Talk:Engel v. Vitale

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The idea that Engel v. Vitale prohibited prayer in public schools is disingenuous. The opening paragraph of the decision specifically states: "Because of the prohibition of the First Amendment against the enactment of any law "respecting an establishment of religion," which is made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment, state officials may not compose an official state prayer and require that it be recited in the public schools of the State at the beginning of each school day - even if the prayer is denominationally neutral and pupils who wish to do so may remain silent or be excused from the room while the prayer is being recited."

Recommend the article be changed to reflect the actual words of the court. --Lakota 22:39, 7 August 2007 (EDT)

I second this motion. Anyone who's ever been to a public school knows that prayer is not banned there. No one cared that I recited the shema before every single calculus test I ever took. This court case bans the school (an extension of the government) from mandating an official prayer be recited, as this is obviously in violation with the principle behind the Establishment clause. But heck, if you want this court case reverted, just don't get upset when some schools erect minarets and have a call to prayer each morning before homeroom! ΨtrykeЯ eh?> 12:31, 8 August 2007 (EDT)
I teach in a public school, kids can pray all they want (though in a manner not to disrupt class). I went to school well after this court decsion, yet still attended a school sponsored Bible club after school. The only thing the school can't do is have teachers hold prayers...not all students praty to the same god. Maestro 00:57, 9 August 2007 (EDT)
  • I see we are from vastly different parts of the country. Where I grew up and in many cases across the country, attempts to have "Bible clubs" meet on school grounds after school hours are fought tooth and nail. It is only after a lawsuit that they are eventually allowed, and usually after the original students have graduated. Any effort of a Valedictorian to mention God in their speech could result in the diploma of that student being withheld. And yet I was at a graduation last year where the speaker mentioned don't trust in God but trust in yourself, and that of course was allowed.
  • It seems to me to only record the words and not the effect that the court case has had across the schools would be disingenuous. Learn together 02:08, 9 August 2007 (EDT)
  • Fair enough, but the article is still stating something that is obviously untrue. Students are allowed to pray in public schools and Engel v. Vitale did not strike down this right. Saying otherwise makes no sense, it doesn’t matter if the author is conservative or liberal; what he/she wrote is easily demonstrated to be false.--Lakota 15:20, 9 August 2007 (EDT)
You're simply wrong. Students are not allowed to pray aloud in the classroom. Godspeed.--Aschlafly 15:23, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

I grew up in one of the most culturally conservative parts of the nation (a state with a Young Earth Creationist majority on the school board off and on), and there was no classroom prayer... anywhere. At one point after 9/11, the principal ordered a moment of silence, but there was no prayer. DanH 15:25, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

Andy, you can't pray aloud if it disrupts classroom instruction. And when you're at school, you would expect that instruction would be taking place most of the time. --Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğθαλκ 15:33, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

Major speech?

I tried to find another source for Griswold's "major speech" and googled for "might be rather perplexed by the use which has been made of it in 1962"

The result: This CP article is the ONLY site in the entire spidered Internet that contains exactly this phrase. Could somebody maybe replace this with a more verifiable quote by somebody else? I honestly don't see the "major" part of this speech if it hasn't even been cited anywhere else. --Jenkins 10:43, 3 November 2007 (EDT)


Who was Engel, anyway? and who was Vitale? I've looked it up on 2 sites and couldn't find it. --Steve 14:28, 25 February 2008 (EST)

I am going to add a new section

I am going to add a new section to show just how much harm this ruling has to the nation of America. AnthonyD 21:50, 14 December 2011 (EST)