now; it's what you perceive as "gravity"!)", and (b) from your point: "the gravitational field, under either Newtonian or relativistic mechanics, is a conservative field.  Its curl is zero.") However, you're saying that if you are in an accelerating reference frame (such as a quickly-spinning merry-go-round) only (a) occurs; there is no field. Is this correct? If so, why is there this discrepancy between the two? [[User:PhyllisS|PhyllisS]] 22:54, 4 August 2010 (EDT)
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Latest revision as of 01:49, 27 November 2018

For a point-by-point summary of this page, see Essay - Counterexamples to relativity points.

See also the page Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity

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Notice of Pending Revision

It's been over a week now since the reversion (on 9th December) of several edits I made. Despite my request, now explanation has been posted, in contrast to the explanations I gave for each of my changes. I therefore see it only fit to return the article to the state I left it in.

However, to avoid 'edit wars' I think it only fair to give notification of this, to allow a final chance for justification of the reversion.

The specific changes are:

  • Removal of the item: '27. Relativity requires different values for the inertia of a moving object: in its direction of motion, and perpendicular to that direction. This contradicts the logical principle that the laws of physics are the same in all directions.' since it is a duplicate of '10. The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass -- does this act on the rest mass or the relativistic mass?'
  • Removal of '26. The lack of useful devices developed based on any insights provided by the theory; no lives have been saved or helped, and the theory has not led to other useful theories and may have interfered with scientific progress. This stands in stark contrast with every verified theory of science.' After much discussion on this page, it seems generally agreed that there useful devices in existence. (I appreciate that some mention of GPS may be necessary, but a footnote, however valid, cannot justify the presence of the invalid section in the main article to which it is attached. GPS can have it's own separate entry on this page as a counterexample, if need be.)

AugustO 10:35, 31 December 2011 (EST)

  • Removal of '30. The Ehrenfest Paradox ...', '31. The Twin Paradox ...' and '10. The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle...' since these are paradoxes and (as discussed above) are not appropriate to a page of counterexamples. These entries have already been moved to and expanded upon in the main Relativity page.

--QPR 10:26, 17 December 2011 (EST)

I've now implemented these changes since no objection has been forthcoming to my explaination above, posted in accordance with editting etiquette. If there are any objections please discuss them here rather than engaging in revert wars. --QPR 13:36, 30 December 2011 (EST)
Sorry, just noticing these comments now. Let's discuss before removing insights from entries.
Items 27 and 10 are similar, but not identical. 27 highlights a conflict between Relativity and basic principles of physics; item 10 emphasizes an internal contradiction in the theory that remains unanswered.
Item 26 remains unrebutted. Relativity has produced nothing of value.
Item 30 and 31 are logical problems which are valid counterexamples, given that Relativity claims to be based on logic.--Andy Schlafly 22:58, 30 December 2011 (EST)

Items 10, 27, and 31 should be taken out because they are just wrong, and make Conservapedia look lazy. Anyone who has learned about relativity from any college-level textbook less than about 40 or 50 years old knows how to do the calculations involving relativistic velocity, momentum, force, and acceleration. Our readers know this, and items 10 and 27 will just leave them scratching their heads about the diligence of Conservapedia. Item 31, the "twin paradox", is also very well known. The fact that something has the word "paradox" in its name doesn't mean that the subject is flawed. Otherwise, we would have to take the Russel paradox too seriously, and perhaps conclude that this: "The next sentence is false. The preceding sentence is true" means that the universe will blow up. The phrase "twin paradox" is simply a name. Everyone knows what is going on. Even Einstein. If it were actually a counterexample, this fact would be well known by now.JudyJ 10:11, 31 December 2011 (EST)

  • 10: The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass - does this act on the rest mass or the relativistic mass? It applies to the relativistic mass: that is observable in a cyclotron. So, it is one of those question you may speculate or philosophy all day long, but do the experiment (and the mass), and it is answered.
  • 27: Relativity requires different values for the inertia of a moving object: in its direction of motion, and perpendicular to that direction. This contradicts the logical principle that the laws of physics are the same in all directions. In light of the above, this seems to be wrong.
  • 30: The Ehrenfest Paradox interesting paradox, solvable and no counterexample
  • 31: The Twin Paradox no counterexample to relativity, it's solved in any physic's course on this subject
  • 26: The lack of useful devices developed based on any insights provided by the theory please re-read the archives, they include plenty material on the GPS (though you seem to ignore it)

AugustO 10:36, 31 December 2011 (EST)

On the points 10 and 27 issue, whilst they may or may not be duplicates, may or may not be counterexamples, they're still just plain wrong, reflecting a fundamental misunderstanding of the basics of relativity. According to Special Relativity, the inertial mass of a body appears the same to all observers who are in the same inertial frame of reference (i.e. who are moving at the same velocity as each other, which may be different from that of the body being observed). If a force is applied to the body it will produce an acceleration of the same magnitude (though obviously in a different direction) regardless of the direction of the force. The force itself can in no sense be an 'observer' since it has no velocity. For observers in a different non-inertial frame, they will observe a different magnitude of acceleration, but it will still be the same regardless of the direction of the force. --QPR 12:27, 31 December 2011 (EST)

I deleted #10 and #27. AugustO 11:06, 1 January 2012 (EST)

Andy, you've reverted an edit that everyone involved in the discussion other than yourself seems to be agreed upon. Can you please at least attempt to justify your position? --QPR 13:20, 1 January 2012 (EST)

deletion of educational information is disfavored on this site; deletions restored How can the perpetuation of false information be educational? AugustO 15:37, 1 January 2012 (EST)

This entire page is ludicrous. If you don't believe in Einstein's relativity, then do you believe in Galilean relativity? If Einstein's relativity is correct up to small corrections, does it invalidate cultural relativism? Ironically, this page signifies to me that Conservapedia itself is an exercise in relative truth; the idea that individuals are entitled to make up whatever facts are consistent with their preconceptions. Aram 16:26, 1 January 2012 (EST)

Relativity breaks down if a solenoid is traveling at or near the speed of light.

As a source for the statement this discussion on physicsforum.org is given. Here are all the contributions to this discussion:

A Dhingra The moment the magnetic field is generated, it should take some time to reach some distance. It cannot reach infinity instantly, it should have some speed, and that speed cannot be more than that of light. So let’s say that the newly generated magnetic field, through a current carrying wire, travels with the speed of light. Now for the application of the faraday’s law, let’s bring a magnet near a solenoid, through which initially no current flows, and make the magnet move with the speed of light. Will there be electromagnetic induction observed in this case?

Take another case, when instead of a magnet we have a different circuit containing a solenoid through which current flows when the switch is made on, and this circuit is held stationary moving the other one with the speed of light. Will there be electromagnetic induction observed in this case? What I think is that, as the system without current is moving as fast as the magnetic field … it never gets the chance to cut the magnetic field and cause induction to occur in the solenoid. So there should be no induction. But there is relative motion between the two systems and (also there is NO time varying magnetic field through the moving solenoid,)AND no induced current will be produced ... so will the induction take place or not...?? if induction does not take place then the principle or relativity goes wrong......

DaleSpam You cannot make a magnet move with the speed of light. It is a physically impossible premise, so you shouldn't be surprised that assuming it leads to contradictions.
A Dhingra ... can't it be just a thought experiment like many other paradoxes available....

with that assumption, think about the result.......

DaleSpam Obviously, if you violate the principle of relativity in your question then the answer must be that the principle of relativity is violated. It is just the most basic logic. Non-physical assumptions lead to non-physical conclusions. This says nothing whatsoever about physics, only about your question.
A Dhingra ok........

i agree that the situation is not realistic........ but still i didn't like the fact that one should not think beyond the laws made by humans himself.......

