Difference between revisions of "Talk:Devil"

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(Trimming {{fact}} tags: Strong's was a brilliant work in the 1800s. "Slanderer" today does not connote the same thing that it connoted in the 1800s, and Strong's (like many Bible experts) sometimes overlooks or downplays physics-type meanings of ter)
(Trimming {{fact}} tags: where has διαβάλλω ever been used a ''"to throw things around" in the sense of creating the chaos''?)
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::That's the problem here: Andy got an insight into the ''real'' meaning of διαβάλλω - and he is oblivious to the fact that no one else has ever understood the word in his way. Unfortunately, whenever Andy gets an insight, he tends to ignore things like a lexicon or a few hundred years of etymological science ... --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 16:13, 26 April 2018 (EDT)
 
::That's the problem here: Andy got an insight into the ''real'' meaning of διαβάλλω - and he is oblivious to the fact that no one else has ever understood the word in his way. Unfortunately, whenever Andy gets an insight, he tends to ignore things like a lexicon or a few hundred years of etymological science ... --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 16:13, 26 April 2018 (EDT)
 
:::Still thinking about this with an open mind, without being overly literal.  Strong's was a brilliant work in the 1800s.  "Slanderer" today does not connote the same thing that it connoted in the 1800s, and Strong's (like many Bible experts) sometimes overlooks or downplays physics-type meanings of terms.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] ([[User talk:Aschlafly|talk]]) 21:41, 26 April 2018 (EDT)
 
:::Still thinking about this with an open mind, without being overly literal.  Strong's was a brilliant work in the 1800s.  "Slanderer" today does not connote the same thing that it connoted in the 1800s, and Strong's (like many Bible experts) sometimes overlooks or downplays physics-type meanings of terms.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] ([[User talk:Aschlafly|talk]]) 21:41, 26 April 2018 (EDT)
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::::Andy, you do not only need to have an open mind, more importantly, you have to '''show us where διαβάλλω has ever been used a  ''"to throw things around" in the sense of creating the chaos''!'''
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::::This has nothing to do with "physics-type meanings of terms": you just made up a [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Devil&diff=722025&oldid=712065 new meaning] for a Greek word: the physics-type meaning" of διαβάλλω is "to throw sth. over sth.", "to throw sth. across sth.", "to carry sth. over sth.", or "to carry sth. across sth." (see above).
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::::Megabates didn't wish to scatter his fleet, or to create chaos within it, in the ''Knights'', Cleon is not said to throw his opponent around.
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::::If nobody but you has ever used the word διαβάλλω in the sense which you ascribed to it, what stops you from calling your "table" a "carpet"?
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::::--[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 18:23, 27 April 2018 (EDT)

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False etymology

διαβάλλω is contracted from διά and βάλλω and it means "to throw or carry over or across", but it is literally used to describe a move in wrestling or "to pass over, cross". So generally it is used to describe the throw of a single item, e.g. your opponent when wrestling or yourself (used reflexively as "to cross") - that's not how one creates chaos! Figuratively, it means "to attack a man's character, calumniate", "to speak or state slanderously", "deceive by false accounts", etc. To stress my: διαβάλλω does not mean to create chaos, it has nothing to do with disorder. διάβόλος is a slanderer, διάβόλος doesn't mean creator of chaos. There is no evidence that it is even used literally in the sense of someone passing, etc. (See Liddell-Scott]) --AugustO 09:04, 3 March 2013 (EST)

According to this, the word can also mean "divert from a course of action" and according to your website it could also mean "filled with suspicion against another" i.e creating discord, or chaos in other words. Therefore the interpretation of the word as chaos is valid. - Markman 09:21, 3 March 2013 (EST)
That is very weak indeed! Chaos implies discord, but filling with suspicion doesn't necessarily imply chaos. There is no source which ever has translated διάβόλος as "one who creates chaos" or even "one who throws things around" in the sense of creating the chaos. That's a mixture of clutching straws and wishful thinking, mixed with folk-etymology - it isn't used in that sense.
Indeed, διάβόλος is even one step removed from διαβάλλω - it is generally only used as "slanderer".

