Difference between revisions of "Talk:Essay:Best New Conservative Words"

Revision as of 03:08, June 13, 2009

Archive 1

Dramacast?

Under your words not yet recognized, you include the word "dramacast" to decribe what happens when "mainstream media presents drama fluff stories as news, e.g. 20/20 - Dateline."

I've never come across the word "dramacast," and a google search brings up no hits. However, doesn't "infotainment" mean the same thing? Has that made it into the dictionary yet? JDWpianist 09:25, 10 May 2009 (EDT)

Good point. The "dramacast" addition was not by me, and you can insert a better substitute such as "infotainment" or perhaps "docudrama". Godspeed.--Andy Schlafly 09:47, 10 May 2009 (EDT)

Just did. Infotainment seems closer to the concept than "docudrama," which always seems to indicate something longer. It might be good as its own separate entry. JDWpianist 10:32, 10 May 2009 (EDT)

Closed Shop

You might like to include Closed shop. -CGoodwin

Superb suggestion. Will add now. Thanks.--Andy Schlafly 14:55, 13 May 2009 (EDT)

Suggestion

From the 19th century, I suggest 'scrooge' - a miser who, despite wealth, does not give to charity or allow wealth to circulate and benefit the wider economy. Clearly this orginates from A Christmas Carol, which was written in that century.--CPalmer 08:45, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

Superb suggestion. Please add with a precise date, if you have one. I'm also working on a few possibilities for 1700s and 1800s to perfect the geometric fit, but yours is better than mine.--Andy Schlafly 12:15, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

It looks like the novella was published in 1843 [1] but I don't have a citation for the first general use of 'scrooge' to describe any miser. I know the book was an immediate success when it was published, so it can't have been long after. Perhaps you have a bigger dictionary than I do?--CPalmer 19:42, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

Question

Just out of curiosity, what exactly makes a word conservative or liberal? For example, liberals often practice double standard far more than conservatives, so wouldn't that make it a liberal word? Same with hysteria, since most media hype is in liberal news sources like MSNBC and CNN. TheRealMattJohnson 18:11, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

Welcome to Conservapedia, home of Patriots. Take hysteria, studies will prove people without God are less grounded, more frequent to have off-the-wall behavior patterns, gradually regressing in communication with others. My conclusion is a sane person (grounded in the Lord, conservative by default) would have created the diagnosis, hence crafted the word hysteria. That is just one example, my 2 cents anyway, comprehend?

If you do Merriam-Webster dictionary search, you are likely to find the dates and further research the origin, its like word salad.--Jpatt 18:23, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

So it's less words that apply to conservatives and more words coined by the conservatives themselves? TheRealMattJohnson 19:11, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

Conservative terms are crafted, coined (growth rate) faster than liberal words. This shows that generations have been conservative while liberal crafted words have spurts of growth. Example, 1960 ideas such as freedom of mind drug talk, explore feminism, tune-in drop-out of society became associated with that generation in disproportane numbers. We may be now in such a new phase of liberalism; tax, big government, empathy legislation, gay rights, environmentalism- which will give way to the next sustained period of conservatism.--Jpatt 19:30, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

Suggested word

Could I suggest Astroturfing as a conservative word? It was coined around 1998 as a response to false grassroot movements by Microsoft, but can refer to political movements as well. I consider it conservative because it is a good word for pinpointing deceit. [2] TheRealMattJohnson 21:22, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

Haven't heard of that term in politics, so I'm not sure it qualifies yet. The word has to catch on a bit to earn its way in this entry.--Andy Schlafly 23:41, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

No capitalism?

I was rather shocked to notice that capitalism (circa 1850) isn't included as a new conservative word. Was this intentional? I would also suggest constructionist (circa 1835) as another conservative word of value.--Benp 15:58, 15 May 2009 (EDT)

A few more suggestions (one from 1700's)

According to Random House, "republican" has its origin around 1685...close, but not quite in the time period you're looking for. "Evangelism" is 1620-1630, and "missionary" is 1635-1645.

Aha! What about "states' rights," circa 1790? --Benp 12:11, 16 May 2009 (EDT)

"Republican" is a good suggestion, but the term is associated more with the Republican Party than with conservatism. There are arguments that conservatism is populist in nature. "Isms" are usually derogatory; missionary requires more discussion.

"States rights" adds nothing conservative to "federalism", a 1789 term that we already include. Liberals invokes "states rights" often also.