DaleSpam This is elementary logic. If you have any set of axioms (A) which logically imply some result (B) then if your premise is not(B) then you must logically conclude not(A). This is called transposition and is one of the fundamental rules of logic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposition_(logic)

SR logically implies that a solenoid must move slower than light (STL), therefore if you assume that a solenoid can move with the speed of light you must logically conclude that special relativity (SR) is violated. Written in the usual format for logic: (SR → STL) ↔ (~STL → ~SR)

Whether or not the situation is realistic and whether or not SR is a "law made by humans himself" is actually only a secondary concern. This is primarily an exercise in basic logic. Note that I am agreeing with your OP. Under the stated premise (~STL) you must indeed logically conclude that "the principle of relativity goes wrong" (~SR).

vector22 to make the experiment fair you would have to calculate what would happen to the solenoid at half light speed and then go from there.
netheril96 If you want to think beyond relativity, invent your own laws of physics. If you want to explain in terms of relativity, then think within relativity.
A Dhingra can you help me go about finding this result......

(considering the magnetic field to be varying with time ...... as it is getting produced ...

How does this discussion support the claim? This source seems to be unsuitable and therefore it should be deleted, and the statement marked again to be unsourced.

AugustO 02:00, 2 January 2012 (EST)

Previous arguments

I'm creating a page Essay - Counterexamples to relativity points, the purpose of this is to ensure that arguments are not repeated by people who find the article, not realising that their objections have already been discussed, and removed as part of a cleanup of the talkpage. The page is NOT a place to make points, but a place to see if your objection has already been made, and save everybody time by reading the responses yourself, and then bringing up the objection only if you have a new point to make. Because the numbers for counterexamples change, the page will not include the number of the counterexample, only the text of it. Although I will try to put them in order. I know that to begin with, many old arguments will not be included, but hopefully it will eventually become a very useful resource for those wishing to make contributions to the page. - JamesCA 21:29, 4 January 2012 (EST)

While I appreciate the positive intent behind this idea, I do fear that it risks making Conservapedia look even sillier in this area than it already does. The problem is the implicit suggestion that this new page is in any way 'definitive'. Given that the issues surrounding Einsteinian Relativity have been discussed across the planet for over a century, and that the results of those discussions are available on-line, in textbooks and elsewhere, then it is unlikely that anyone will give a page on Conservapedia very much credence, particularly if it is seen to support this page, which puts forth views that very few with an understanding of the field share.
The real problem is that the counterexamples page itself is not a genuine encyclopaedia entry, but the personal fiefdom of one contributor with little understanding of the subject matter and a bee in his bonnet about a spurious connection between Einsteinian Relativity and Moral Relativism. Unfortunately that contributor has administrator privileges, which he finds more effective in making his case than resorting to rational argument. Perhaps it would be better if the counterexamples page itself became an essay page, to make absoultely clear that it presents a personal point of view. --QPR 10:06, 5 January 2012 (EST)
Anyone who finds Conservapedia silly because of this page will not think it is any sillier because of the new page. For many who see this page, it is a joke, and won't think any less of it because of the new page. The problem with turning this page into an essay is that those who support this page believe that it is not merely a page of personal opinion, but factually accurate. Perhaps I should put a disclaimer at the top of the page then? Something like 'this should not be seen as approving of the counterexamples, but as approval of productive discussion concerning the points'. Also, it should be noted that at the moment, every counterexample listed on the new page have outstanding objections to them, which have not been answered. - JamesCA 21:05, 5 January 2012 (EST)
I hate to go raining on the parade again here, but science is argued by evidence--it is not enough to produce a counter example and highlight the "god of the gaps". There are paradoxical observations under any established paradigm in any field. This does not mean that the entire paradigm is incorrect, simply that there are gaps in the evidence that must be addressed in order to improve extant models. This is the primary reason that trained scientists find this page silly. There are tons of holes in relativity, just as there were massive holes in Darwin's original theory of natural selection (as a biologist, I am far more familiar with how the latter example has been, quite successfully, addressed), the notion that "there are some discrepancies with theory X, therefore goddidit" is an obvious logical fallacy. Rather than poking holes in an outdated model, it is far more scientific to argue in favor of an alternate model using evidence. The central caveat here, and one that must be carefully beaten out of every experiment, is that evidence cannot be approached with the intention of supporting a particular hypothesis--a model must be built around the evidence, not the other way around. That's why scientists laugh at the term "creation science", science is not about hunting for evidence in support of a pre-formed theory, it is about impartially collecting evidence and then letting said evidence speak for itself.
Having said that. I must acknowledge that this article is not explicitly (although, it is implied) about advancing one viewpoint over another--it is simply about highlighting perceived inconsistencies in the theory of relativity. By itself, that is not a ridiculous premise at all. However, because this page is more of an editorial than an academic encyclopedia article, this page itself probably should have been classified as an "essay" to begin with. --RudrickBoucher 14:13, 6 January 2012 (EST)
In my opinion, the article is really a list of anomalies and paradoxes, not counterexamples. The anomalies are observations that need some additional explanation, and that may or may not require an adjustment to relativity. The paradoxes seem like contradictions or contrary to common sense, but have explanations. RSchlafly 00:58, 7 January 2012 (EST)
If someone thinks that Relativity must be true as a matter of logic, then any and all evidence to the contrary is not going to change that view. "Paradox" might be an appropriate term for ostensible contradictions in logic. But the terms "paradox" and "anomaly" are not suitable for observable science.--Andy Schlafly 19:00, 7 January 2012 (EST)
No, it is the term "true as a matter of logic" that is not suitable for observable science. Perhaps your real complaint is with those who push scientific statements as being true as a matter of logic. If so, I suggest renaming the article to "Counterexamples to Einsteinian thinking". RSchlafly 01:09, 8 January 2012 (EST)
I think at least one major college teaches Relativity as a course in the math department rather than being listed primarily in the physics department.--Andy Schlafly 15:28, 8 January 2012 (EST)
If the terms "paradox" and "anomaly" are not suitable for observable science, what are they doing on this page? --QPR 17:26, 8 January 2012 (EST)
Strictly speaking, all sciences are "observational" sciences; the semantic distinction between observational science and experimental science is arbitrary at best. Even in a tightly-controlled experiment, the goal is still to observe the outcome of the experiment in order to make some inference about the processes involved. In other words, an experiment is intended as nothing more than an indirect observation of natural phenomena that are not readily directly observable.
A "paradox", by the most reductive definition, is when the available evidence suggests two contradictory hypotheses. Whereas an "anomaly" is an observation that does not conform to the hypothesis suggested by the previously available evidence. Both of these terms are quite appropriate to use in any scientific or logical context. When a scientist encounters a paradox or an anomaly, it implies that there is a fundamental gap in the theoretical understanding of his or her field. Seeking out evidence to address these gaps allows for scientists to adjust their theoretical models in order to more precisely explain the observed phenomena. --RudrickBoucher 22:32, 8 January 2012 (EST)

RudrickBoucher, since we already established that you are not a biologist, shouldn't you say "as someone who likes to pretend to be a biologist". Conservative 20:59, 8 January 2012 (EST)

Conservative, I have a BS in cell and molecular biology (CMB) from the top undergraduate CMB program in the country, several years of laboratory experience doing developmental biology research, just as many publications (a couple of which, I first-authored), I also have teaching experience in introductory biology (AP biology and college-level intro bio), graduate level course-work in developmental biology, and, as of this coming fall, I will either be a first-year medical student or a developmental biology PhD candidate (I've been accepted into programs for both, but not a combined MD/PhD program just yet). In short, I am allowed to call myself a "biologist" because it is my profession--it may sound pretentious, but it saves on typing. --RudrickBoucher 22:32, 8 January 2012 (EST)

RudrichBoucher, a profession is something one does to earn money and have a net positive cash flow, while students often invest money in education and often have low earnings or debt accumulation. Perhaps you should consider taking an introductory course in finance so you better understand the concepts of cash flow and investment! :) I would also suggest taking a course in ethics at a Christian university so you no longer claim to be a biologist and then retract that claim like you did at this wiki. Conservative 22:48, 8 January 2012 (EST)

