Talk:Counterexamples to Relativity

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FTL Neutrinos at LHC

It may be jumping the gun to put the finding from Friday as evidence against GR. The results have yet to be duplicated - duplicability is needed for a claim to have scientific merit - and have yet to be carefully peer reviewed. The results are significant at the 95% CI but that means there's a 1 in 20 chance they're actually inaccurate. Given how many measurements are made at the LHC some are going to be both statistically significant and incorrect. It may be more prudent to wait to see if it's a one off or measurement error. I propose waiting at least until other particle acceleration labs can attempt to duplicate the results to make any judgement; after all, that's what CERN is doing --BillyWest 00:18, 26 September 2011 (EDT)

I disagree. The opposition to the results from CERN -- which confirm prior results from another laboratory which were not as precise -- is unreasonable. It's not necessary to continue to pretend that Relativity is true when there is so much evidence against it.--Andy Schlafly 00:35, 26 September 2011 (EDT)

CERN itself hasn't even confirmed the results. The data was published a lot quicker than data usually is because if it is accurate, then it changes the majority of physics laws discovered in the past century. The theory of relativity is not the only theory/law which involves the speed of light, electromagnetism does as well. Because of this, CERN wanted other scientists to try and find a flaw in the experiment quickly so that if there is a flaw, it is found quickly, and if there isn't, then scientists can begin determining what needs to change in order to accomodate this. Once the data has been properly analysed, without prematurely jumping to conclusions, then it would be fair to say that the neutrinos traveled faster than the speed of light. But something to keep in mind: this is not the first experiment done with neutrinos, all of the prior ones having travelled slower than the speed of light. If you do an experiment 500 times, and each results has a 1/1000 chance of being inaccurate, there is a 40% chance that at least one result will be inaccurate. If they find an error in the experiment (such as a piece of the measuring equipment being broken, or poor calibration of equipment, or leftover neutrinos from previous experiments, or any other impacting error), then wouldn't it make conservapedia look silly for jumping to a conclusion too quickly? - JamesCA 00:49, 27 September 2011 (EDT)

The CERN experiment is not the only one suggesting faster-than-c travel. Moreover, there is no basis for doubting the news that something travels faster than c. Most of the objections in the media are based in an irrational clinging to Relativity. Hence the counterexample is being restored ....--Andy Schlafly 20:49, 27 September 2011 (EDT)

Reversion explained

Paul Johnson, the renowned historian, explains the link -- and the significance of the link -- between relativity and moral relativism.--Andy Schlafly 20:57, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

Do you have a link for that? It seems pretty flimsy to me. --JMairs 21:10, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

Ah right, I found some stuff! It appears that Johnson acknowledged that there was no ACTUAL link between the two, but pointed out how many liberals CLAIM a link. That seems pretty close to what the article is saying, so my edit probably wasn't the best idea I've ever had, and as a bonus I've learned something interesting. Thanks for taking the time to explain rather than just blocking me :-S --JMairs 21:17, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

Have you read Tribe's article applying the curvature of space to support liberal views?--Andy Schlafly 21:19, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

No, I haven't. Is it easy to find? --JMairs 21:21, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

You can find it here [1] or a pdf here [2][3]. On a college campus, you might be able to get it here.[4] RSchlafly 00:04, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Relativity and Electromagnetism

It is often claimed that Relativity is proven by its ability to explain aspects of electromagnetism. But those aspects do not relate to physical mass, gravity or various frames of reference throughout the universe -- the basic claims of relativity.--Andy Schlafly 20:59, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

Lorentz used electromagnetic relativity to predict relativistic mass in 1899, and it was experimentally confirmed a couple of years later. Poincare used E=mc2 for radiation in 1900. So I think that electromagnetic aspects of relativity do relate to physical mass. They also relate to various frames of reference, as electromagnetic experiments were done at different times of the year to test different frames of reference in the Earth's orbit. Gravity and electromagnetism are separate forces, and I guess it is fair to say that relativistic aspects had to be tested separately. RSchlafly 00:04, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Most of the counterexamples to Relativity relate to gravity; some relate to the claim that all (non-accelerating) frames of reference are the same everywhere in the universe. The essence of Relativity is its claims about gravity and space. Electromagnetism experiments have nothing to do with this, and do not confirm any of these "grand unified" assertions of Relativity.--Andy Schlafly 00:12, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

You have to distinguish between general relativity, which is about gravity, and special relativity, which isn't.

Anyway, Newtonian mechanics is not consistent with Maxwell's equations while relativity (both special and general) is. Do you deny Maxwell's equations, Aschlafly? If you accept Newtonian mechanics, you have to. --MatthewQ 00:24, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Also, it should be noted that Einstein's famous 1905 paper (which was very important in the history of relativity) is entitled On The Electrodynamics Of Moving Bodies. --MatthewQ 00:30, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Again, a big part of the objection to Relativity is its "grand unified" approach. The insistence on that view is simply not scientific, and is contrary to the data.