--AugustO 09:28, 3 March 2013 (EST)

When you take into account Satan's rule over the earth, causing division cannot means anything other than chaos. - Markman 09:33, 3 March 2013 (EST)
That's not translating - that' just playing a game of word associations. I hope that you are more diligent when tranlating the Hebrew text.
Yes, Satan creates chaos. But your reasoning is circular:
Satan obviously creates chaos and Devil means Satan therefore Devil means creator of chaos. So, now Devil means creator of chaos, therefore the Bible talked about chaos when it spoke of Satan as the devil, proving that Satan creates chaos.


The meaning of διάβόλος is slanderer. You won't find any Greek source where it is understood in another meaning. So even if Luke started to use a new meaning for this word (as a kind of Biblical Humpty-Dumpty), his listeners only would have understood "slanderer".
Markman, please think about the above and undo your edit. Thanks.
--AugustO 09:42, 3 March 2013 (EST)
"his listeners only would have understood "slanderer"" His listeners (or more accurately readers) were Christians, so they would have already understood that the Devil is the source of all evil. When you add to that the meaning of the word as "divert from a course of action"/"filled with suspicion against another"/"one who throws things", they would have understood it to mean chaos. - Markman 09:53, 3 March 2013 (EST)
No. The Jews did not have the same concept of Satan as Christ reveals. Most readers were Jews or Christians in a much more Jewish church than we know now. Given that the purpose of the gospels and letters is to teach and exhort, it is hard to say that all readers would have understood that the devil is the source of all evil. Anyway, as I already mentioned Mr. Schlafly, there is no indication from any use of diabolos in the entire new testament that any author ever used diabolos to refer to chaos or any concept like chaos. It means "slanderer". That's it. Nate 10:30, 3 March 2013 (EST)
The "slanderer" translation does not fit in the context of the Three Temptations of Christ. The devil was not slandering anyone then. What the devil was doing was trying to derail or create a chaotic disruption to God's order and purpose.--Andy Schlafly 10:43, 3 March 2013 (EST)
It fits fine. It is not a translation. It's his name, or really the kind of thing he is, in every use you're referring to, not a reference to some action he is taking. Nate 10:59, 3 March 2013 (EST)

For the record:

  • διαβάλλωv has never been used in the sense of "to throw things around", especially not "in the sense of creating the chaos". This is a mistranslation of διά, which mainly means "through".
  • διάβόλος has only been used in the sense of slanderer, διάβόλος has never been used in the sense of creator of chaos. There is no Greek lexicon which supports this "translation", it is pure fiction.

Therefore the sentence "(from the Greek word διαβολοξ (diábolos), which means "one who throws things around" in the sense of creating the chaos, or "slanderer" in the sense of name-calling or "throwing" false accusations)" is absolutely wrong. I'm sorry that Luke didn't use the word Andrew Schlafly thinks he should have used, but that cannot (and should not) be changed. Yes, a slanderer can create chaos and still be called a slanderer.

Is it really necessary to stress the fact that there is a difference between translation and exegesis? Though in this case the technical term seems to be making stuff up. Andrew Schlafly is putting his own interpretation into the translation - that's not longer translating, that's torturing scripture. Again:

Μαρτυρῶ ἐγὼ παντὶ τῷ ἀκούοντι τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου· ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ ἐπ’ αὐτά, ἐπιθήσει ὁ θεὸς ἐπ’ αὐτὸν τὰς πληγὰς τὰς γεγραμμένας ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ, Μαρτυρῶ ἐγὼ παντὶ τῷ ἀκούοντι τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου· ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ ἐπ’ αὐτά, ἐπιθήσει ὁ θεὸς ἐπ’ αὐτὸν τὰς πληγὰς τὰς γεγραμμένας ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ, Λέγει ὁ μαρτυρῶν ταῦτα, Ναί, ἔρχομαι ταχύ. Ἀμήν, ἔρχου κύριε Ἰησοῦ.