I'll add all four terms as difficult to classify, pending further discussion. Thanks but we're still looking for a a 1700s term to perfect the geometric fit.--Andy Schlafly 19:38, 16 May 2009 (EDT)

A few more possibilities from the 1700's

economics (1785) division of labor (1770) patriotism (1720)--I know "isms" are often pejorative, but surely this one isn't (regardless of how some people might try to malign it?)

--Benp 20:00, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

patriotism has been on the list. Division of labor is good. Economics can be liberal.--Andy Schlafly 20:56, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

Further suggestions

Two suggestions from Gulliver's Travels, which was published in 1726 and immediately became popular:

• Lilliputian - small-minded or trivial, used to satirise people who are preoccupied with petty squabbles.
• Yahoo - a person who embodies all the worst human characteristics because of a lack of moral or civilising influences.

--CPalmer 07:08, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

Fascinating suggestions! I think Lilliputian is the better of the two. "Yahoo" does not seem to have retained its original meaning, perhaps due to yahoo.com's use of the term.--Andy Schlafly 08:11, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

I agree that Lilliputian is more relevant today. It strikes me as an excellent way to describe many people's obsessions with gossip, people's personal lives, celebrities, entertainment etc while they ignore far more important concerns. It's actually amazing how much of what Swift wrote is even more relevant today than it was when he wrote it.--CPalmer 08:51, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

According to M-W, yahoo as a noun dates to Swift's book in 1726; yahoo as an interjection (synonym for "yippee") dates to 1870. But I disagree with both as conservative terms: Gulliver is extremely rooted in the attitudes of the Enlightenment and the glorification of Reason above all else - hardly conservative IMO. (Yes, I know that the Enlightenment produced some conservative ideas also.) Carillonneur 12:34, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

Carillonner has a point. Swift is regarded as one of the greatest satirists of all time - I am personally a fan of him. You shouldn't adopt his words unless you have read the book from which they come, and understand exactly what they intend to mean. The entire country of Lilliput was a criticism of the trivialities that dominated british and european politics - much of which is lost on a modern reader, unfamiliar with the subject. That the people were tiny was but incidential to the real significence of them, the way in which they would turn the tiniest event or question into a source of great conflict or debate while entirely ignoring far more serious issues, culminating in a war fought over which way up an egg should be placed in an eggcup before breaking it open. If you're looking for a section good for criticising liberals with, I suggest the third country visited by Gulliver: Laputa. The floating island satirises scientific and artistic accomplishment performed for it's own sake without thought to practical benefits, and a community of academics who posess vast knowledge of subjects entirely useless to anyone else. Suricou 12:45, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

Thanks for the insights above. Looks like we'll hold off on both terms, then. That means we're still looking for one more word from the 1700s to perfect the geometric increase in generation of insightful conservative terms for the list. Suggestions are welcome!--Andy Schlafly 14:21, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

Suricou is right about the original context of the satire, but I would contend that 'Lilliputian' applies equally well to any small-minded, petty obsession of the kind that Conservatives strive to rise above, so I'd still consider it a conservative term.--CPalmer 07:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

More 1700's possibilities

Businessman (~1710)

Checks and balances (~1780)

Separation of powers (1748)

--Benp 16:55, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

The latter two are good.--Andy Schlafly 21:02, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

Self-respect (1765)

Don't think "self-respect" is conservative. It may be liberal. "Self-worship" is a big defect with the liberal approach.

Looks like "separation of powers" is the term to perfect the fit to the geometric increase, unless someone objects.--Andy Schlafly 08:38, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Liberal word from 1830

Reactionary - liberal smear-word for conservative ideas.--Woloct 21:05, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

A different take on the Geometric Growth issue

It might be geometric growth, it might be geometric decay too. If say every year one new conservative word is coined, but every hundred years half of the existing conservative words fall out of use, then the words from the 1600's would be half as prevalent as conservative words than the words from the 1700's. Also, why is transistor a conservative word? It doesn;t seem like it is any more politically important than automobile, or cucumber, or steak. --JGHuston 23:28, 31 May 2009 (EDT)

But there is no "decay" in the conservative examples provided. Your point would apply to the liberal terms, which do quickly fall out of use. The conservative insights grow in usage and value.

The transistor is "more politically important" than a steak. The transistor played a central role in national defense systems, such as the Strategic Defense Initiative, a program proposed by conservatives and which helped bring the downfall of communism in the USSR. Moreover, the transistor epitomizes Yankee ingenuity, which is a conservative value.--Andy Schlafly 09:04, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

If my proposal were correct would you expect the decayed examples to be in the list? I would think that would throw off the numbers and we wouldn't see the exponential growth in the numbers. As someone working in the cattle industry I would contest the notion that steak isn't politically important. It is a food source for conservatives by conservatives. It seems like the SDI is built on a whole lot of other technological innovations as well that aren't on the list. --JGHuston 12:34, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

There is exponential growth of conservative words that continue to be useful. The liberal words do fizzle quickly, but the conservative words do not. If you have counterexamples, let's see them. If you say the counterexamples have vanished and cannot be found, then your proposal is non-falsifiable and thus unscientific.