There are different forces in nature. There really are, and they really are different. That's what the data show.

Special relativity is about velocities less than the speed of light. None of that exists in electromagnetism.--Andy Schlafly 00:32, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Special relativity is about velocities less than the speed of light -> No. Light travels the speed of light in special relativity. Any massless particle does as well.

None of that exists in electromagnetism -> A charged particle with a velocity less than the speed of light definitely falls under the domain of electromagnetism.

Again, Maxwell's equations and Newtonian mechanics are inconsistent. You can't have both. The fact that other forces exist is irrelevant. --MatthewQ 00:56, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Special relativity makes no predictions, and only assumptions, about the speed of light. Instead, special relativity is about velocities less than the speed of light.

When the claim is made that Relativity explains electromagnetism, the claim is not referring to charged particles traveling less then the speed of light.

Your statement that Maxwell's equations and Newtownian mechanics are somehow inconsistent needs explanation. They describe completely different forces.--Andy Schlafly 13:45, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Special relativity predicts the speed of light is the same regardless of orientation of the observer, which is consistent with the Michelson–Morley experiment. It also predicts that the speed of light is independent of the velocity of the observer, which is consistent with the Kennedy–Thorndike experiment.

You said velocities less than the speed of light not exist in electromagnetism. This was clearly false.

I already mentioned that Maxwell's equations were not invariant under Galilean transformation, yet are under Lorentz transformations. This is very well known. If you want the exact details see On the Galilean non-invariance of classical electromagnetism and Understanding Physics, Invariance of electromagnetism under Lorentz transformation. --MatthewQ 15:47, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Special relativity says that the speed of light is constant. Maxwell's theory says that same thing, as does the Michelson-Morley experiment. It can be said to be an assumption or a prediction, depending on what textbook you are reading. At any rate, it is testable, and has been confirmed in many ways (for light in a vacuum). It was tested in outer space before testing on Earth. Relativity certainly also makes predictions about charged particles traveling less then the speed of light. The biggest prediction is the formula known as the Lorentz force law. This was an important part of relativity as decribed by Lorentz, Poincare, and Einstein. The Lorentz force law used to be considered part of Maxwell's equations. RSchlafly 15:49, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

These are interesting mathematical observations, having aesthetic value. They can suggest the existence of an intelligent designer.

But the physical significance of these mathematical observations is scant or non-existence. Electromagnetism does not involve particles moving close to the speed of light, and claims made by special relativity with respect to such motion are not verified by electromagnetism. Claims made by general relativity are not verified at all by electromagnetism.

I'm not aware of any experiment using electromagnetism that disproves Newtonian mechanics. I'm not saying that Newtonian mechanics must be correct, but some criticisms of it do not withstand scrutiny.--Andy Schlafly 17:29, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Yes, electromagnetism does involve particles moving close enough to the speed of light for relativistic effects to be important. Examples include the electron gun in an ordinary CRT TV set, electric motors, speakers, and just about any electronic device. These are not new. The earliest non-optical tests of special relativity were the Kaufmann–Bucherer–Neumann experiments.[5] They started in 1901 based on Lorentz's relativity, and pre-date Einstein. They show that mass increases with velocity so that nothing goes faster than light. In Newtonian mechanics, the speed of light is not an obstacle. RSchlafly 18:13, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

"Electromagnetism does not involve particles moving close to the speed of light." -> Particle accelerator use electromagnetic fields to move particles close to the speed of light.

"I'm not aware of any experiment using electromagnetism that disproves Newtonian mechanics." -> The observed constancy of speed of the speed of light (an electromagnet wave) does. --MatthewQ 18:16, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

I have an open mind about this, and would like to learn more. I wasn't familiar with the Kaufmann-Bucherer-Neumann experiments but didn't get much out of the Wikipedia description of them in the above link. Is there a clearer, more objective explanation that doesn't end with a sweeping, unsupported claim of proof of Relativity?

The two most prominent claims of proof of Relativity -- the perihelion advance of Mercury and the binary pulsar -- are now counterexamples and the most precise data are not being made available to the public. So something isn't adding up in favor of Relativity.

The lack of scientific basis for Relativity leaves it defenseless against another unscientific theory: string theory. Before long it may become important to list counterexamples to string theory.--Andy Schlafly 22:47, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Can I start counterexamples to string theory now? Its a good excuse for me to learn! MaxFletcher 22:57, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Please do! Also, Max, did you see the answer to your question about how Relativity is used by liberals to advance their belief system? I can repost the links if you didn't see them.--Andy Schlafly 22:59, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Great, I'll look into String Theory (I don't know much about it) and get on to writing something. Having a project to work on is a great incentive to learn new topics. please do post those links, thanks!

