Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity

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Reversion explained

Paul Johnson, the renowned historian, explains the link -- and the significance of the link -- between relativity and moral relativism.--Andy Schlafly 20:57, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

Do you have a link for that? It seems pretty flimsy to me. --JMairs 21:10, 21 August 2011 (EDT)
Ah right, I found some stuff! It appears that Johnson acknowledged that there was no ACTUAL link between the two, but pointed out how many liberals CLAIM a link. That seems pretty close to what the article is saying, so my edit probably wasn't the best idea I've ever had, and as a bonus I've learned something interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain rather than just blocking me :-S --JMairs 21:17, 21 August 2011 (EDT)
Have you read Tribe's article applying the curvature of space to support liberal views?--Andy Schlafly 21:19, 21 August 2011 (EDT)
No, I haven't. Is it easy to find? --JMairs 21:21, 21 August 2011 (EDT)
You can find it here [1] or a pdf here [2][3]. On a college campus, you might be able to get it here.[4] RSchlafly 00:04, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Relativity and Electromagnetism

It is often claimed that Relativity is proven by its ability to explain aspects of electromagnetism. But those aspects do not relate to physical mass, gravity or various frames of reference throughout the universe -- the basic claims of relativity.--Andy Schlafly 20:59, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

Lorentz used electromagnetic relativity to predict relativistic mass in 1899, and it was experimentally confirmed a couple of years later. Poincare used E=mc2 for radiation in 1900. So I think that electromagnetic aspects of relativity do relate to physical mass. They also relate to various frames of reference, as electromagnetic experiments were done at different times of the year to test different frames of reference in the Earth's orbit. Gravity and electromagnetism are separate forces, and I guess it is fair to say that relativistic aspects had to be tested separately. RSchlafly 00:04, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Most of the counterexamples to Relativity relate to gravity; some relate to the claim that all (non-accelerating) frames of reference are the same everywhere in the universe. The essence of Relativity is its claims about gravity and space. Electromagnetism experiments have nothing to do with this, and do not confirm any of these "grand unified" assertions of Relativity.--Andy Schlafly 00:12, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
You have to distinguish between general relativity, which is about gravity, and special relativity, which isn't.
Anyway, Newtonian mechanics is not consistent with Maxwell's equations while relativity (both special and general) is. Do you deny Maxwell's equations, Aschlafly? If you accept Newtonian mechanics, you have to. --MatthewQ 00:24, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Also, it should be noted that Einstein's famous 1905 paper (which was very important in the history of relativity) is entitled On The Electrodynamics Of Moving Bodies. --MatthewQ 00:30, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Again, a big part of the objection to Relativity is its "grand unified" approach. The insistence on that view is simply not scientific, and is contrary to the data.
There are different forces in nature. There really are, and they really are different. That's what the data show.
Special relativity is about velocities less than the speed of light. None of that exists in electromagnetism.--Andy Schlafly 00:32, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Special relativity is about velocities less than the speed of light -> No. Light travels the speed of light in special relativity. Any massless particle does as well.
None of that exists in electromagnetism -> A charged particle with a velocity less than the speed of light definitely falls under the domain of electromagnetism.
Again, Maxwell's equations and Newtonian mechanics are inconsistent. You can't have both. The fact that other forces exist is irrelevant. --MatthewQ 00:56, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Special relativity makes no predictions, and only assumptions, about the speed of light. Instead, special relativity is about velocities less than the speed of light.
When the claim is made that Relativity explains electromagnetism, the claim is not referring to charged particles traveling less then the speed of light.
Your statement that Maxwell's equations and Newtownian mechanics are somehow inconsistent needs explanation. They describe completely different forces.--Andy Schlafly 13:45, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Special relativity predicts the speed of light is the same regardless of orientation of the observer, which is consistent with the Michelson–Morley experiment. It also predicts that the speed of light is independent of the velocity of the observer, which is consistent with the Kennedy–Thorndike experiment.
You said velocities less than the speed of light not exist in electromagnetism. This was clearly false.
I already mentioned that Maxwell's equations were not invariant under Galilean transformation, yet are under Lorentz transformations. This is very well known. If you want the exact details see On the Galilean non-invariance of classical electromagnetism and Understanding Physics, Invariance of electromagnetism under Lorentz transformation. --MatthewQ 15:47, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Special relativity says that the speed of light is constant. Maxwell's theory says that same thing, as does the Michelson-Morley experiment. It can be said to be an assumption or a prediction, depending on what textbook you are reading. At any rate, it is testable, and has been confirmed in many ways (for light in a vacuum). It was tested in outer space before testing on Earth. Relativity certainly also makes predictions about charged particles traveling less then the speed of light. The biggest prediction is the formula known as the Lorentz force law. This was an important part of relativity as decribed by Lorentz, Poincare, and Einstein. The Lorentz force law used to be considered part of Maxwell's equations. RSchlafly 15:49, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
These are interesting mathematical observations, having aesthetic value. They can suggest the existence of an intelligent designer.
But the physical significance of these mathematical observations is scant or non-existence. Electromagnetism does not involve particles moving close to the speed of light, and claims made by special relativity with respect to such motion are not verified by electromagnetism. Claims made by general relativity are not verified at all by electromagnetism.
I'm not aware of any experiment using electromagnetism that disproves Newtonian mechanics. I'm not saying that Newtonian mechanics must be correct, but some criticisms of it do not withstand scrutiny.--Andy Schlafly 17:29, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Yes, electromagnetism does involve particles moving close enough to the speed of light for relativistic effects to be important. Examples include the electron gun in an ordinary CRT TV set, electric motors, speakers, and just about any electronic device. These are not new. The earliest non-optical tests of special relativity were the Kaufmann–Bucherer–Neumann experiments.[5] They started in 1901 based on Lorentz's relativity, and pre-date Einstein. They show that mass increases with velocity so that nothing goes faster than light. In Newtonian mechanics, the speed of light is not an obstacle. RSchlafly 18:13, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
"Electromagnetism does not involve particles moving close to the speed of light." -> Particle accelerator use electromagnetic fields to move particles close to the speed of light.
"I'm not aware of any experiment using electromagnetism that disproves Newtonian mechanics." -> The observed constancy of speed of the speed of light (an electromagnet wave) does. --MatthewQ 18:16, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
I have an open mind about this, and would like to learn more. I wasn't familiar with the Kaufmann-Bucherer-Neumann experiments but didn't get much out of the Wikipedia description of them in the above link. Is there a clearer, more objective explanation that doesn't end with a sweeping, unsupported claim of proof of Relativity?
The two most prominent claims of proof of Relativity -- the perihelion advance of Mercury and the binary pulsar -- are now counterexamples and the most precise data are not being made available to the public. So something isn't adding up in favor of Relativity.
The lack of scientific basis for Relativity leaves it defenseless against another unscientific theory: string theory. Before long it may become important to list counterexamples to string theory.--Andy Schlafly 22:47, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Standard kilogrammes?

I'm not sure how good an argument this is. ONE out of a batch of 40 identical standard kilogrammes has diverged in weight from the others. Common sense says that there's something wrong with that one weight, which is after all stored in France. It's not likely that the answer has anything to do with relativity, which if correct would have caused an identical change in mass in all 40. --JMairs 21:06, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

I have a drawer full of socks. I cannot find a match for one of them. Can I blame relativity? RSchlafly 00:04, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Is it a French sock? --JMairs 08:14, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
Maybe so. Or from some other country where "kilogram" is spelled "kilogramme". RSchlafly 12:51, 22 August 2011 (EDT)
That would be everywhere except the USA. I'm English. --JMairs 21:24, 22 August 2011 (EDT)