Rev 22:18-20

--AugustO 10:59, 5 March 2013 (EST)

Five years later - from the Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek-English Lexicon pp. 389-390

διαβάλλω, fut. -βᾰλῶ: pf. -βέβληκα:—throw or carry over or across, νέας Hdt.5.33,34; in wrestling, Ar.Eq.262 codd.

2. more freq. intr., pass over, cross, ἐκ . . ἐς . . Hdt.9.114; φυγῇ πρὸς Ἄργος E.Supp.931; πρὸς τὴν ἤπειρον Th.2.83: c. acc. spatii, δ. πόρον A. Fr.69 (dub.); γεφύρας E.Rh.117; τὸν Ἰόνιον Th.6.30; τὸ πέλαγος εἰς Μεσσαπίους Demetr.Com.Vet.1.

3. put through, τῆς θύρας δάκτυλον D.L.1.118; τύλος διαβεβλημένος διὰ τοῦ ῥυμοῦ Arr.An.2.3.7 ( = Aristobul.Fr.4); κρίκων δι’ ἀλλήλων διαβεβλημένων D.Chr.30.20; διαβληθέντων τῶν ἀγκώνων διὰ μέσων τῶν τόνων Hero Bel.101.12, cf. 108.6.

II. in Ar.Pax643 ἅττα διαβάλοι τις αὐτῷ, ταῦτ’ ἂν ἥδιστ’ ἤσθιεν, for παραβάλοι, whatever scraps they threw to him, with a play on signf. v.

III. set at variance, ἐμὲ καὶ Ἀγάθωνα Pl.Smp.222c, 222d, cf. R.498c; δ. τινὰς ἀλλήλοις Arist.Pol.1313b16; set against, τινὰς πρὸς τὰ πάθη, πρὸς τὴν βρῶσιν, Plu.2.727d, 730f; bring into discredit, μή με διαβάλῃς στρατῷ S.Ph.582; δ. [τινὰ] τῇ πόλει Pl.R.566b:— Pass., to be at variance with, τινί Id.Phd.67e; to be filled with suspicion and resentment against another, Hdt.5.35, 6.64, Th.8.81, 83; οὐδὲν ὑπολείπεται ὅτῳ ἄν μοι δικαίως διαβεβλῇσθε And.2.24; πρός τινα Hdt. 8.22, Arist.Rh.1404b21, Plb.30.19.2; τοὺς -βεβλημένους πρὸς τὴν φιλοσοφίαν Isoc.15.175; to be brought into discredit, ἐς τοὺς ξυμμάχους Th.4.22; διαβεβλημένος discredited, Lys.7.27, 8.7.

IV. put off with evasions, δ. τινὰ μίαν (sc. ἡμέραν) ἐκ μιᾶς Sammelb.5343.41 (ii A. D.), cf. PFlor.36.23 (iv A. D.).

V. attack a man's character, calumniate, δ. τοὺς Ἀθηναίους πρὸς τὸν Ἀρταφρένεα Hdt.5.96; Πελοποννησίους ἐς τοὺς Ἕλληνας Th.3.109; διέβαλλον τοὺς Ἴωνας ὡς δι’ ἐκείνους ἀπολοίατο αἱ νέες Hdt.8.90; διαβαλὼν αὐτοὺς ὡς οὐδὲν ἀληθὲς ἐν νῷ ἔχουσι Th.5.45; accuse, complain of, without implied malice or falsehood, PTeb.23.4 (ii B. C.): c. dat. rei, reproach a man with . ., τῇ ἀτυχίᾳ Antipho 2.4.4; δ. τινὰ εἴς or πρός τι, Luc.Demon. 50, Macr.14:—Pass., διεβλήθη ὡς Ev.Luc.16.1; ἐπὶ βίῳ μὴ σώφρονι διαβεβλημένος Hdn.2.6.6.