"Transistor" is on the list for several reasons, as I explained here and in the entry. If you can find other examples used for SDI that are comparable, then let's discuss them too.--Andy Schlafly 14:03, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

My point was that it might be decay too, of course we cannot test it unless we find a comparable list from 100 years ago. However, it seems contradictory when you say that we can't test, but our words are increasing and their words are decaying. It seems like both sets would be simultaneously growing and decaying. --JGHuston 15:38, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

Conservative words don't disappear as you suggest. You have access to older works on the internet. I've provided 150 new conservative words that have lasted. Can you identify even 1 that has disappeared?

It doesn't seem to me "like both sets [conservative and liberal] would be simultaneously growing and decaying" the same way. In fact, I'd be shocked if these very different categories behaved identically. One is almost certainly growing and lasting more than the other, and the evidence is that the conservative words are winning this struggle. Difficult for liberals to accept, I'm sure, but the facts don't care if they are accepted or not.--Andy Schlafly 17:15, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

Let me jump in here just to ask, Andy, do you have a dictionary-type definition of "conservative word"? It is impossible to test for geometric growth (or whatever we call it!) if we don't know how to identify a conservative word. AddisonDM 17:20, 1 June 2009 (EDT)

I propose as a working definition that a "conservative word" is one that succinctly expresses a conservative insight that is or was denied, downplayed or otherwise not recognized before its articulation.--Andy Schlafly 15:24, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Good. I think some of the words in the primary list might be better in the downgraded list though. They seem to define "conservative insight" too broadly. For example, "insightful." How exactly is that "conservative"?

Also, in deciding a conservative word should we consider who coined it? Example, Lenin coined "fellow traveler", but nowadays it can be used in a conservative sense, though it was coined by a communist. What do you think there? AddisonDM 16:56, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Good points, but I think these particular terms are defensible. "Insightful" is a word about getting at the truth, something that conservatives actively seek while many liberals prefer deceit or self-worship instead.

As to "fellow traveler," this is one of a few terms coined by one side but which become more useful and popular to the other side. Other examples include "Big Bang" and "politically correct." So while it is enlightening to know who and why a term was coined, there are limits to relying entirely on that source for its usage.--Andy Schlafly 19:04, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Question 2 words

I doubt that "intercontinental" and "silver spoon" are conservative words. "Silver spoon" is materialistic and seems more useful for class warfare. Intercontinental seems straightforward with little more.--Andy Schlafly 19:07, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Well then we should remove them. Some people have just added words without discussing it, and list is rather long anyway. AddisonDM 19:11, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

I think those two could be profitably removed (with the count decreased accordingly). But on a wiki it's usually fine to make edits without prior discussion. It's just as easy to discuss afterward and correct as it is to discuss beforehand.--Andy Schlafly 19:24, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Should they be fully removed or put in "downgraded" terms? AddisonDM 21:22, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Your call. Honestly, I don't see an argument that either one is conservative, so it's fine with me if they are simply removed.--Andy Schlafly 21:50, 8 June 2009 (EDT)

Non-locality?

The description is as follows "1920s action at a distance at the atomic level; even though proven, it is still opposed by those who belief[sic] in relativity and still not recognized by Merriam-Webster" If its not recognized why is it not in the non-recognized list? We also have both productive and productivity, and sustainable and sustainability are split between the liberal and conservative lists. I think we should trim the fat, but didn't want to act before speaking because of how many admin reverts there are in the history. unfortunately I do not have any words to replace tem with, sorry. --CJHallock 12:07, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

I corrected the typo and trimmed "sustainable", but "non-locality" is widely used and accepted, except by those who instead insist on relativity (which perhaps includes you?). The description in this entry is informative and I hope you take it with an open mind.--Andy Schlafly 17:41, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

liberal words

Now I've looked at the list of liberal words and I beleive that these are not liberal:

Hypothesis.

Creationism (Used by everyone. The creation science movement began as "scientific creationism.)