I see the links are posted just above this subheading, under "You can find it here"--Andy Schlafly 23:39, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Ah yes, now I see. I'll read those tonight. Thanks! MaxFletcher 23:46, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

The Mercury and binary pulsar observations were used to support the gravity theory, and relativity remains the most accurate explanation. Andy, you asked about electromagnetism, not gravity. There is no way to understand electromagnetism without relativity, as far as I know. The Kaufmann experiments were supposed to disprove relativity. More precise experiments were consistent with relativity, as with all the other electromagnetic experiments. Just turn on an old-style TV set with a tube. How do you think that those pixels get lit up? RSchlafly 02:16, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

There is some overlap between the invariant equations for electromagnetism and for relativity. The electromagnetism invariant equations came first, so I think the better description would be that one cannot understand relativity without understanding electromagnetism, not vice versa. But what that has to do with gravity is far from clear. In fact, it probably has nothing to do with gravity. Note, by the way, that no Nobel Prizes have been awarded for applying relativity to electromagnetism, because no insights have been produced by relativity with respect to electromagnetism.

It's not relativity that lit up the pixels on an old TV screen. Quantum mechanics has more to do with that than relativity.--Andy Schlafly 02:32, 25 August 2011 (EDT)

Note, by the way, that no Nobel Prizes have been awarded for applying relativity to electromagnetism -> Untrue. Quantum electrodynsmics (QED) combines special relativity, electromagnetism and quantum mechanics. A Nobel Prize for its discovery was awarded to Feynman, Schwinger and Tomonaga in 1965.

no insights have been produced by relativity with respect to electromagnetism -> Also untrue. QED predictions are accurate within 12 significant digits, making it the most accurate theory we have. --MatthewQ 15:17, 25 August 2011 (EDT)

By my count, Nobel prizes were given for relativistic electromagnetism were given in 1902, 1907, 1933, 1945, 1965, 1979, 1980, 1984, and 1999. Prizes for relativistic gravity were given in 1978, 1983, and 1993. The list is here.[6] RSchlafly 01:11, 26 August 2011 (EDT)

@Andy Schlafly: Relativity predicts that no particle with mass can go the speed of light or faster. How do you explain that no particle accelerator has been able to get a massive particle at or above the speed of light? How do you explain the results that the inertial mass increases with velocity, as relativity predicts? --MatthewQ 19:00, 23 August 2011 (EDT)

PArticle accelerators don't. CERN (the biggest one) gets them exceedingly close, but not above. It's something like 99.999% of C. CaseyF 19:59, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

Relativity assumes that, rather than predicts it. I think relavitist purists would actually say all that is needed is a maximum velocity, whether that is "c" or something else. Many would not be genuinely surprised if velocities slightly faster than c are ultimately attained, and c itself may be changing over time.--Andy Schlafly 02:36, 25 August 2011 (EDT)

Historically, the constant speed of light was an empirical observation, and not just an assumption. Maxwell's theory predicted that electromagnetic waves traveled at the speed of light, and that was observed. It was one of the big reasons for concluding that light was an electromagnetic wave. Experiments like Michelson-Morley (1887) found a constant speed of light. Also, there were astronomical reasons for believing in a constant speed of light. Distances were measured in light-minutes or light-years, and that only makes sense if the speed is constant. Yes, Einstein declared the constant speed of light to be postulate in 1905, but by then it was a well-accepted empirical fact. Going faster than c or finding a variable c would now violate so much physics that it would be like finding a perpetual motion machine. RSchlafly 10:27, 25 August 2011 (EDT)

Empirical data suggest that the speed of light has changed over time, and as recently as 1/6th of the universe's lifetime. [7]

You comments, like "distances were measured in ... light-years, and that only makes sense if the speed is constant," is a political statement, not a scientific one. Likewise for stating that "finding a variable c would now violate so much physics ...." Is this what university science has become - ignoring the data to preserve the reputation of some current and past professors?--Andy Schlafly 18:05, 25 August 2011 (EDT)

The article you linked to claims that "The speed of light...may have been lower as recently as two billion years ago." How do you reconcile that time frame with a Young Earth Creationist model where the universe is only 6000 years old? You cant reject that study on the one hand because it directly contradicts the Bible but embrace it on the other when it supports the idea of a shifting c. BrentH 18:45, 25 August 2011 (EDT)

The linked article says there may have been a change in the fine structure constant, α, not necessarily the speed of light, c. Also, it hardly seems like a variable α is currently well-established. It's just the result from one set of data. But even accepting that there has been a change in α and that this means a change in c, the amount seems minuscule. The article says that α "had increased by a few parts in 10⁵ in the past 12 billion years", which would correspond to a similar change in c. Therefore, even if c is not exactly constant it would be very nearly constant and relativity would still be a great approximation. That's ignoring that there may be a mundane explanation for this apparent change.

