Difference between revisions of "Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity"

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(Relativity breaks down if a solenoid is traveling at or near the speed of light.: new section)
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This entire page is ludicrous.  If you don't believe in Einstein's relativity, then do you believe in Galilean relativity?  If Einstein's relativity is correct up to small corrections, does it invalidate cultural relativism?  Ironically, this page signifies to me that Conservapedia itself is an exercise in relative truth; the idea that individuals are entitled to make up whatever facts are consistent with their preconceptions.  [[User:Aram|Aram]] 16:26, 1 January 2012 (EST)
 
This entire page is ludicrous.  If you don't believe in Einstein's relativity, then do you believe in Galilean relativity?  If Einstein's relativity is correct up to small corrections, does it invalidate cultural relativism?  Ironically, this page signifies to me that Conservapedia itself is an exercise in relative truth; the idea that individuals are entitled to make up whatever facts are consistent with their preconceptions.  [[User:Aram|Aram]] 16:26, 1 January 2012 (EST)
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== Relativity breaks down if a [[solenoid]] is traveling at or near the speed of light. ==
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As a source for the statement [http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3244279 this discussion] on physicsforum.org is given. Here are all the contributions to this discussion:
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{|
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!A Dhingra
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|The moment the magnetic field is generated, it should take some time to reach some distance. It cannot reach infinity instantly, it should have some speed, and that speed cannot be more than that of light. So let’s say that the newly generated magnetic field, through a current carrying wire, travels with the speed of light. Now for the application of the faraday’s law, let’s bring a magnet near a solenoid, through which initially no current flows, and make the magnet move with the speed of light. Will there be electromagnetic induction observed in this case?
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 +
Take another case, when instead of a magnet we have a different circuit containing a solenoid through which current flows when the switch is made on, and this circuit is held stationary moving the other one with the speed of light. Will there be electromagnetic induction observed in this case? What I think is that, as the system without current is moving as fast as the magnetic field … it never gets the chance to cut the magnetic field and cause induction to occur in the solenoid. So there should be no induction. But there is relative motion between the two systems and (also there is NO time varying magnetic field through the moving solenoid,)AND no induced current will be produced ...
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so will the induction take place or not...??
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if induction does not take place then the principle or relativity goes wrong......
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|-
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!DaleSpam
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|You cannot make a magnet move with the speed of light. It is a physically impossible premise, so you shouldn't be surprised that assuming it leads to contradictions.
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|-
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!A Dhingra
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|... can't it be just a thought experiment like many other paradoxes available....
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with that assumption, think about the result.......
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|-
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!DaleSpam
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|Obviously, if you violate the principle of relativity in your question then the answer must be that the principle of relativity is violated. It is just the most basic logic. Non-physical assumptions lead to non-physical conclusions. This says nothing whatsoever about physics, only about your question.
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|-
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!A Dhingra
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|ok........
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i agree that the situation is not realistic........
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but still i didn't like the fact that one should not think beyond the laws made by humans himself.......
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|-
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!DaleSpam
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|This is elementary logic. If you have any set of axioms (A) which logically imply some result (B) then if your premise is not(B) then you must logically conclude not(A). This is called transposition and is one of the fundamental rules of logic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposition_(logic)
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SR logically implies that a solenoid must move slower than light (STL), therefore if you assume that a solenoid can move with the speed of light you must logically conclude that special relativity (SR) is violated. Written in the usual format for logic:
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(SR → STL) ↔ (~STL → ~SR)
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Whether or not the situation is realistic and whether or not SR is a "law made by humans himself" is actually only a secondary concern. This is primarily an exercise in basic logic. Note that I am agreeing with your OP. Under the stated premise (~STL) you must indeed logically conclude that "the principle of relativity goes wrong" (~SR).
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|-
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!vector22
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|to make the experiment fair you would have to calculate what would happen to the solenoid at half light speed and then go from there.
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|-
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!netheril96
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|If you want to think beyond relativity, invent your own laws of physics. If you want to explain in terms of relativity, then think within relativity.
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|-
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!A Dhingra
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|can you help me go about finding this result......
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(considering the magnetic field to be varying with time ...... as it is getting produced ...
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|}
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How does this discussion support the claim? This source seems to be unsuitable and therefore it should be deleted, and the statement marked again to be unsourced.
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[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] 02:00, 2 January 2012 (EST)

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Notice of Pending Revision

It's been over a week now since the reversion (on 9th December) of several edits I made. Despite my request, now explanation has been posted, in contrast to the explanations I gave for each of my changes. I therefore see it only fit to return the article to the state I left it in.