I was paid for my research and for the teaching. Although, admittedly, not very well for either (as neither science nor teaching pays particularly well). I retracted the claim on the "15 questions" essay only after you had already edited it--in the name of diplomatically avoiding a pointless edit war. Similarly, I referenced my biological inclination above as a gesture of humility, to admit that my background in physics is relatively limited. On that note, what are your credentials? Have you spent seven years meticulously learning a specific field like I have? Have you published any papers? Are you a member of any professional research societies? Admittedly, I have at least another six years of education to go, but I can legitimately claim some level of expertise in my field. I don't say these things to brag, say them to lend credibility to my arguments. Finally, as I've mentioned before, I was raised Catholic and I spent my first two years of college at a Methodist school--where I did have the privilege of taking an ethics class (and I very much enjoyed it). So please, let's cut the ad hominem attacks and focus on the discussion at hand. --RudrickBoucher 23:44, 8 January 2012 (EST)
Of those who credit Einstein for relativity, they often argue that Einstein's approach was superior because he ignored observations and presented relativity as being something that must be true as a matter of logic. The Einstein scholars acknowledge that Lorentz and Poincare had all the relativity formulas before Einstein, but Lorentz and Poincare were not true believers because they conceded that the theory could be disproved by experiment.
So the case could be made that there is an Einsteinian-relativity-philosophy that is a is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions, that is based on postulates taken on faith, and that ignores experimental evidence. If so, then maybe the page should be explicit about what is being attacked. All real science is based on experimental evidence. RSchlafly 21:19, 8 January 2012 (EST)
RSchlafly, please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that even Einstein considered relativity to be a mathematical approximation. One that precisely, but still somewhat inaccurately, explained the then-available evidence; in a manner similar to the proverbial physicist who, for ease of calculation, treats a horse as a circle. Anybody who has taken more than a year of calculus-based physics (or, even introductory college astronomy), knows the very real limitations of relativity. If anything, these limitations are just as dogmatic as relativity itself. Therefore, the notion that questioning relativity is taboo in intellectual circles (an underlying premise of this page) is patently ridiculous. Poking holes in relativity, and then seeking to explain them, has been one of the great ongoing projects in physics for the past seventy years. --RudrickBoucher 22:32, 8 January 2012 (EST)
I agree that questioning relativity is not taboo. The 2011 Nobel Prize in physics was for observations that caused a modification of general relativity. The biggest physics story of the year was the Italian claim that neutrinos go faster than light, contrary to relativity. Physicists often talk about replacing relativity with some unified field theory or quantum theory. RSchlafly 02:51, 9 January 2012 (EST)
That makes me wonder why there isn't a "Counterexamples to Quantum Mechanics" page here as well. --RudrickBoucher 09:11, 9 January 2012 (EST)
There are a lot of anomalies and paradoxes in quantum mechanics also. RSchlafly 18:05, 9 January 2012 (EST)

A few more things

All right, more problems with this article:

15. The failure to discover gravitons, despite wasting hundreds of millions in taxpayer money in searching.
18. The inability of the theory to lead to other insights, contrary to every verified theory of physics.
24. The theory predicts natural formation of highly ordered (and thus low entropy) black holes despite the increase in entropy required by the Second Law of Thermodynamics

15: General relativity does not predict gravitons! Gravitons are massless spin-two particles predicted by QFT that lead to linear GR. (Though the spirit is different; in QFT, the h's--the metric perturbations--are a tensor representing field strength on a background Minkowski spacetime. In GR these represent curvature in spacetime.)
18: Untrue--Consider the Dirac equation. It predicted spin, which was not predicted by Schrodinger theory. It also predicted negative energy states (antiparticles), and QFT has been fundamental to particle physics.
24: Yet another horrible misunderstanding. Consider an ideal gas with N particles. Assume the total number of particles is conserved (it obviously doesn't have to be, but this is an idealized case). First of all, Newtonian gravity also predicts that a star will contract to a point without hydrostatic pressure--due to their mutual gravitational attraction. Should we start a "counterexamples to gravity" page? You've forgotten one thing: there's a term in the expression for the entropy that involves thermal energy!!! In other words (roughly speaking) the gas "warms up" so that the second law of thermodynamics is not violated. AndyFrankinson 20:43, 8 January 2012 (EST)

Very well said! While I'm in a commenting-frenzy, I'd like to add to your points.
Re: #15. It's not a waste of time or money to reject a hypothesis. To quote Enrico Fermi, "If the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery."
Re: #18. Relativity HAS led to other [1].
Re: #24. The second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems. In the case of stellar black hole formation, gravitational pressure must exceed the sum of the thermal pressure, supplied by ongoing fusion in the stellar core, and the core degeneracy pressure, provided courtesy of the Pauli exclusion principle. Achieving this condition is, necessarily, a very violent event, complete with giant explosions, gamma ray bursts, and spewing jets of super-heated gas. When considering the entirety of the system giving rise to a black hole, and not just the resulting black hole itself, entropy certainly does increase. --RudrickBoucher 23:19, 8 January 2012 (EST)
Hello! Thanks for the comments. And sorry about #24, like I said, the model I gave is slightly idealized b/c I haven't studied the subject in detail. AndyFrankinson 07:58, 9 January 2012 (EST)
No problem, I was in a bit of a commenting frenzy anyway. I'm guessing, because you referred to the ideal gas law, that you have some chemistry background?
Also, I've had students throw the second law of thermodynamics at me when I'm trying to explain evolution. The Earth's surface isn't a closed system either because it's constantly receiving energy from the sun--so the second law of thermodynamics is inapplicable there as well. The only truly closed system that I can think of is in Washington...and, yes, entropy there is always increasing! --RudrickBoucher 09:05, 9 January 2012 (EST)
Actually, I'm terrible at chemistry! My background is in physics and math. You talk about ideal gasses in any physics class where you discuss thermodynamics. But yeah, that's one of the classical misunderstandings among creationists. One thing I saw suggested that next time someone brings it up, ask them about the other laws of thermodynamics. What I also like about the second law of thermodynamics argument is that they don't seem to understand what entropy is and why it increases. So yeah, next time someone brings it up ask them about those things. AndyFrankinson 20:18, 9 January 2012 (EST)
Can I please delete these "counterexamples"? AndyFrankinson 20:32, 12 January 2012 (EST)
I say go for it. You've justified why they should be deleted and your justification has met with no objection. If somebody wishes to restore them, they are welcome to object here.
As an aside, there does seem to be a disproportionate number of math and physics types on here. It is interesting how the life sciences tend to be predominantly liberal, whereas there's a more even distribution of political ideology in the physical sciences. There are conservative biologists (my old PI, for example), but they are very few and very far between. Knowledge of evolution does not seem to be a factor here, because understanding / acceptance of evolution is nearly universal in all of the sciences. In biology, there is a (seemingly true, in my experience) stereotypical "personality" in each of the sub-disciplines; to reference other fields, the age-old dichotomy between chemists and chemical engineers seems to mostly hold true. I have always wondered if the "personality" of the fields would lead to the observed political differences, or if maybe there is something deeper.
Because I am afraid that my above observation may be taken grossly out of context, I must add to it the disclaimer that I am not in any way suggesting "indoctrination" of students in one field versus another (or making some other similarly fatuous insinuation). I am simply making an observation, and speculating on its possible cause. --RudrickBoucher 21:25, 12 January 2012 (EST)

These counterexamples are not adequately rebutted above:

15. The failure to discover gravitons, despite wasting hundreds of millions in taxpayer money in searching.

If Relativists are not even going to accept the results of experiments that cost hundreds of millions of dollars, then they are a waste of money.