Racism (Liberals misuse this term to criticize people who do not support, say, Obama. But that is a misuse, we should not let their misuse define the word itself.) AddisonDM 13:42, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

Good points about "hypothesis" and "racism", but I think "creationism" was originally and still is used by liberals. As an "-ism" it has a pejorative connotation, and many liberals rely on that connotation in trying to smear others.--Andy Schlafly 14:03, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

Sort of like how creationists like to call evolution "evolutionism" I guess. More importantly, should we remove hypothesis and racism? AddisonDM 14:10, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

Removal sounds good. Please proceed as you suggest.--Andy Schlafly 15:25, 9 June 2009 (EDT)

John Bunyan

I notice we're looking for a term from the seventeenth century. Perhaps a word from Pilgrim's Progress (1678) might be suitable? I suggest "worldly-wiseman", or "slough of despond", which has been used subsequently to describe any instance of the malaise that results from a lack of faith.--CPalmer 11:43, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

We should include something from that immensely influential book, but I don't think the specific terms you identify are unique or popular enough.--Andy Schlafly 14:26, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

A sense of "loyal"?

Another possibility for 17th century: "loyal" with the meaning "1. True to obligations of duty, love, etc.; faithful to plighted troth", which dates to Othello in 1604 (OED). The earlier meanings are from the 16th century and deal with loyalty to a nation or sovereign, but it seems to me that this represents a quite distinct conservative insight. Perhaps add both uses?

Fascinating suggestion! But the earlier uses go back to 1531 and are not that different. The OED may be acting partial to Shakespeare in giving credit.

Also note that 1604 is before the writing of the King James Bible, further disqualifying this suggestion. I think we could go with something like 1610, because by then the King James Bible was virtually complete albeit not yet published, but 1604 is really too early for this list.

Do have any more suggestions? I learned from this one.--Andy Schlafly 17:17, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Maybe "theism" (1678 -- curiously invented after "atheism" which is already a liberal word here!) or "pander" (1616) to describe liberal behavior? I'm just looking through a list of 17th century words for these; I'll keep looking to fill in the hole if you don't think they qualify! Learning lots of strange words along the way... --MarkGall 17:37, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Fascinating! I think "pander" comes closest to qualifying, but hopefully we can do better still.--Andy Schlafly 20:38, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

OK, one more try and I'll get back to actual editing! How about "liberate", 1623? --MarkGall 20:54, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Designer?

Apparently, the word "designer" originated between 1640 and 1650. While it may not have been an important conservative word at the time, I would argue that it has become one since in pointing out the evidence that the universe is designed. --Benp 19:27, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

(Incidentally, I'm learning some really surprising things while looking for words! Apparently, the word "Biblical" didn't come into use until 1780-1790! I was amazed to discover that!) --Benp 19:41, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Slipshod

Hi there, new to the site so I'd like to start out small... how about adding slipshod? It was coined in 1580 and means "shabby, careless, slovenly". A perfect word to describe those who don't help themselves! --Areich 20:46, 12 June 2009 (EDT) truth

Your suggestion sounds good to me too (also new around here!), but I think the list is supposed to start in 1612 now, the year after the publication of the KJV. --MarkGall 20:57, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Ah, I seem to have missed that sentence. I see no reason to limit conservative insight to after 1612, but I won't argue the point --Areich 21:13, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Final word for 1600s

My interest was peaked when I read that this list was only one word away from being in a perfect geometric series. So i went to an online etymology dictionary and picked a few that may fit the bill:

• Sumptuary (c. 1600): The dictionary.com version of this definition seems biased in some aspect, so, in general, it means "to rule one's life based on religious or moral judgements."

• Independent (1611): I was kind of surprised when I found out this wasn't on the list...perhaps there's a reason for that? (Yes, I did see the year, but perhaps since 1611 was the year the KJV was published, maybe...)

• Patronymic (1612): I've always seen it as a conservative value for a woman to take on the name of her husband. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

• Accurate (1612): Maybe if we wanted to be a little facetious...or are we serious?

Here's the dictionary I've been using. Just type in a year and it'll give many results. Hope this helps...Pick a good one!-Zerlock 21:24, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Fascinating suggestions. "Patronymic" is new to me, but I have to agree with your analysis! But all your examples seem slightly shy of the high standard in the entry. I hope we can do better for the final word. Hey, when was "last word" first used?! That's not conservative ....--Andy Schlafly 23:08, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

Question about Methodology

This article makes the assertion that by analyzing "liberal" terms versus "conservative" terms, one can conclude that conservatism is on the rise. Let me emphasize that I do not dispute this notion. I do feel, however, that as it is written now the assertion has not been rigorously proven. I have the following concerns:

1. What is the definition of a "Conservative Word"? What is the definition of a "Liberal Word"? It is important to explicitly define those two terms if we are going to claim that there are more "Conservative Words" than "Liberal Words". For example, is a "Conservative Word" a word that was coined by a conservative, or is it one that has been used to describe conservative ideology, or is it one used to disparage conservatives by non-conservatives? Is a word conservative if it was originally meant to be conservative or if it was not originally intended to have an ideology but later acquired one?