Also, as BrentH mentions above, if you accept these results you have to accept that the universe is billions of years old. --MatthewQ 19:43, 25 August 2011 (EDT)

I was explaining historically why the speed of light was thought to be constant. It was not just some unproved Einstein relativity assumption. There was solid experimental and theoretical evidence before Einstein. There is no evidence for a variable speed of light. That 2004 paper claiming alpha changed has been superseded with a more accurate study in 2007, with no variation. [8][9] Even if alpha changed, it would not necessarily mean that c changed. I am not sure why any of this is political. We can measure the speed of light to about 10 decimal places. If the speed were not constant, then an experiment would be likely to detect it. RSchlafly 00:51, 26 August 2011 (EDT)

I wish you, Andy and I could have a drunken dinner together some time. That would be an epic debate. --SamCoulter 00:17, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

Aschlafly, what do you make of syncrotron radiation? Here you have effects which can't be explained without relativity and which are used in many fields of research, e.g. in medicine... 08:28, 26 August 2011 (EDT)

Wikipedia has many dubious claims that relativity explains something ... as one might expect from a liberal website. This scholarly article says that quantum mechanics is needed to explain syncrotron radiation. [10] It appears that this may be unresolved and I welcome more discussion about it. I don't see evidence that relativity played a role in discovering it.--Andy Schlafly 00:02, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

Nearly everything about charged particles requires relativity and quantum mechanics. There is no alternative way to understand charged particles, as far as I know. I do not even know what it would mean to reject relativity for this. RSchlafly 02:12, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

Relativity is an unproductive belief system, disproved by more precise measurements in the tests that supposedly verified it. String theory is taking over university physics programs because Relativity is so obviously flawed.--Andy Schlafly 12:28, 27 August

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String theory assumes that relativity is 100% correct. Physicists pursue string theory because they are sold on Einstein's dream of using relativistic ideas to unify physics, without having to pay attention to experiments. They are not pursuing string theory because they are persuaded by your list of relativity counterexamples. RSchlafly 14:47, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

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String theory's motivation is to provide a way to unite quantum mechanics and general relativity, so it assumes general relativity is a good description of nature. In fact, string theory becomes general relativity in the low energy limit. In addition, string theories are Lorentz invariant. Whatever the merits of string theory, relativity is incorporated fundamentally to it, so if anything this example speaks to the strength of relativity. --MatthewQ 15:11, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

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Andy Schlafly: "This scholarly article says that quantum mechanics is needed to explain syncrotron radiation. [11]"-> It also says (right in the abstract) that relativity must be taken into account:

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"However, when ɣB ≅ 10¹⁴ Gauss, where ɣ is the electron Lorentz factor, Compton scattering becomes important. The result is a reduction in the synchrotron loss rate which agrees closely with quantum electrodynamics." [Emphasis added]

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Both Compton scattering and quantum electrodynamics make use of special relativity. If you take a look at the equations in the paper you can see that special relativity is used explicitly. --MatthewQ 15:32, 27 August 2011 (EDT)2011 (EDT)

This discussion is interesting, and I'm learning from it. I have an open mind about this. But it seems to me that term "relativity" is being used in comments above to mean anything from "invariance" (which, of course, predates relativity), electromagnetism (which, of course, predates relativity), and even quantum mechanics (which many say conflicts with relativity). The only thing that "relativity" does not seem to mean in many of the above comments is its description of gravity -- which is what is unique to relativity and what most associate it with.--Andy Schlafly 20:48, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

The word "relativity" was coined by Maxwell, and it became popular from Poincare calling the "principle of relativity" the idea that different inertial frames are indistinguishable. When I said that string theory assumes relativity, I meant primarily that it assumes Lorentz/Poincare invariance. The influence of relativity on physics has been primarily in electromagnetism, not gravity. The nonlinear gravity effects are barely detectable. RSchlafly 22:45, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

* Again, general relativity is about gravity. Special relativity is not.

* No one is saying "quantum mechanics" means "relativity". However, the article you linked to referenced quantum electrodynamics (a subset of quantum mechanics) which does incorporate special relativity. Moreover, while general relativity and quantum mechanics are difficult to reconcile, special relativity and quantum mechanics aren't and doing so has produced the most accurate theory in physics.

* No one is saying "invariance" means "relativity". For example, Galilean invariance contradicts relativity. However, a special type of invariance, Lorentz invariance, is fundamental to both special and general relativity (it holds locally in general relativity). String theory is Lorentz invariant.

--MatthewQ 23:38, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

Actually, there were some people around 1910 who wanted to rename relativity theory as invariant theory. Einstein is sometimes said to have agreed with that opinion, but I am not sure he really said that. There is some disagreement about whether relativity is compatible with quantum mechanics. The two main problem areas are collapse of the wave function during an observation, and gravitational nonlinearities at the center of a black hole. But these are a little off the subject. The theories are completely compatible for nearly all considerations. RSchlafly 00:23, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

Relativity, general and special, is a way of looking at the world that is fundamentally different from how Aristotle, Copernicus, Newton, Maxwell, etc., looked at it. Most of the counterexamples here relate to the claims about gravity and the curvature of space that are made by general relativity. Special relativity, according to the theory, is a "special case" of the general theory. If you want to discuss them separately as though one could be true and one false, then I'm fine with that, but that would surprise me.