18. The inability of the theory to lead to other insights, contrary to every verified theory of physics.

If you can give examples in your own words, then please do.

24. The theory predicts natural formation of highly ordered (and thus low entropy) black holes despite the increase in entropy required by the Second Law of Thermodynamics

This statement is true also. The dramatic decrease in entropy predicted by Relativity is contrary to the Second Law. No known mechanism offsets that decrease.--Andy Schlafly 23:39, 12 January 2012 (EST)
re: 15. The existence of gravitons was hypothesized in an attempt to reconcile relativity with quantum mechanics. General relativity, by itself, does not predict the existence of gravitons. Furthermore, money spent testing a hypothesis that is ultimately not supported is not "wasted" (otherwise, I'd be out of a job)--the knowledge gained in testing the hypothesis allows a better hypothesis to be formulated.
re: 18. General relativity correctly predicted gravitational lensing, the existence of black holes, and the accelerating expansion of the universe. Additionally (and this is the first example that I can come up with off of the top of my head, RSchlafly probably knows a few better ones), relativistic effects must be compensated for to maximize the accuracy of satellite-based GPS systems.
re: 24. Black hole formation results in a net increase in entropy when considering the system as a whole. If you were to consider just the mass of the resultant black hole as a closed system, the degeneracy forces outweigh the net gravitational force significantly enough to prevent collapse into a schwarzschild radius. In just overcoming this by itself (as theoretically happens in super-massive black holes), there would be a massive output of emitted particles (radiation), which would still result in a net increase in the entropy of the system.
These counterexamples are not valid. Plain and simple. --RudrickBoucher 01:10, 13 January 2012 (EST)
General relativity did not predict the accelerating expansion of the universe. It predicted that the expansion would be slowing. Most physicists say that the GR equations must be modified to accommodate the accelerating expansion.
I don't get the entropy argument. I always assumed that a black hole would have all the entropy of the collapsing star and matter falling in. Is there a source for saying that black holes have low entropy? As the footnote says, Hawking has an explanation. Is there something wrong with that explanation? RSchlafly 04:29, 13 January 2012 (EST)
Um...I did address all your concerns, Andy....

These counterexamples are not adequately rebutted above:

15. The failure to discover gravitons, despite wasting hundreds of millions in taxpayer money in searching.

If Relativists are not even going to accept the results of experiments that cost hundreds of millions of dollars, then they are a waste of money. Wait, gravitons are predicted by GR?! Please send me a link to the derivation!!!

18. The inability of the theory to lead to other insights, contrary to every verified theory of physics.

If you can give examples in your own words, then please do. I did!!!! Not to be rude, but did you see what I wrote above? Dirac equation! Spin! Antiparticles! Quantum Field theory! Particle physics! The Standard Model!

24. The theory predicts natural formation of highly ordered (and thus low entropy) black holes despite the increase in entropy required by the Second Law of Thermodynamics

This statement is true also. The dramatic decrease in entropy predicted by Relativity is contrary to the Second Law. No known mechanism offsets that decrease Yes, yes, yes, temperature increase is unknown to physics!
(Again I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just wondering if there was a glitch or something b/c, as I said, these were all addressed above.) AndyFrankinson 19:48, 13 January 2012 (EST)

The footnote for #8 says that the calculations are "complicated or contrived", and that the fundamental formula was "conformed" to match the observed perihelion precession. No one doubts that the derivation is complicated. But "conformed" seems to say that something was "tweaked" to match the precession. The formula is complicated to solve but simple to write: . There's nothing in it that can be "tweaked"--not 8, not pi, and not K (Newton's constant of gravitation.)JudyJ 17:08, 21 January 2012 (EST)

Yep, this is also confusing to me. Does Andy Schlafly know relativity? As you said, nothing can be tweaked in that equation (to "conform" to whatever events). The tensor that represents curvature has to have divergence 0, so that energy-momentum is locally conserved, and the 8*pi*G is determined from the fact that it has to reduce to Newtonian gravity in the weak-field limit. AndyFrankinson 19:47, 23 January 2012 (EST)

Recent reversion

Andy, while your recent change did keep the link to the rebuttal page, don't you think it would only be fair to also keep the note that the page is controversial? Regardless who is actually right or wrong, I don't think it would be fair to anyone reading 'The Trustworthy Encyclopaedia' for them to pick up the impression that the ideas on this page are not very widely disputed. --QPR 16:05, 29 January 2012 (EST)

The whole article is a list of relativity controversies. It says at the top that it is contrary to what liberals promote. Isn't that clear? RSchlafly 21:04, 29 January 2012 (EST)
The point is, I think, that the very idea that there is a liberal/conservative division on this is itself controversial. Personally, I have not seen the issue raised anywhere except on Conservapedia, and even then only by a very small subset of contributors.
On a broader point, if opposing liberal points of view is, by definition, controversial, and given that such opposition is the raison d'être of Conservapedia, wouldn't a better tagline be "The Controversial Encyclopaedia"?--QPR 08:09, 30 January 2012 (EST)
It's a common tactic for the media to label someone they don't like as "controversial". But does anyone ever hear a liberal theory or politician called "controversial"? Was Ted Kennedy ever called "controversial" by the media?--Andy Schlafly 23:43, 29 January 2012 (EST)
Does this make string theory conservative, as it is often labeled controversial? AugustO 02:12, 30 January 2012 (EST)
No, I didn't suggest that everything the media disparages as "controversial" is conservative. String theory is a challenge to liberal orthodoxy from the Left.--Andy Schlafly 02:18, 30 January 2012 (EST)
Just to nail this down Andy, do you or do you not think that this page is controversial?--QPR 08:09, 30 January 2012 (EST)
Also, your question about Ted Kennedy looks rhetorical with the implied answer of 'no', and yet the answer is very clearly 'yes'. Googling "Ted Kennedy" and "controversial" gives 6.4 million hits. Obviously that doesn't mean the term is being applied to him in all cases, but in many of them (e.g. http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/us/2009/08/26/ted-kennedy-controversy#slide=1) it clearly is. Can you clarify the point you were making about him?--QPR 08:27, 30 January 2012 (EST)
The term "controversial" is not a good term for string theory. The major aspects are not disputed. A subject is not conservative just because some journalist mislabels it. RSchlafly 12:14, 31 January 2012 (EST)
That's the problem with science journalism these days. It overstates the implications of a lot of findings, oversimplifies key concepts, and often fails to accurately convey consensus opinions in a particular field. --JHunter 17:35, 31 January 2012 (EST)
Just wanted to add to this: I have never seen GR disputed anywhere but here. (Save for quantum gravity, of course). AndyFrankinson 19:28, 2 February 2012 (EST)

Neutrinos do not travel faster than light

The same lab that originally broke the story has confirmed a flaw in their experiment. Dr. Sandro Centro stated, "In fact I was a little sceptical since the beginning, now we are 100% sure that the speed of light is the speed of neutrinos.[...]I think they were a little bit in a hurry to publish something that was astonishing, and at the end of the day it was a wrong measurement."[2]

I hope he did not mean to say that, because neutrinos going at the speed of light would still contradict relativity (or other experiments). Neutrinos have mass, and must go slower than the speed of light. The article has a better statement: "they find that the neutrinos do travel at the same speed as light, within a small error range." RSchlafly 05:02, 17 March 2012 (EDT)

I took the part out - again: have a look at the updated press-release by CERN regarding the experiment: AugustO 10:48, 17 March 2012 (EDT)