2. c. acc. rei, misrepresent, D.18.225, 28.1, etc.: speak or state slanderously, ὡς οὗτος διέβαλλεν Id.18.20, cf. ib.14; τοῦτό μου διαβάλλει ib.28: generally, give hostile information, without any insinuation of falsehood, Th.3.4.

3. δ. τι εἴς τινα lay the blame for a thing on . ., Procop.Arc.22.19.

4. disprove a scientific or philosophical doctrine, Gal.5.289:—Pass., Id.5.480, Plu.2.930b.

5. δ. ἔπος declare it spurious, Id.Thes. 34.

VI. deceive by false accounts, impose upon, mislead, τινά Hdt.3.1, 5.50, 8.110, E.Fr.435:—Med., Hdt.9.116, Ar.Av.1648 (ubi v. Sch.), Th.1214:—Pass., Hp.Nat.Puer.30, Pl.Phdr.255a, Plu.2.563d.

VII. divert from a course of action, πρὸς τὴν κακίαν τινάς ib.809f:—Pass., ψυχὴ -βέβληται πρὸς μάχην Arr.Epict.2.26.3.

VIII. Med., contract an obligation (?), Leg.Gort.9.26.

IX. διαβάλλεσθαι ἀστραγάλοις πρός τινα throw against him, Plu.2.148d, 272f.

Andy, please show us a single use of διαβάλλω in the Greek literature where this word is used to mean "throw things around"...

--AugustO (talk) 08:41, 25 April 2018 (EDT)

Trimming {{fact}} tags

I added fact-tags to the following statements:

  • [Devil] means "one who throws things around"
  • in the sense of creating the chaos

I did so because I couldn't find any source which corroborates these statements - which leads me to the conclusion that those are wrong. But if anyone can find a lexicon which supports these translation, I'd love to see it. I couldn't find any evidence that any Greek has ever understood the word διάβόλος in any other sense but as slanderer--AugustO 10:25, 15 March 2013 (EDT)

I've never studied Greek, but what I'm seeing seems to back you up. According to Strong's, it is "literally someone who 'casts through,' i.e. making charges that bring down (destroy)." Perhaps this is where the confusion came from? --David B (TALK) 10:21, 25 April 2018 (EDT)
There is a short story of Peter Bichsel "Ein Tisch ist ein Tisch" ("a table is a table"), which can be found in many German textbooks for high-school pupils: Bichsel describes a man who one day decides to call his table henceforth a carpet, his bed a picture, his chair a clock and so on. This amuses him for a while, but he get lost in his own language and cannot communicate with others any more.
That's the problem here: Andy got an insight into the real meaning of διαβάλλω - and he is oblivious to the fact that no one else has ever understood the word in his way. Unfortunately, whenever Andy gets an insight, he tends to ignore things like a lexicon or a few hundred years of etymological science ... --AugustO (talk) 16:13, 26 April 2018 (EDT)
Still thinking about this with an open mind, without being overly literal. Strong's was a brilliant work in the 1800s. "Slanderer" today does not connote the same thing that it connoted in the 1800s, and Strong's (like many Bible experts) sometimes overlooks or downplays physics-type meanings of terms.--Andy Schlafly (talk) 21:41, 26 April 2018 (EDT)
Andy, you do not only need to have an open mind, more importantly, you have to show us where διαβάλλω has ever been used a "to throw things around" in the sense of creating the chaos!
This has nothing to do with "physics-type meanings of terms": you just made up a new meaning for a Greek word: the physics-type meaning" of διαβάλλω is "to throw sth. over sth.", "to throw sth. across sth.", "to carry sth. over sth.", or "to carry sth. across sth." (see above).
Megabates didn't wish to scatter his fleet, or to create chaos within it, in the Knights, Cleon is not said to throw his opponent around.
If nobody but you has ever used the word διαβάλλω in the sense which you ascribed to it, what stops you from calling your "table" a "carpet"?
--AugustO (talk) 18:23, 27 April 2018 (EDT)