The mathematical theory of general or special relativity permits no exceptions. So even a slight variation (outside of measurement error) between observation and prediction means the theory is wrong. It means the worldview embodied in relativity is wrong. And those exceptions (counterexamples) exist in abundance; they can only be ignored by not looking at the data and not asking why the data are not being publicly disclosed.--Andy Schlafly 00:33, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

"Relativity, general and special, is a way of looking at the world that is fundamentally different from how Aristotle, Copernicus, Newton, Maxwell, etc., looked at it."

We encountered phenomena that none of these people had before. The precession of the perihelion of Mercury, the Michelson–Morley experiment, gravitational lensing, etc. Changing your worldview in light of new evidence is quite a sensible thing to do.

"If you want to discuss them separately as though one could be true and one false, then I'm fine with that, but that would surprise me."

It's not so much that, but that one must be careful to separate the two.

"And those exceptions (counterexamples) exist in abundance; they can only be ignored by not looking at the data and not asking why the data are not being publicly disclosed."

They haven't been ignored. The data has been analyzed and it agrees with relativity. Just here we've given you the examples of the Michelson–Morley experiment, the Kaufmann–Bucherer–Neumann experiments, Kennedy–Thorndike experiment, synchrotron radiation, etc. We've also answered here your alleged counterexamples to relativity and the problems with them. If you have any more I'd be happy to address them.

I'm not sure what data you're talking about that hasn't being publicly disclosed. --MatthewQ 01:19, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

Special relativity is not so much a special case, but rather the linearized version of the general theory. The special theory has been tested in many more different ways, and it could be true without the general theory being true. I really don't think that relativity requires any different view from Maxwell's. Relativity is consistent with what Maxwell said. I really don't see why you would say that relativity does not permit any exceptions any more than Maxwells theory does not permit any exceptions. What's the difference? Theories have formulas. If observations don't agree with the formulas, then something is wrong. Why is relativity any different from any other theory in the hard sciences? RSchlafly 01:41, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

Relativity should not be treated any differently compared with any other theory in the hard sciences. But Relativity obviously is:

• physics journals will not accept for publication anything that conflicts with the theory of relativity
• the Nobel Prize will not be given to anyone who has criticized the theory of relativity
• no science graduate student or science professor dare even criticize the above two forms of censorship.

As to the data, the two leading supposed verifications of the theory are the binary pulsar (for which a Nobel Prize was given) and the advance of the perihelion of Mercury. But subsequent data failed to confirm the theory and, at least with respect to the Mercury perihelion, conflicted with it. Yet additional data have not been made fully available to the public.--Andy Schlafly 18:47, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

I have to say I had no idea of this bias until reading Conservapedia. It sounds shocking. Can you tell me which physicists have been denied awards, or refused publication on this basis? It would be really useful in arguments I'm having off-site. RobertE 18:54, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

"But subsequent data failed to confirm the theory and, at least with respect to the Mercury perihelion, conflicted with it."

Can you please provide a source for this claim? What data are you talking about? --MatthewQ 19:01, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

A "source"? No source is needed, or possible given the censorship by physics journals I just described.

Wouldn't you be at least interested yourself in looking up what the precession for the Mercury perihelion is, and comparing it to what Relativity predicts? I think that would be the first step before one made up his mind, not something that must be raised by someone else.

The Mercury perihelion precession is 5599.7 arc-seconds per century, plus/minus 0.1. General Relativity predicts 5599.98, plus/minus 0.04. The observed precession is clearly outside of prediction by more than the standard of error. But beginning in the early 1990s, probably because of this emerging divergence, physicists stopped publishing the data perhaps to avoid pinpointing the contradiction with even greater accuracy.--Andy Schlafly 20:24, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

So by your own admission general relativity is within 0.005% of the correct value?

Anyway, where are you getting your information for the precession rate? From what I gather the error is larger than 0.1 arc-seconds per century.

Some values for the anomalous precession rate (i.e, deviation from what you expect from Newtonain gravity):

43.11 ± 0.21 (Shapiro et al., 1976)

42.92 ± 0.20 (Anderson et al., 1987)

42.94 ± 0.20 (Anderson et al., 1991)

43.13 ± 0.14 (Anderson et al., 1992)

[Source: Pijper 2008]

General relativity predicts 42.98 ±0.04, while Newtonian gravity predicts 0. Clearly general relativity is superior here. It's within experimental error in three out of the four experiments above, and just barely out of it with the fourth. --MatthewQ 22:22, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

The theory of relativity is proven wrong by the data, beyond measurement error. If you're not going to address that directly, then I'm unlikely to respond further to your comments.--Andy Schlafly 18:11, 29 August 2011 (EDT)

I really don't know what to say. I just showed that for four experiments of the precession of Mercury's perihelion relativity was within experimental uncertainty in three of them and just barely out of it for one. This is better that Newtonian theory which was zero for four. Measuring outside experimental uncertainty once doesn't automatically make a theory wrong. They are many differences between a simple, clean model and a complex, messy reality that can account for this. Even just by statistics alone you'd expect a correct theory to be outside measurement error once in a while. It still stands that relativity is more accurate than any other theory.