The updates and corrections for the benefit of Relativists are less than persuasive. Is anyone claiming quote above ("now we are 100% sure that the speed of light is the speed of neutrinos") is inaccurate? Note, by the way, that the CERN experiment is not the only one that suggested neutrinos can travel at least as fast as the speed of light.--Andy Schlafly 11:57, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
Andy, perhaps you could write to either the ICARUS Collaboration or CERN seeking clarification of their results. After reading the actual paper[3](not the press release), it seems that the team is quite confident that their latest results are in complete agreement with Relativity. "Based on seven neutrino events, our result is in excellent agreement with Lorentz dependent velocities of neutrinos and of light. Neutrinos and GPS measurements are found to be sharply coincident in time within an uncertainty of a few nanoseconds, in disagreement with the superluminal result reported by the OPERA Collaboration." Yet you contend that the results from the very same experiment actually disproves Relativity. In this instance I simply think you are wrong. But who's to say that my interpretation of an article is any more accurate than yours? Obviously, we both can't be right. I think there must be a better way to settle this matter than combing through press releases. --JoshuaB 13:33, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
The new, updated claims seem more like political correctness than real science. Does the paper compare the updated results to the independent prior findings, by another experiment, that also suggested that neutrino speeds conflict with the politicized desires of Relativists?--Andy Schlafly 00:55, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
Political correctness? Come off it Schlafly. You do realize that there's far more fame and glory to be had for a physicist to prove GR wrong than there is to add to the growing list of supporting evidence? You do understand that, right? --JoshuaB 01:57, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
The opposite is obviously true. Those who even question the Theory of Relativity are risking their careers. No grad student can expect to receive a doctorate if he questions relativity; no associate professor can expect to receive tenure if he does likewise; and no tenured professor will ever win the Nobel Prize for questioning relativity.--Andy Schlafly 15:31, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
Yep, and no one will ever win a Nobel prize for questioning whether the Earth is round either. --BradleyS 18:29, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
There aren't 39 counterexamples to the spherical shape of the Earth. But if a doctoral candidate, tenure-track professor, or Nobel Prize wannabe repeats one of the 39 Counterexamples to Relativity, then he's risking retaliation against his career by liberals.--Andy Schlafly 18:52, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
There aren't 39 counterexamples to relativity and this page documents in detail what's wrong with each alleged "counterexample". The acceptance of relativity has to do with the theory passing extensive experimental scrutiny and nothing to do with "liberals". --BradleyS 19:29, 18 March 2012 (EDT)

Aschlafly said: "No grad student can expect to receive a doctorate if he questions relativity[...]" Yes. If a doctoral candidate whipped out almost any of your "counterexamples", in anything short of a joking fashion, they most likely would be signaling the end of their academic carrier. Why? It's simple. Advanced degrees are awarded to students who have shown a mastery of their particular field of study. Presenting this list of counterexamples in a doctoral thesis would only go towards illustrating that the student does not have a thorough understanding of SR or GR and thus should not offered a degree. No political correctness. No liberal conspiracy.
Aschlafly went on to say: "...no tenured professor will ever win the Nobel Prize for questioning relativity." You are 100% correct on this one. Why? Because anybody can sit around questioning anything. It doesn't take any particular knowledge, skill, education, or keen intellect to lob endless unanswerable questions. Otherwise Glenn Beck would have won the Nobel (and every other prize) by now. No, the proverbial (and many times literal) money is in answering questions. --JoshuaB 14:09, 21 March 2012 (EDT)

Italic text== GPS and Relativity ==

I'm in the process of getting a debate under way on 'GPS and Relativity' over at Talk:Theory of relativity. A this stage I would rather just have some references, especially any which show that Relativity is not used in the GPS system. Once we have some good references to look at, possibly in a week or two, we can then consider the evidence. RolandPlankton 08:59, 7 April 2012 (EDT)

Relativity is, in fact, used in the GPS system. The correction equations that must be used on the receiving side equipment are given in the official GPS interface specification, IS-GPS-200G [4], p.92. section 20.3.3.3.3.1: User Algorithm for SV Clock Correction.

The polynomial defined in the following allows the user to determine the effective SV PRN code phase offset referenced to the phase center of the antennas with respect to GPS system time (t) at the time of data transmission. The coefficients transmitted in subframe 1 describe the offset apparent to the twofrequency user for the interval of time in which the parameters are transmitted. This estimated correction accounts for the deterministic SV clock error characteristics of bias, drift and aging, as well as for the SV implementation characteristics of group delay bias and mean differential group delay. Since these coefficients do not include corrections for relativistic effects, the user's equipment must determine the requisite relativistic correction. Accordingly, the offset given below includes a term to perform this function...

Biblical Examples

You can't really use the Bible to prove that the Bible is correct. While I'm not disputing the Bible, that doesn't change the fact that it's a tautological argument. I could easily "prove" relativity by saying "Einstein said such-and-such" and conclude therefore that such-and-such is true. But in reality, that wouldn't prove anything because I'd essentially be saying "Einstein said this, therefore what Einstein said is correct". It's no different for the Bible. Even if we were to argue that the Bible represents absolute truth, keep in mind that our source for that is the Bible itself, so regardless of what you believe, it's still a tautological argument. I'm not going to remove the Biblical examples without discussion, but I don't think they belong here. Gregkochuconn 09:31, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

The roundness of the sun

I'm not completely familiar with the general and special theories of relativity, but what do they have to say about the roundness of the sun? DennyR 12:41, 18 August 2012 (EDT)

There is a relationship, though it's somewhat roundabout. See item #4 in the rebuttal page. JudyJ 17:54, 18 August 2012 (EDT)

Gravitational waves found

BBC article

LIGO Mark CS (talk) 22:35, 20 January 2017 (EST)

Lede quote

I would argue if anything needs to be changed it's the detail in point 4. The lede quote is recent and relevant, and more sources for it are available than just LiveScience. In looking into it more just now, I've found it's progressed. Apparently the evidence against relativity was so concerning to the scientific community they began immediately trying to explain it away and forced the person in charge to resign.[5][6] Evidence that the original results are wrong was just finished.[7] This displays the level of bias in the scientific community though, in trying to do all they can to protect the doctrine of relativity, and make it appear more substantiated and certain than it is. Maybe the quote should be removed, but it should be mentioned in point 4 regardless. That such major evidence was found in recent months against relativity and the scientific community sought so hard to cover it up, is news indeed. --Joshua Zambrano 05:47, 5 September 2012 (EDT)

No one mentioned in those articles believes that neutrinos travel faster than light. I don't see how the OPERA leaders' resignations provide any evidence. Sounds more like their team was ticked off at them for making them all look like fools. Spielman 13:12, 5 September 2012 (EDT)
The fact that it occurred like that shows relativity today is still under investigation, and not necessarily a proven fact - right? The scientific community is still trying to persuade everyone there is evidence for it. The effort to prove relativity correct is ongoing, rather than established like it was portrayed. --Joshua Zambrano 21:23, 5 September 2012 (EDT)

Removing material

Unless you are the site owner, please do not remove, dilute, or water down, or adulterate the items here. This page is extremely famous, and represents the views of the site owner. It has been quoted and cited in print and internet articles all over the world. It has over 1.8 million page views, more than 10 times as many as either the Counterexamples to an Old Earth and the Counterexamples to Evolution articles. If you think something is wrong, the Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity article is the place to bring it up.

I suppose "2+2=4" represents my views also, but the truth does not care whether I or anyone else agrees.--Andy Schlafly 23:59, 6 September 2012 (EDT)
Touché! Your point is well taken. Though I doubt that taking such a daring and controversial stand would get 1.8 million page views.  :-) JudyJ 22:36, 17 September 2012 (EDT)

27. RE:PSR B1913+16

Data from the PSR B1913+16 increasingly diverge from predictions of the General Theory of Relativity such that, despite a Nobel Prize in Physics being awarded for early work on this pulsar, no data at all have been released about it for over five years.

