Difference between revisions of "Talk:Dungeons and Dragons"

Revision as of 01:55, February 4, 2008

Disappointing So-Called Conservative Views

I have noticed that there is considerable push back from the community when it comes to labeling occultism as occultism. This site is supposed to express conservative points of view, yet any suggestion that dungeons and dragons, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, H. P. Lovecraft and even the Satanism are adopting a shockingly neutral point of view (which I thought was a Wikipedia trait). I'm half tempted to get my pastor involved in this site, since I know he'd be more willing to challenge the...and forgive me, but...the rampant fanboyism that pervades these articles despite the negative feelings I can sense it engenders. The casual use of occult themes in games and literature should be no less offensive to the Christian community than the casual use of homosexual themes in similar contexts.

Dungeons and dragons and Lord of the Rings are to Bible what Brokeback Mountain is to the Bible, the fictional depiction of abominable practices. Make no mistake that both homosexuality and occultism are "abomination" in the eyes of the Lord. While these games, books and films are certainly are protected speech in this country and I would not censor them (neither dungeons and dragons nor Brokeback Mountain), that they are protected doesn't mean we should save them from all criticism or that they do not lead the faithful astray, small step by small step. JesusSaves 13 March 2007 06:24 (EDT)

They are the fictional depiction of the occult. The key word there being "fictional". I find it shocking that some people actually take things like Harry Potter, D&D, Lord Of The Rings and others as serious threats to religion. It is nothing but fiction, that's all it is, it's not trying to trick people into worshipping Satan or performing witchcraft. They exist purely for the sake of entertainment. I'd be against any sort of move by the people of this site to start censoring and condemning these things. Also, having read those articles, I haven't found much fanboyism at all, just facts.NSmyth 06:40, March 13 2007 (EDT)

It was fictional homosexual cowboys in Brokeback Mountain and I suspect the film didn't suggest that anyone in the audience turn gay. I'd therefore have to guess that, in your opinion, conservatives who criticized that movie's homosexual themes were all way off base, because it was harmless entertainment? Hey, the Last Temptation of Christ was a fictional representation of Jesus, so was the blasphemy in that movie also beyond reproach? JesusSaves 13 March 2007 06:50 (EDT)

Brokeback Mountain is a whole different debate, I'm not even going to touch that one for now. I just focussed on the occult part of your post. NSmyth 06:52, March 13 2007 (EDT)

See the link above. The Bible calls them both "abomination," homosexuality and occultism alike. As a Christian I do not get to pick and choose which biblical condemnations to heed and which "don't count." In fact, occultism in American art is, to me, more troubling than homosexuality, because the occult content is widely accepted by many (even by people who are otherwise good Christians but who do not recognize that magic and the occult are every bit as condemned in the Bible as homosexuality) in a way that homosexuality is not. Homosexuality is losing in the culture war. Christians don't even realize there's a problem with occultism in the culture. JesusSaves 13 March 2007 06:57 (EDT)

The Bible _also_ calls eating shellfish "an abomination". I guess God Hates Shrimp? --Gulik3 00:30, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

What aboutTestament: Roleplaying in the Biblical Era? It is a derivative of dungeons and Dragons. Would that be an ok game to play?

Cut from end of article:

Tracy Hickman, one of the main authors of Dungeons and Dragons, and a Christian with conservative politics and theology, has written a number of articles defending and discussing D&D from a Christian perspective. ^[1] Others within the Dungeons and Dragons community responded by writing other defenses from rationalist perspectives or other perspectives or by writing parodies such as ""Chess: The Subtle Sin: Should Christians play chess?". In response to the perceived Christian persecution of the Dungeons and Dragons, darker themed, deliberately counter-cultural games appeared in reaction such as Call of Cthluhu which is based on the horror writing of H.P. Lovecraft and set in the Cthulhu Mythos.^[1]

Has it been established that Hickman has conservative politics? And what theology or Christian perspective does he believe in?

This passage asserts that all the fuss is unjustified, using the appeal to authority fallacy. (Some Wikipedians use a similar argument to justify the theory of anthropogenic global warming: a "consensus" of scientists says it is true, according to the U.N. which is so "impartial" it would never use junk science to score political points). --Ed Poor 05:02, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

According to his personal website he's a Mormon that has done some missionary work in Asia. I haven't found anything on his website about politics but it is pretty big. [1] --Sulgran 05:58, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

The source given for the section states that Hickman's views are conservative both politically and theologically (and among D&D people this is well known anyways). There isn't any appeal to authority fallacy occuring here, simply noting that there are Consevative Christians who don't agree with the criticisms. JoshuaZ 16:05, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

All Mormons are required to do missionary work. And going by the DragonLance books, where too much of an emphasis on good or evil is wrong and there must always be a balance, I don't see the conservative Christian elements necessarily coming through in the writing. Learn together 00:52, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Not to nit-pick, but the "appeal to authority" fallacy focuses on "Do this or you'll be punished" not "These people know far more than you about the topic, therefore you should listen to them." Barikada 22:39, 17 January 2008 (EST)

Seems like the criticism centers on sex and sorcery. As a parent myself, I don't want my children involved in anything which promotes premarital sex, adultery, fornication or other evils. --Ed Poor 07:21, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