If you have any citations of experiments that show relativity's predictions fall outside experimental uncertainty I'll be happy to address them. However, just declaring that it's outside experimental uncertainty, but you don't have the data because a relativity cabal is keeping it secret is doesn't merit a response. --MatthewQ 20:54, 29 August 2011 (EDT)

The most recent -- and most precise -- Mercury perihelion precession data demonstrate that the theory of relativity is wrong by more than the measurement error. Case closed based on the data.

Last wordism is disfavored on this site. If someone has more precise Mercury perihelion precession data than what has disproved the theory of relativity, then a discussion of that data is welcome.--Andy Schlafly 17:58, 30 August 2011 (EDT)

Sigh... I just explained in detail why it wasn't "case closed". Being outside experimental error doesn't automatically make a theory wrong, especially when it isn't that far off. It could mean the theory is wrong or it could mean the theory is right, but by chance measured outside experimental uncertainty. By statistics we expect that to happen every now and then. You can't just cherry pick the one experiment that fits your preconceptions and declare it case closed. You have to take all the other experimental data into account. When you do that here (that is, you also look at the other three experiments) the results look in favor for relativity.

You can have the last word if you want. --MatthewQ 22:31, 30 August 2011 (EDT)

It is not true that the data demonstrate that the theory of relativity is wrong by more than the measurement error. What you have is a difference of opinion, and one scientist claiming that the combination of relativity and other assumptions and observations results in a discrepancy that exceeds the estimated measurement error. The problem could be with those other assumptions and observations, or with the estimate of the measurement error. As with the Pioneer anomaly, there are explanations that do not violate relativity. RSchlafly 14:11, 31 August 2011 (EDT)

Any and all attempts to reconcile the observed data with the theory of relativity are welcome. Instead, I not aware of the publication of observed data for this fundamental claim of the theory since 1992 (see above), despite improvements in technology and precision since then. Anyone think that it became impossible to observe the data after that time??? Notice what the data were showing leading up that point: increasing divergence (and contradiction) with the well-settled prediction made by the theory.--Andy Schlafly 17:37, 31 August 2011 (EDT)

Here is the Mercury Radar Ranging Data from 1987 to 1997. The work was carried out by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology under NASA. You are absolutely free to analyze the data in depth to see if the relativists are hiding anything. --MatthewQ 20:32, 31 August 2011 (EDT)

Somehow I doubt the data above (going five years after the supposed suppression of data began) is going appease you. Well, you can go send NASA a letter and ask them for the most recent data about Mercury's orbit. They might give it to you if you ask nicely and they almost certainly have it, since they currently have a space probe orbiting Mercury (I guess they didn't get the memo from the relativists telling everyone to ignore Mercury because it contradicted relativity). Anyway, once you get the data you'll have definitive proof that liberals have been suppressing important information about Mercury's orbit (or something). --MatthewQ 22:18, 31 August 2011 (EDT)

Looking back, I made a mistake. I said general relativity's prediction was outside the measurement uncertainty for the fourth experiment (Anderson et al., 1992). I misread it. GR prediciton: 42.98 ±0.04, Observation: 43.13 ± 0.14. They actually do overlap. So general relativity is four for four. My bad. --MatthewQ 23:41, 31 August 2011 (EDT)

I took a look at the JPL link above but did not find any reference to the perihelion.--Andy Schlafly 23:16, 1 September 2011 (EDT)

I'm pretty sure there's no reference to the perihelion because it's the raw data, without analysis. If the data was mapped to show Mercury's location, it would (presumably) show a perihelion. - JamesCA 20:25, 28 September 2011 (EDT)

More counterexamples

I found another page with a long list of supposed counterexamples. It looks like nonsense to me, but you can check it out for yourself. He says, "Fossil records indicate the Earth’s gravity was far less during the time of the dinosaurs." He does have references of many of his alleged anomalies. [12] RSchlafly 14:11, 31 August 2011 (EDT)

Denial of Nobel Prize to anyone who criticizes relativity

Robert Dicke, the finest American physicist of the 20th century, criticized the theory of relativity and was then never given a Nobel Prize. In fact, in a pattern also used to punish Fred Hoyle for his criticism of the theory of evolution, a Nobel Prize was given for Dicke's insight to other scientists less deserving of the award than Dicke, within years of Dicke's criticism of the theory of relativity.--Andy Schlafly 19:01, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

According to the National Academies Press Dicke was given:

"the National Medal of Science (1971), the Comstock Prize of the National Academy of Sciences (1973), and the NASA Medal for Exceptional Scientific Achievement (1973). He was a member of the National Science Board from 1970 to 1976. Bob was appointed to the Princeton University Department of Physics in 1946, served as chair from 1967 to 1970, moved to emeritus in 1984.