I would like to suggest that this be removed as both points (1. lack of data and 2. divergence from relativistic predictions) were disproved by the publishing of this paper in The Astrophysical Journal in 2010. Fnarrow 00:35, 8 April 2013 (EDT)

Force acting on a mass

The example, "The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass - does this act on the rest mass or the relativistic mass?" needs to be rephrased to be more clear. Are we talking about measuring the force applied to the object or mesuring the change in trajectory of the object? The force acts on the object, but the sentence is currently phrased as if there are two possible different answers. The force will cause the trajectory of the object to change, which can be measured in specified frames of reference.

A good example would be a particle accelerator, or synchrotron. A charge particle is traveling at speeds that approach the speed of light. A magnetic field is applied to the particle to keep it traveling in a circular path. As the speed of the particle increases, the force applied to the particle must increase to keep it in the track of the particle accelerator. The force is applied at a right angle to the velocity of the particle. The calculations to determine the force needed to hold the particle to a circular path are well-tested and verified. Thanks, Wschact 22:42, 8 April 2013 (EDT)

#47: Historical evidence suggests that the year used to have 360 days. However, Relativity cannot explain how the orbit or the rotation of Earth could have changed enough to give us the current 365.24-solar-day year.

To the best of my knowledge, this has no relevance toward proving nor disproving the General or Specific Theory of Relativity... However, very little of my physics training was in the field, so please correct me if I'm wrong. If there is no objection, I will be removing it after the mandated 24 hour waiting period. (unless the length of day suddenly changes again, I suppose it might be shorter/longer than 24 hours in that case) Fnarrow 13:18, 21 April 2013 (EDT)

According to liberals, General Relativity predicts all gravitational interactions. It follows that whenever a gravity-related prediction is incorrect, Relativity has been disproven, don't you agree? Somehow the length of the day or year has changed, even though Relativity says the orbit should be static. Would you also support removing the other gravity-based examples #2, #3, #4, #6, #7, #21, #41, #43, #44, #45? Of course not. Spielman 14:20, 21 April 2013 (EDT)

Honestly, yes I would... For reasons explained on Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity and through any number of scientific journals. Fnarrow 15:00, 21 April 2013 (EDT)

I agree with Fnarrow. I stumbled upon this page recently and thought it was a parody. I see that some of the stranger items have been removed. But #40 persists... what do tides have to do with relativity? And #39 pre-supposes that an object is traveling at the speed of light? These are parodies, right? AlexanderS 22:10, 23 April 2013 (EDT)

At least they finally got rid of the "Earthquakes in Ireland" example... I never could figure that one out. lol. But #4 still persists even thought it is easily explained by anyone who understands that it's surface is a plasma and not a solid as the citation presupposes. Anyway, I wouldn't go around agreeing with me too vocally, that's not a popular stance to take these days. Thanks for the support anyway though, Fnarrow 22:31, 23 April 2013 (EDT)

Protect this page

This page should be protected, as parodists seem to be attracted to editing it, and inserting their own information. brenden 13:47, 23 April 2013 (EDT)

I second the protection motion put forward by Brenden. As much as I 1. hate protected pages on a wiki which depends on "the best of the public" an 2. desperately want to personally replace this page with refutations of every example Aschlafly has made it clear that this page is one of the most popular on the wiki and that he stands by it. Therefore I think the following should happen:
  1. Revert to last known "approved" version, looks like that would be "20:44, 10 January 2013" in my opinion.
  2. Protected
  3. Move and expand the notice which currently appears at the bottom re: "future edits" and the Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity. to the top of the page.
  4. Allow only User:Aschlafly to change the article in the future when/if someone provides sufficient evidence on this talk page to convince him that their proposal warrants such display.
I will take care of numbers 1 and 3 after the mandatory 24 hour waiting period, I leave 2 and 4 up to someone with those powers. Thanks, Fnarrow 09:34, 24 April 2013 (EDT)

I concur with Brenden and Fnarrow. This is a highly technical subject, and while it reflects the best of the public, the constant back and forth consumes too much energy from the best of the public that could be devoted to other articles. The 20:44 10 Jan version seem appropriate to me. Thanks, Wschact 11:39, 24 April 2013 (EDT)

Are you sure that 10 January is the right target? That version includes the derided "earthquakes in Ireland" example, as well as a few other recently-purged items. AlexanderS 13:48, 24 April 2013 (EDT)
Watch out for the edits by the parodist Spielman, when selecting the revision. I haven't read the others yet, so I have no idea if they are also parody. brenden 14:05, 24 April 2013 (EDT)
Are those the ones Spielman listed in the above section (#2, #3, #4, #6, #7, #21, #41, #43, #44, #45)? Are those all parody edits? I tried contacting him (?) for clarification, but seems to be blocked. AlexanderS 14:30, 24 April 2013 (EDT)
He's a parodist, and his edits have never been in good faith. brenden 14:46, 24 April 2013 (EDT)

I'm open to any/all suggestions. 10 Jan may not be the "best possible date" but I chose it based upon the fact that it seems to align the most closely with both Aschlafly's most recent edit and the refutations offered on Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity. While I agree that some of the entries on that date seem to be either 1. parodies or 2. gross misunderstandings of what the Theory of Relativity actually is, I figured choosing the date which most closely matched those two criteria would require the least all around editing on both pages. As this is obviously a contentious topic, I just want to let everyone know that I won't be changing it myself, I'll leave that to someone higher on the food chain once a satisfactory agreement has been reached here. Thanks to everyone for participating in this discussion. Fnarrow 14:55, 24 April 2013 (EDT)

I also will wait, but in the meantime I have restored the two items deleted by AlexanderS. I would hope that Andy or someone who has spent more time than I have on the topic, will look at this page. A group of people have invested a lot of work on generating this list. If items are sourced, they should not be removed. If an item is a parody, then it should be removed because it will detract from CP's credibility. I have an open mind about this, but I also think that claims made on this page should be backed up by more detailed articles in CP. For example, the rotation of the Earth around the Sun should be covered in depth in the Earth article. If people disagree as to the relativistic effects on measuring the "year", we should give both sides of the controversy and let the reader decide. CP has at least four articles on relativity. We then summarize the "Counterexamples to Relativity" and also have a rebuttal essay. Anyone willing to read through all of that (even if the reader is a homeschooled high school student) will understand what to believe. I say lock at January 10, and then if someone wants to add or subtract from that, they can plead their case to Andy or some other Admin. Wschact 22:26, 25 April 2013 (EDT)

Set back to version of 1 December -- explanation

I have set the page back to the version of 18:45, 1 December 2012. This version was made by the site owner. To those who say that Spielman was a "parodist", I can say that his general edits on technical matters, including inductor, capacitor, semiconductor, laser, neutron, and the other relativity pages, have been sensible and responsible. I disagree with most of his edits to the counterexamples page, but I disagree with nearly everything on that page. To those who dislike the "warp-speed solenoid" example, I wish to point out that it was put in by the site owner at 22:57, 20 August 2011.

While I disagree with much of the content of the page, it should not be diluted by well-meaning editors. Here is why:

  • This was largely written by the site owner, and clearly represents his views. This is corroborated by his writings on other relativity pages elsewhere. While he did not personally put in Spielman's items, he has steadfastly defended many similar items on the list (Hulse-Taylor, Mercury precession, supraluminal neutrinos, gravitons, gravity waves, dark matter, black holes, the aether, action-at-a--distance) in talk page discussions here and on other relevant pages.
  • In addition to writing many (if not most) of the points on this page, Andy has had ample opportunity to remove material that he considers detrimental to Conservapedia's position on relativity. Most of Spielman's "parody" edits were made prior to Andy's last edit of 1 December 2012.
  • The "Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity" page adequately rebuts all of the points on the page. Andy accepts its existence—he has placed counter-rebuttals on it.
  • When users (AugustO, Wschact, et al.) have diluted other relativity pages, particularly the E=mc^2 page, Andy has been quick to revert.

Users (and that includes myself) who disagree with this page and the other relativity pages are simply going to have to accept that they will not be satisfied. They will just have to be satisfied with the "rebuttal" page, or will have to go elsewhere. We need to stop the bickering.