Sorcery, fair enough, although that's just a fictional element - but the sexual element is way overstated. I've played these games for a decade and a half, and I've never seen anything that has to do with sex directly. Sure, there is a tradition of "immodestly dressed women", but nothing worse than Raphael or Botticelli, for instance. Besides, the art in the latest edition of D&D is horrible, so... ;-) --AKjeldsen 07:33, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

You left out National Geographic. I stopped reading it because of its soft-porn semi-nude "savage" pictures. --Ed Poor 09:22, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

That too, I guess. Anyway, the age of the scantly-clad females in roleplaying game products is more or less a thing of the past these days. The games are appealing to a broader audience these days, not least women, so the publishers know that they need to be careful with such things. So you can easily let your kids play the games - it'll be good for them in the long run, trust me. --AKjeldsen 09:30, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

No, no it is not. Sex sells, especially to the largely male and nerdy audience that plays D&D. --Gulik3 00:30, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Indeed, since the primary audience of D&D is teenage boys, and teenage boys have pretty much always been hormones with legs, it stands to reason there will be some appeal to libido. Learn together 00:52, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Nobody buys hundreds of dollars of rulebooks to see a flash of crudely-drawn breasts. Kazumaru 20:43, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

It's certainly an incentive. The primary rule of marketing is to find something to catch the eye of your potential consumers. Overall, it appears to have worked rather well. Learn together 23:27, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

I've flipped through the Player's Handbook a few times... Didn't see any breasts that were worth remembering. Though... IF you're implying that you know there's nudity in it because it sells well, and that's because of the nudity in it... I'm confused. If not, I misread that post.Kazumaru 23:59, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

Recent Edit

Can you show me please where you get this?

The main purpose for this is political correctness. Fair play standards state that a player who's charecter worships a different deity than a real world deity should be denied abilities. This would indicate that polytheistic belifes are justified. Thus it is fairest for a DM to disalow real world religions to avoid offending others.

I am not aware of this rule, although it could of course still exist. Learn together 22:20, 7 June 2007 (EDT)

The fair play I mentioned is not an official rule. It is a general principle that is common to all games. In Dungeons and Dragons clerics of any deity gain powers. If a real world deity was placed in the game a cleric of that deity could get powers from that faith. However in that same campaign if another charecter wants to play a cleric and get powers from another faith there is no fair reason to deny them those powers. However if you give both players those powers then the monotheistic principles of many religions are "wrong". Thus to avoid offending any faith it is easiest to create fake deities and disallow real world religions to prevent arguments and other problems from arrising.

NBianchi

Controversy and Criticism

Weesna, could you please explain your recent edits? Removal of information from an article that multiple editors have constructed should only be undertaken with discussion of what occurred. Thanks Learn together 23:30, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

I don't know about the first edit (it's hard to know if many players actually change the game around), but as a player I'll vouch for the validity of the second two edits. While it is true to say that nudity is not graphic nor a part of the game, you can find on the Wizards website both a black and white and a color version of a harpy, both have exposed breasts. As for "discouraging evil players" it's a lot harder to prove with one reference, but this also is generally not true. There are some ways to summon a demon which cost experience, but at the same time you can summon good creatures in exchange for experience as well. I will browse through my books to see if I can find a definitive quotation to prove it, but for now I hope my testimony will suffice. Jazzman831 23:37, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

Your testimony is fine as far as I am concerned. If there were any difficulties with it, some other player would be sure to mention it. Learn together 23:42, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

Nice picture

D&D session with a guy wearing a shirt with a pentagram on it. And to think anyone wonders why people connect witchcraft/Satanism to D&D. Jinxmchue 21:32, 18 January 2008 (EST)

That would be the same pentagram that, amongst other things, at one point, was used by Christians to represent the five wounds of Jesus? That pentagram? Zmidponk 19:13, 23 January 2008 (EST)

The page did come from Wikimedia Commons... I'm not sure if that falls within CP guidelines or not. DanH 19:15, 23 January 2008 (EST)

The image is correctly licensed for use here: "free to copy, distribute and transmit the work" so long as the author is attributed. Its much better than trying to claim fair use on a copyrighted image. As for the content of the image, what's the issue? It's people playing the game, read into it what you will. 10px Fox (talk|contribs) 19:54, 23 January 2008 (EST)

The issue is that the picture serves only to reinforce the presumed connection between D&D and the Darn Evil Satanists. Given your statement, I'm not sure you were at all aware of this, so this is just a heads up. Barikada 20:12, 23 January 2008 (EST)

Software failures

Possibly a superscript notice informing the reader that the correct title of the page is, in fact, Dungeons & Dragons? At the top? Barikada 20:42, 3 February 2008 (EST)

Actually, I just did some checking. It looks like you can create an article called Dungeons & Dragons, but you can't search using the amperand, or it only uses the first word. I don't know how moving would work in that respect. I'll ask PJR if he knows, since he seems to be on right now. HelpJazz 20:48, 3 February 2008 (EST)

Yeah I have no idea. You can link correctly to Dungeons & dragons, but not Dungeons & Dragons. So maybe it's best if we just keep the link here, and add a warning at the top. HelpJazz 20:55, 3 February 2008 (EST)