--MatthewQ 19:11, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

Right ... and no Nobel Prize, despite being the finest American physicist of the 20th century. Note also that it was his criticism of relativity in the mid-1970s -- after the awards you cite -- that caused him to be punished by the Nobel Prize committee. No one in grad school or on university faculties dare criticize Relativity again, no matter what the data say. No relativist will even criticize the policy of excluding anyone who criticizes the theory of relativity.--Andy Schlafly 20:13, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

I am sure the Nobel committee has its prejudices. Hoyle once wrote a letter to the London Times criticizing a Nobel physics prize. [13] So maybe they did not like him for that. By the time they gave the big bang prize in 1978, Gamow and others were dead. I would have rather given the prize to the theorists, but those are the biases of the folks in Sweden. I am not sure it has anything to do with the acceptability of relativity. There is a lot of excellent theoretical work that never got a prize, such as the work of Poincare and Minkowski on relativity. RSchlafly 22:56, 28 August 2011 (EDT)

You link to an interesting, in-depth article that gives other possible examples of Nobel Prize bias. But the article misses the timing on the insult to Fred Hoyle -- fall 1983 -- which was around the time that he was challenging a tenet of evolution (I'd like to obtain further details on the timing - his partner in the research apparently raised the criticism as early as 1980). Such a coincidence in timing for a prize that was given for 1957 work can hardly be ignored. Note that the article also says Fowler was "stunned" by the award's passing over Hoyle.

The article also omits the insults to Teller and Wheeler, to Robert Dicke, and to Raymond Damadian (see explanation in Nobel Prize).--Andy Schlafly 10:20, 29 August 2011 (EDT)

I am not sure I understand your bias theory, but even supposing that some Swedes have some prejudices, how does this relate to the merits of relativity? You criticize the 1978 prize. But that was for discovery of the cosmic microwave radiation that was predicted by relativity theorists and confirmed by a couple of telephone company engineers who were just trying to measure their satellite reception interference. They did not even believe in the relativity explanation. So why did the Swedes give the prize to the Bell engineers instead of the relativists? Maybe you should start a page on Counterexamples to Swedish Wisdom. RSchlafly 15:00, 29 August 2011 (EDT)

"Swedes" are not picking the Nobel Prize-winners. They just act on the recommendations of liberal professors who don't like criticism of the theories of evolution, relativity, or J. Robert Oppenheimer. Really, the bias is not that complicated. It's no different from the bias in Academy Awards, Pulitzer Prizes, Rhodes Scholars, or any other award system that is heavily influenced by leftists.

Once Fred Hoyle and Robert Dicke criticized liberal theories, they had to be punished. The greatest punishment is to award the Nobel Prize for their work to someone less deserving.--Andy Schlafly 18:08, 29 August 2011 (EDT)

Standard kilogrammes?

I'm not sure how good an argument this is. ONE out of a batch of 40 identical standard kilogrammes has diverged in weight from the others. Common sense says that there's something wrong with that one weight, which is after all stored in France. It's not likely that the answer has anything to do with relativity, which if correct would have caused an identical change in mass in all 40. --JMairs 21:06, 21 August 2011 (EDT)

I have a drawer full of socks. I cannot find a match for one of them. Can I blame relativity? RSchlafly 00:04, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Is it a French sock? --JMairs 08:14, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

Maybe so. Or from some other country where "kilogram" is spelled "kilogramme". RSchlafly 12:51, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

That would be everywhere except the USA. I'm English. --JMairs 21:24, 22 August 2011 (EDT)

I believe that it has something to do with the metals used are slightly radioactive and are emitting either alpha or beta particles causing a very slight decrease in weight. The answer doesn't have anything to do with relativity and is a well know issue. Scientists are currently trying to come up with a better way of standardizing mass. CaseyF 19:56, 27 August 2011 (EDT)

There's a difference between relativity and quantum mechanics (which explains the above observation). If you only took high school physics--you have about two hundred years of catching up to do on the field. --RudrickBoucher 17:49, 27 September 2011 (EDT)

Ummmm...