I see that Andy has brought us back to a set of 47 counterexamples. Could we please protect the page now? Thanks, Wschact 16:39, 27 April 2013 (EDT)
Why not welcome improvements? There have been many edits by others to this page that have strengthened it.--Andy Schlafly 16:42, 27 April 2013 (EDT)
In my view it is a cost/benefit calculation. I would rather have people spend their time developing substantive articles, including the articles about relativity. The "Counterexamples to Relativity" and "Essay:Rebuttal to Counterexamples to Relativity" pages are more of an "op-ed" feature instead of being an integral part of the encyclopedia. I don't have the time to delve into each tendered counter-example and rebuttal. So, I would advise locking the Counterexamples down, subject to anyone making a request to add an additional bona fide counter-example. This subject is too easy to parody. For example, someone reading the "Earthquakes in Ireland" bullet would be tempted to add bullets for "Earthquakes in X" (where X is any country that has had an earthquake.) We need stated criteria for inclusion of new bullets and then we should enforce the criteria. So, protecting the article would be the next logical step. Wschact 17:22, 27 April 2013 (EDT)
Improvements? In reward for some of those "improvements" Spielman received a five-year block from Brenden. Rightly so, in my opinion, but it doesn't seem like very consistent policy. (Sorry if this is off-topic, but it just struck me as odd.) AlexanderS 19:29, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

Inertia

Number 29 says, "Relativity requires different values for the inertia of a moving object: in its direction of motion, and perpendicular to that direction. This contradicts the logical principle that the laws of physics are the same in all directions." Does this person mean "inertial mass"? Thanks, Wschact 23:41, 25 April 2013 (EDT)

Good clarification. Edit mad as suggested. Thanks.--Andy Schlafly 12:13, 16 December 2014 (EST)

Parodist

The counterexamples number 47, 48, 49 and 50 were added by a parodist. Should they be removed?--JoeyJ 11:57, 16 December 2014 (EST)

Yes, those additions should be removed. Thanks!--Andy Schlafly 12:10, 16 December 2014 (EST)
Well, that's kind of embarrassing that such items would remain on the list for two years. And even now their removal is based not on logic, but on the identity of the contributor. Isn't it conceivable that the speed-of-light solenoid (now #46) is also parody? AlexanderS 15:05, 4 January 2015 (EST)
My apologies, the solenoid item was added by Mr. Schlafly himself. So, not parody. AlexanderS 16:59, 4 January 2015 (EST)
Wikis are open to the public, and some people make incorrect edits, sometimes buried deep in an entry far beyond where most people would look. The significance of such activity is zero, and eventually such little-noticed edits are reverted. The only way to prevent such edits would be to close the wiki to the public, which would then miss out on many valuable insights from the best of the public.--Andy Schlafly 20:54, 4 January 2015 (EST)

Action-at-a-distance according to the Bible

The action-at-a-distance by Jesus, described in John 4:46-54, Matthew 15:28, and Matthew 27:51.

That doesn't make any sense. Take e.g., John 4:46-54 - the question is: did the action take place instantaneously, or was it perhaps conveyed with the speed of light. But Cana and Capernaum are roughly 30km away from each other! Even today, we would have difficulties to make such measurements - as seen during the OPERA neutrino speed experiment of 2011.

How could the servants spot a difference of ca. 1/10.000 seconds? Answer: they couldn't

  • It's impossible to describe the breaking of a fever with such precision
  • Jesus said: "Go, your son lives" That takes considerably more time than 1/10.000s...
  • The fever left him at the seventh hour. Which one: Cana's or Capernaum's? Both differ by a couple of seconds, as all time-keeping was local!

Does the Bible claim that the healing was instantaneous? No, only that it took place roughly at the time Jesus spoke to the father. Jesus just tells him "Your son lives": it isn't said whether this is an observation of something which already had happened, a healing at this point of time, or a prophecy of an event in the future - all three possibilities are given (and impressive).

You have to twist the scripture towards your preferred interpretation if you wish to crowbar "action at a distance" into these verses. --AugustO 10:57, 19 March 2015 (EDT)

The Gospel passages are widely understood as describing action-at-a-distance. Also, please discuss first before repeatedly deleting something.--Andy Schlafly 12:28, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
Yes, Jesus acted over a distance - but instantaneously? That's your interpretation! If it is "widely understood" to happen instantaneously, you shouldn't have a problem to give some sources which corroborate this claim. I couldn't find any.
Furthermore: because of the technical problems which I described above, we cannot rely on eyewitnesses. Did Jesus Himself state that he has performed an action-at-a-distance, i.e., caused something in a distance without temporary delay? No, He didn't.
--AugustO 12:33, 19 March 2015 (EDT)

"Please discuss first before repeatedly deleting something": I'm happy to do so and I will present my arguments. Andy, I hope you will join the discussion!

I waited more than two days for the other site to engage in a meaningful discussion. It seems that we have reached an agreement. --AugustO 06:26, 22 March 2015 (EDT)

John 4:46-54

Jesus didn't claim that the healing took place instantaneously. Andy, do you think the nobleman and his servants were able to spot whether to events took place at the same time in Cana and Capernaum? If not, this example should be removed. --AugustO 14:22, 19 March 2015 (EDT)

The better translation is "Then the father realized that this was the same moment when Jesus said to him, "your son lives," so both he and his entire house believed." "Same moment" means simultaneously.--Andy Schlafly 16:47, 19 March 2015 (EDT)
"Then the father realized": how could the father judge that it happened "at the same moment", and not with a delay of 1/10,000 s? Answer: He couldn't - even if his son got better five minutes before he met Jesus, and Jesus just relayed this fact, or if the healing needed five minutes, and Jesus spoke about an event in the near future! For the father (and the Roman time-keeping abilities) it was enough that it happened in the same hour!
Everybody of a certain age knows what she or he did when Kennedy was shot. But does he really know what he did in the very moment the bullet struck the president? No, at best, he knows what he did when the transmission of the shot arrived. --AugustO 17:01, 19 March 2015 (EDT)

Matthew 15:28

καὶ ἰάθη ἡ θυγάτηρ αὐτῆς ἀπὸ τῆς ὥρας ἐκείνης. and her daughter was healed from the very hour We don't know where the daughter was. Though the mother could have left her in Cana, she could also be accompanying her! --AugustO 14:22, 19 March 2015 (EDT)

Matthew 27:51

Andy, you state: "The Greek "Καὶ ἰδού" in this context emphasizes the identical timing" - but we have a string of sentences joined by Καὶ: Καὶ ἰδοὺ τὸ καταπέτασμα τοῦ ναοῦ ἐσχίσθη ἀπ' ἄνωθεν ἕως κάτω εἰς δύο, Καὶ ἡ γῆ ἐσείσθη, Καὶ αἱ πέτραι ἐσχίσθησαν, Καὶ τὰ μνημεῖα ἀνεῴχθησαν Καὶ πολλὰ σώματα τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἁγίων ἠγέρθησαν, Καὶ ἐξελθόντες ἐκ τῶν μνημείων μετὰ τὴν ἔγερσιν αὐτοῦ εἰσῆλθον εἰς τὴν ἁγίαν πόλιν Καὶ ἐνεφανίσθησαν πολλοῖς. Obviously, not all of these events happened at the same time! And for the last four years, you haven't presented any scholarly source which would support your translation of idou! --AugustO 14:33, 19 March 2015 (EDT)

Widely Understood

Andy, the GPS is widely understood to take relativistic effects into account - and here, I can present examples ;-) --AugustO 12:49, 19 March 2015 (EDT)