However, to avoid 'edit wars' I think it only fair to give notification of this, to allow a final chance for justification of the reversion.

The specific changes are:

  • Removal of the item: '27. Relativity requires different values for the inertia of a moving object: in its direction of motion, and perpendicular to that direction. This contradicts the logical principle that the laws of physics are the same in all directions.' since it is a duplicate of '10. The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass -- does this act on the rest mass or the relativistic mass?'
  • Removal of '26. The lack of useful devices developed based on any insights provided by the theory; no lives have been saved or helped, and the theory has not led to other useful theories and may have interfered with scientific progress. This stands in stark contrast with every verified theory of science.' After much discussion on this page, it seems generally agreed that there useful devices in existence. (I appreciate that some mention of GPS may be necessary, but a footnote, however valid, cannot justify the presence of the invalid section in the main article to which it is attached. GPS can have it's own separate entry on this page as a counterexample, if need be.)

AugustO 10:35, 31 December 2011 (EST)

  • Removal of '30. The Ehrenfest Paradox ...', '31. The Twin Paradox ...' and '10. The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle...' since these are paradoxes and (as discussed above) are not appropriate to a page of counterexamples. These entries have already been moved to and expanded upon in the main Relativity page.

--QPR 10:26, 17 December 2011 (EST)

I've now implemented these changes since no objection has been forthcoming to my explaination above, posted in accordance with editting etiquette. If there are any objections please discuss them here rather than engaging in revert wars. --QPR 13:36, 30 December 2011 (EST)
Sorry, just noticing these comments now. Let's discuss before removing insights from entries.
Items 27 and 10 are similar, but not identical. 27 highlights a conflict between Relativity and basic principles of physics; item 10 emphasizes an internal contradiction in the theory that remains unanswered.
Item 26 remains unrebutted. Relativity has produced nothing of value.
Item 30 and 31 are logical problems which are valid counterexamples, given that Relativity claims to be based on logic.--Andy Schlafly 22:58, 30 December 2011 (EST)

Items 10, 27, and 31 should be taken out because they are just wrong, and make Conservapedia look lazy. Anyone who has learned about relativity from any college-level textbook less than about 40 or 50 years old knows how to do the calculations involving relativistic velocity, momentum, force, and acceleration. Our readers know this, and items 10 and 27 will just leave them scratching their heads about the diligence of Conservapedia. Item 31, the "twin paradox", is also very well known. The fact that something has the word "paradox" in its name doesn't mean that the subject is flawed. Otherwise, we would have to take the Russel paradox too seriously, and perhaps conclude that this: "The next sentence is false. The preceding sentence is true" means that the universe will blow up. The phrase "twin paradox" is simply a name. Everyone knows what is going on. Even Einstein. If it were actually a counterexample, this fact would be well known by now.JudyJ 10:11, 31 December 2011 (EST)

  • 10: The logical problem of a force which is applied at a right angle to the velocity of a relativistic mass - does this act on the rest mass or the relativistic mass? It applies to the relativistic mass: that is observable in a cyclotron. So, it is one of those question you may speculate or philosophy all day long, but do the experiment (and the mass), and it is answered.
  • 27: Relativity requires different values for the inertia of a moving object: in its direction of motion, and perpendicular to that direction. This contradicts the logical principle that the laws of physics are the same in all directions. In light of the above, this seems to be wrong.
  • 30: The Ehrenfest Paradox interesting paradox, solvable and no counterexample
  • 31: The Twin Paradox no counterexample to relativity, it's solved in any physic's course on this subject
  • 26: The lack of useful devices developed based on any insights provided by the theory please re-read the archives, they include plenty material on the GPS (though you seem to ignore it)

AugustO 10:36, 31 December 2011 (EST)