Physics has come a long way since Albert Einstein published his theories of relativity. Actually, there are quite a few hypothetical paradigms within modern physics that would allow a particle of sufficiently high energy to apparently travel faster than light. I'm not a physicist (as I've said on other pages, I'm a biologist), but I am peripherally familiar with a few of the better-supported ideas. I suggest you read up on M theory and string theory. At the risk of butchering the explanation (I am NOT a physicist), I will say that within the paradigm of M theory and string theory, observing high-energy particles moving slightly faster than light is not all that surprising. That said, the authors of the paper describing the "faster than light" neutrinos, admit up front that the numbers they got was probably the result of some sort of experimental error--the results need to be repeatable in order to be scientific. --RudrickBoucher 17:49, 27 September 2011 (EDT)

Science can advance with one observation, and it's not necessary to wait until it is repeated before discussing and learning from it. How quickly (if ever) was the Michelson-Morley experiment repeated?--Andy Schlafly 23:08, 27 September 2011 (EDT)

The Michelson-Morley experiment was first done in 1887. It was repeated by them and by others many times in the next few years. Illingworth and Kennedy came up with a variant that was more sensitive and could test for certain exotic explanations. They did that very soon after the initial experiment. Dayton Miller also did such experiments and continued to do them even after Einstein's work was completed. Miller acknowledged the results of the experiments but remained a committed opponent to special relativity. One of Miller's experiments did actually turn up some interesting results but his later experiments and other work failed to replicate it and it seems to have been a statistical anomaly. Others continued to duplicate versions of the MM experiment because the data from it can be used to test aspects of special relativity and other ideas. So duplicated forms have continued right up to the present day although generally using carefully tuned lasers as the light sources which give much more precision. JoshuaZ 00:23, 28 September 2011 (EDT)

Some experiments done following the MM experiment (not all listed, only some early ones and some recent ones): Morley-Miller 1902-1904 (published 1904), Miller 1921, Miller 1923-1924, Antonini et al 2005, Stanwix et al 2006, Eisele et al 2009, Herrmann et al 2009. Plus others between them, just listing some early ones and some recent ones. And it is usually necessary to wait until an experiment is repeated before accepting it to be accurate. A single observation, that can't be repeated, usually has an explanation within the current understanding of physics. For example, a network of ravines and gullies was observed in the 1870s on the surface of Mars, and there was wide speculation about their origin. An explanation suggested in the early 1900s wasn't proved until the 1960s, that the ravines and gullies were in actuality an optical illusion caused by streaks of dust blowing across the surface in the strong winds. Another example of a 'discovery' that later turned out to be false was the existence of Vulcan, a planet between Mercury and the Sun. A single observation, unconfirmed by repetition, does not indicate a discovery. - JamesCA 02:22, 28 September 2011 (EDT)

Yes, the M-M experiment was repeated many times. It had to be done at different times of the year, at different altitudes, with different materials, etc. Eg, maybe the length contraction might have been different for wood and brass.

There are physicists who have suggested faster than light particles, but string theory and M theory are Lorentz invariant and useless on the issue. The string theorists would definitely be surprised by anything faster than light. RSchlafly 02:24, 28 September 2011 (EDT)

Claimed results from a single experiment have been proven wrong before (e.g, the claims of producing cold fusion in 1989). It makes sense to see if an experiment is replicated before throwing out an extremely well tested theory. It's very suspicious that we haven't seen neutrinos going faster than the speed of light before this. Experimenters are only human beings and could easily have made a mistake or forget to include something in their calculations. The claimed velocity is only a tiny fraction lager than c and might easily be explained by not taking into account some systematic error.

If Mr. Schlafly's other 36 "counterexamples" are so strong then I don't see why he so badly needs the example of an unreplicated experiment whose data is still in the process of being analyzed. (When Einstein was asked about the book '100 Authors Against Einstein' he responded: "If I were wrong, it would only have taken one".) --MatthewQ 11:27, 28 September 2011 (EDT)

If the experiment is disproved by subsequent experiments, then that particular counterexample can be removed. But the insistence on clinging to the theory of relativity when the available evidence is to the contrary is unjustified. Einstein's quote is inapplicable to this issue: the context of Einstein's quote refers to a government attempt to discredit his theory. His quote does apply to government efforts to deny scientific evidence today, such as the attempt by the NCI to deny the abortion-breast cancer link.--Andy Schlafly 23:07, 28 September 2011 (EDT)

Gee, the experiment counts as a counterexample even before the facts are in. What a surprise....

I'm not sure if the German government was behind '100 Authors Against Einstein', but even if it were it's completely irrelevant. The folly wasn't that it was done by the government; it was that if relativity was wrong one good argument would suffice. The inclusion of this unconfirmed experimental result just shows how this list of "counterexamples" values quantity over quality. Rather than making a few strong arguments it's a list of 37 random tidbits. You're expecting to overturn one of science's best theories with something that can fit inside a Twitter post? The reasoning for many points' inclusion are not well explained and counterarguments are not addressed (e.g, Hawking radiation is called a "[c]ontrived explanation" with no justification whatsoever). I suspect the "conciseness" of the points is just a reflection of its author's short attention span. I'll report to the Worldwide Relativity Cabal that we have nothing to fear from... oops. --MatthewQ 01:46, 29 September 2011 (EDT)