The GPS adjustments are based on experimental observation, not contrived theoretical predictions by Relativity.--Andy Schlafly 10:30, 7 June 2015 (EDT)
Funny, how these experimental observations coincide with the theoretical predictions by relativity - one could see this as a confirmation of the theory.
But let's wait for Galileo - they are thinking about a different approach:
«Present navigation satellite systems, such as Galileo and GPS, employ Newtonian trigonometry to determine positions, using Earth stations as reference points. This approach would perform ideally if all the satellites and the receiver were at rest and far from Earth.»
«However, this is only correct as a first approximation – because of the level of precision needed by a GNSS, the distortions that Earth causes in nearby space and time (space-time curvature) and the effects of the relative motions between the satellites and the user (relativistic inertial effects) both have to be considered. These are accounted for by introducing relativistic corrections to the Newtonian theory. For a ground user, these corrections can be as large as 12 km after one day.»
«A simple way to avoid having to deal with the defects of Newtonian theory is to change the paradigm. Instead of modelling the system in a Newtonian framework and adding relativistic corrections, the positioning system could be modelled directly in general relativity. »
--AugustO 19:08, 7 June 2015 (EDT)
The "experimental observation" and "[contrived] theoretical predictions" happen to match. This should surprise no one, since relativity is correct. The GPS adjustments may be made by computers that are using observed ephemeris data from the satellites, but everyone involved knows that the basis for those adjustments (7 us/day up for SR; 45 us/day down for GR) is relativity. No one operating the GPS control stations will tell you that "We fudge the satellite clocks by 38 microseconds per day, but we don't know why this is needed." They knew that they would need the correction, based on relativity, before the satellites were launched; the correction mechanism was built in before launch. Very fine "tweaking" of the clocks is made by the control stations, but that's because of uncertainty of the satellites' orbits. The tweaking is not because relativity is wrong. See this article for an explanation of the 38 microsecond correction. SamHB 22:00, 7 June 2015 (EDT)

Andy, you are missing the point of this section

The GPS is widely understood to take relativistic effects into account - just google "GPS" "theory of relativity" and you get numerous links to universities, etc., most of which in favor of the statement. Nonetheless, this isn't good enough for you: predictably, you are ignoring all these voices, and just state that "The GPS adjustments are based on experimental observation, not contrived theoretical predictions by Relativity". I get it: "widely understood" isn't a yardstick for credibility.

Or is it? A little earlier, your only answer to

The action-at-a-distance by Jesus, described in John 4:46-54, Matthew 15:28, and Matthew 27:51.

That doesn't make any sense. Take e.g., John 4:46-54 - the question is: did the action take place instantaneously, or was it perhaps conveyed with the speed of light. But Cana and Capernaum are roughly 30km away from each other! Even today, we would have difficulties to make such measurements - as seen during the OPERA neutrino speed experiment of 2011.

How could the servants spot a difference of ca. 1/10.000 seconds? Answer: they couldn't

  • It's impossible to describe the breaking of a fever with such precision
  • Jesus said: "Go, your son lives" That takes considerably more time than 1/10.000s...
  • The fever left him at the seventh hour. Which one: Cana's or Capernaum's? Both differ by a couple of seconds, as all time-keeping was local!

Does the Bible claim that the healing was instantaneous? No, only that it took place roughly at the time Jesus spoke to the father. Jesus just tells him "Your son lives": it isn't said whether this is an observation of something which already had happened, a healing at this point of time, or a prophecy of an event in the future - all three possibilities are given (and impressive).

You have to twist the scripture towards your preferred interpretation if you wish to crowbar "action at a distance" into these verses. --AugustO 10:57, 19 March 2015 (EDT)|}

was

The Gospel passages are widely understood as describing action-at-a-distance. Also, please discuss first before repeatedly deleting something.--Andy Schlafly 12:28, 19 March 2015 (EDT)

That was your whole argument! Sweet (predictable) irony! --AugustO 19:45, 8 June 2015 (EDT)

BTW: if you google "action-at-a-distance" "Matthew 15:28", virtually all results are connected with Conservapedia! So, at best, this passage is widely understood only by you as describing action-at-a-distance... --AugustO 19:45, 8 June 2015 (EDT)

Relativity Conflicts with Bible

The Bible describes action at a distance. Relativity falsely denies it.--Andy Schlafly 10:34, 7 June 2015 (EDT)

Andy, on March 19, 2015 you wrote: "please discuss first before repeatedly deleting something". Therefore, I laid out my argument at #Action-at-a-distance_according_to_the_Bible. I waited for two days, but you didn't address my points. Thus, I thought that you had conceded this point, and I deleted it from the list.
Now, I'd say it is your turn to discuss first before repeatedly adding something! Merely repeating your point of view isn't a discussion! So, please address my points above. For your convenience, a short summary:
  • Jesus never said that he made something happen instantaneously over a distance
  • The witnesses at that time couldn't know whether something happened instantaneously or with a delay.
--AugustO 14:39, 7 June 2015 (EDT)
BTW: take a look at Talk:Action at a distance#Biblical Example --AugustO 19:09, 7 June 2015 (EDT)

I don't understand the connection between this and moral relativity. Could someone please explain?

My understanding of the link is that they both simply pertain to the general notion of relativity, simply put, which can be applied in a way that allows the observer to see a steep slippery slope, if one accepts the notion that all things are relative. --Hacnocteestlucet (talk) 21:04, 5 December 2015 (EST)

Einstein’s Relativity and Relativism: Why Einstein’s theory of relativity is actually a powerful argument for absolute truth.

Please read the article Einstein’s Relativity and Relativism: Why Einstein’s theory of relativity is actually a powerful argument for absolute truth. Conservative (talk) 13:55, 11 February 2016 (EST)

Please unlock this page. I wish to add a picture to the article. Timematter (talk) 21:34, 4 May 2016 (EDT)

The action-at-a-distance by Jesus, described in John 4:46-54, Matthew 15:28, and Matthew 27:51.

Let us make a thought experiment: imagine a glass fiber cable between Cana and Capernaum (some 90km). In Cana, the master switches on a light, in Capernaum, this is observed via cable by his servant. The servant than rides to Cana to discuss with his master whether he saw the light in the same instance it was switched on - or 1/10,000 second later.

What is the result when both are equipped with the best sun-dials available?

Hilarity!

--AugustO (talk) 03:54, 10 April 2017 (EDT)

Consider removing point #1

Consider removing #1, because the sources it cites (which are the National Geographic and the Scientific American) are not scientific peer-reviewed journals, and cannot be considered as actual scientific evidence. Neither of these actually cite an Also, specifically concerning the Scientific American, it does not actually state a specific computer model that has run on some computer. I had to do some digging around, but I found this article which I think is what these articles are referring to. Anyway, even if this is so, this is not a valid counterexample to the Theory of Relativity because a computer model or simulation cannot necessarily falsify what is in the real world. For example, if this simulation is in any way not 100% accurate to real life, then it is not necessarily a truly accurate representation of reality. Furthermore, this could be due to the fact that according to the aforementioned article, the simulation was conducted at a limited resolution of cosmic data, and thus, does not simulate small particles such as atoms and small molecules.

The article itself (or rather, what is under the "Abstract" section of the article) even states: "It yields a reasonable population of ellipticals and spirals, reproduces the observed distribution of galaxies in clusters and characteristics of hydrogen on large scales, and at the same time matches the ‘metal’ and hydrogen content of galaxies on small scales."

This means that Chaos theory (a branch of mathematics which concerns outcomes being highly sensitive to initial conditions) could explain that due to a lack of atomic simulation of this model, it necessarily means that an exact replica of our universe is not contained within that computer simulation due to it not simulating our universe exactly how it is in the real world. Therefore, this model's density of black holes per whatever unit of measure is not sufficient evidence as a counterexample of the Theory of Relativity by Einstein because that computer simulation is not more accurate than Einstein's calculations based on Relativity.

Not only that, but I fail to see where it is mentioned in the article the popularity of black holes or a citation of Einstein's calculations for it as well. So the argument does not even have substantiation either.