2. There are certain words like "insightful" that do not seem to be related to any ideology. Why are such words classified as "conservative"? Likewise, what does cryptography have to do with conservatism? One more example: the "Big Bang" is simply the currently accepted scientific theory about how the universe began. How can a scientific theory have an ideology?

3. How can we be sure that we have counted every word in each category? Is it possible that we spent more time searching for words in one of the two categories, and as a result that category has more words than the other?

4. It is claimed that conservative words are of higher quality than liberal ones. What metric is used to assess the "quality" of a word?

I am not sure if the above questions are answerable. If they are, however, then we come to the most important point:

5. After clarifying the first three points, let's say we determine that there are more "Conservative Words" than "Liberal Words" (or the other way around). Is it possible to conclude that an ideology is on the rise simply by looking at the rate of change of words associated with that ideology.

One more concern:

6. I feel that we are studying this problem deductively when we should be studying it inductively. Specifically, we are trying to prove that conservative words fit into a geometric ratio - we are starting with a conclusion some people wish to find, and then we are searching for evidence to fit it. I am skeptical of this - it would probably be better to collect all the data first and THEN analyze the data for conclusions, a more empirical method that will serve this essay better.

I hope that these four questions provoke a discourse. Over the next day or so, I will attempt to give my own answer to what is a "Conservative Word" and what is a "Liberal Word." Please do not construe this message as an attempt to attack this essay; rather, I wish to help make it more rigorous, something for which we should all strive! I am not saying that I dispute the notion that conservatism is on the rise - I merely doubt that this is an effective way of proving that fact.

If you disagree with any of my points, I am very open to hearing your opinion. My goal is to objectively study the growth rate of ideological words; any advice you can contribute would be immensely appreciated. Khamilton 21:28, 12 June 2009 (EDT)

REPLY:

Q1. What is the definition of a "Conservative Word"? What is the definition of a "Liberal Word"? It is important to explicitly define those two terms if we are going to claim that there are more "Conservative Words" than "Liberal Words". For example, is a "Conservative Word" a word that was coined by a conservative, or is it one that has been used to describe conservative ideology, or is it one used to disparage conservatives by non-conservatives? Is a word conservative if it was originally meant to be conservative or if it was not originally intended to have an ideology but later acquired one?

ANSWER: The meaning is obvious enough. A conservative word is one that captures and conveys a conservative insight. There is no definitional problem here. There are over 150 examples and the vast majority can hardly be disputed.

Q2. There are certain words like "insightful" that do not seem to be related to any ideology. Why are such words classified as "conservative"? Likewise, what does cryptography have to do with conservatism? One more example: the "Big Bang" is simply the currently accepted scientific theory about how the universe began. How can a scientific theory have an ideology?

ANSWER: Science obviously can be ideological. Witness "global warming" and "evolution". As to your other examples, I'll try to explain them better in the comments if desired. I agree that a few are debatable, but the vast majority are not.

Q3. How can we be sure that we have counted every word in each category? Is it possible that we spent more time searching for words in one of the two categories, and as a result that category has more words than the other?

ANSWER: If the occurrence were flat or declining, it would be virtually impossible to generate a geometric progression. This geometric progression occurred without expecting it to happen.

Q4. It is claimed that conservative words are of higher quality than liberal ones. What metric is used to assess the "quality" of a word?

ANSWER: The same as the quality of a car or laptop or tennis racket: its durability, its effectiveness, and its helpfulness for success.

Q5. After clarifying the first three points, let's say we determine that there are more "Conservative Words" than "Liberal Words" (or the other way around). Is it possible to conclude that an ideology is on the rise simply by looking at the rate of change of words associated with that ideology.

ANSWER: I can't think of a better indicator. Can you?

Q6. I feel that we are studying this problem deductively when we should be studying it inductively. Specifically, we are trying to prove that conservative words fit into a geometric ratio - we are starting with a conclusion some people wish to find, and then we are searching for evidence to fit it. I am skeptical of this - it would probably be better to collect all the data first and THEN analyze the data for conclusions, a more empirical method that will serve this essay better.

ANSWER: We did begin without trying to fit the data to any curve. Now the only fit is to perfection. That may distort the level of perfection, but the underlying geometric progression is unmistakable.

Thanks for your questions. Godspeed and I hope you really do have an open mind about this.--Andy Schlafly 23:06, 12 June 2009 (EDT)