On the points 10 and 27 issue, whilst they may or may not be duplicates, may or may not be counterexamples, they're still just plain wrong, reflecting a fundamental misunderstanding of the basics of relativity. According to Special Relativity, the inertial mass of a body appears the same to all observers who are in the same inertial frame of reference (i.e. who are moving at the same velocity as each other, which may be different from that of the body being observed). If a force is applied to the body it will produce an acceleration of the same magnitude (though obviously in a different direction) regardless of the direction of the force. The force itself can in no sense be an 'observer' since it has no velocity. For observers in a different non-inertial frame, they will observe a different magnitude of acceleration, but it will still be the same regardless of the direction of the force. --QPR 12:27, 31 December 2011 (EST)

I deleted #10 and #27. AugustO 11:06, 1 January 2012 (EST)

Andy, you've reverted an edit that everyone involved in the discussion other than yourself seems to be agreed upon. Can you please at least attempt to justify your position? --QPR 13:20, 1 January 2012 (EST)

deletion of educational information is disfavored on this site; deletions restored How can the perpetuation of false information be educational? AugustO 15:37, 1 January 2012 (EST)

This entire page is ludicrous. If you don't believe in Einstein's relativity, then do you believe in Galilean relativity? If Einstein's relativity is correct up to small corrections, does it invalidate cultural relativism? Ironically, this page signifies to me that Conservapedia itself is an exercise in relative truth; the idea that individuals are entitled to make up whatever facts are consistent with their preconceptions. Aram 16:26, 1 January 2012 (EST)

Relativity breaks down if a solenoid is traveling at or near the speed of light.

As a source for the statement this discussion on physicsforum.org is given. Here are all the contributions to this discussion:

A Dhingra The moment the magnetic field is generated, it should take some time to reach some distance. It cannot reach infinity instantly, it should have some speed, and that speed cannot be more than that of light. So let’s say that the newly generated magnetic field, through a current carrying wire, travels with the speed of light. Now for the application of the faraday’s law, let’s bring a magnet near a solenoid, through which initially no current flows, and make the magnet move with the speed of light. Will there be electromagnetic induction observed in this case?

Take another case, when instead of a magnet we have a different circuit containing a solenoid through which current flows when the switch is made on, and this circuit is held stationary moving the other one with the speed of light. Will there be electromagnetic induction observed in this case? What I think is that, as the system without current is moving as fast as the magnetic field … it never gets the chance to cut the magnetic field and cause induction to occur in the solenoid. So there should be no induction. But there is relative motion between the two systems and (also there is NO time varying magnetic field through the moving solenoid,)AND no induced current will be produced ... so will the induction take place or not...?? if induction does not take place then the principle or relativity goes wrong......

DaleSpam You cannot make a magnet move with the speed of light. It is a physically impossible premise, so you shouldn't be surprised that assuming it leads to contradictions.
A Dhingra ... can't it be just a thought experiment like many other paradoxes available....

with that assumption, think about the result.......

DaleSpam Obviously, if you violate the principle of relativity in your question then the answer must be that the principle of relativity is violated. It is just the most basic logic. Non-physical assumptions lead to non-physical conclusions. This says nothing whatsoever about physics, only about your question.
A Dhingra ok........

i agree that the situation is not realistic........ but still i didn't like the fact that one should not think beyond the laws made by humans himself.......

DaleSpam This is elementary logic. If you have any set of axioms (A) which logically imply some result (B) then if your premise is not(B) then you must logically conclude not(A). This is called transposition and is one of the fundamental rules of logic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposition_(logic)

SR logically implies that a solenoid must move slower than light (STL), therefore if you assume that a solenoid can move with the speed of light you must logically conclude that special relativity (SR) is violated. Written in the usual format for logic: (SR → STL) ↔ (~STL → ~SR)

Whether or not the situation is realistic and whether or not SR is a "law made by humans himself" is actually only a secondary concern. This is primarily an exercise in basic logic. Note that I am agreeing with your OP. Under the stated premise (~STL) you must indeed logically conclude that "the principle of relativity goes wrong" (~SR).

vector22 to make the experiment fair you would have to calculate what would happen to the solenoid at half light speed and then go from there.
netheril96 If you want to think beyond relativity, invent your own laws of physics. If you want to explain in terms of relativity, then think within relativity.
A Dhingra can you help me go about finding this result......

(considering the magnetic field to be varying with time ...... as it is getting produced ...

How does this discussion support the claim? This source seems to be unsuitable and therefore it should be deleted, and the statement marked again to be unsourced.

AugustO 02:00, 2 January 2012 (EST)