Difference between revisions of "Talk:Examples of Bias in Wikipedia"

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Talk:Examples of Bias in Wikipedia/Archive2
Talk:Examples of Bias in Wikipedia/Archive3
Talk:Examples of Bias in Wikipedia/Archive4
Talk:Examples of Bias in Wikipedia/Archive5

Johnny Appleseed

Yeah, I just read the article at Wikipedia, and I've not seen anything along the bias that this refers to. The story about the preacher was showing that Johnny was very much a person who took his Christian beliefs very seriously. The date of his death is officially contested and this contention is mentioned in the article. There is nothing that smacks of "bias" as this page indicates. I will take out Johnny Appleseed in 24 hrs if there is no argument. ChairmanMeow 12:44, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

Wikipedia has responded to a number of our examples of bias after we have presented them. That does not mean that we cannot mention past incidents as examples of the general culture and outlook of Wikipedia. DanH 12:49, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

#1

Again, this isn't bias. If it had been an FA, that would have been one thing, but GA is not quite the same level of recognition. This list is getting more and more ludicrous. --Liπus the Turbogeek^{(contact me)} 21:00, 8 April 2007 (EDT)

Don't follow you here, Linus the Turbogeek. But can I call on you if I have technical computer questions? :-) A good Easter to you.--Aschlafly 21:48, 8 April 2007 (EDT)

Um… you can't call me, but feel free to send me e-mail. A happy Easter to yourself as well. --Liπus the Turbogeek^{(contact me)} 20:04, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Liberal bias

The list contains still the statement that "Wikipedia is six times more liberal than the American public", which still makes every statistician frown at conservapedia as soon as he looks where we get the data for Wikipedia from. A self-selected sample, with 131 categories, from which respondents can choose as many as they like, is compared to a Harris poll.

The other innovation of this example of Wikipedia bias is the definition of liberal bias; it now even has its own article as Liberal Quotient. This article will make every mathematician frown, and it demonstrates that LQ is highly confusing. The article defines the LQ as Liberals/Conservatives, which has its own problems, but the illustrative part is that the article does not even once uses the definition of LQ correctly. None of the LQs mentioned in the article for particular groups, such as journalists, uses LQ correctly. It was never correct since it was created by Aschlafly. And if you look at the talk page you'll notice that most editors aren't able to apply the definition correctly either.

My suggestions would be 1) get a solid data base, since it it obviously a violation of good practice in statistics. 2) use a definition of liberal bias that people understand, now that it has been demonstrated, that the current definition is poorly understood. Order 9 April, 18:40 (AEST)

In addition, 3:1/1:2≠6. --Liπus the Turbogeek^{(contact me)} 20:07, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Actually 3/(1/2) is 6. This is the correct part of it. You proabably mean 75%/33%? That is indeed something different and 225%. This just illustrates that the Liberal quotient is plain confusing. Order 11 April, 11:00 (AEST)

The Deluge criticism

As a Christian I can understand the criticism in which the Great Flood is treated as a piece of myth, or if you go to the Great Flood it will take you to the Deluge section: but what you have to realise is that the Great Flood can be seen in nearly all mythologies, for example, Dylan in Welsh and Atlantis in Greek. Therefore, the Noah account is part of wider scope, yet, it can be said that the Great Flood in all cultures could be the account of the same flood that Noah escaped in. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by James M Hayes (talk)

James, have you seen Conservapedia's article on the Great Flood? It covers the sorts of things you talk about, without using the word "myth" (or any derivative) at all (except in the external links). Philip J. Rayment 12:03, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

Hmmm...

"Wikipedia removed and permanently blocked a page identifying its many biases." OK, but this page cannot be edited. Isn't that just as bad? Sterile 16:16, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Nooooo. this is entirely different in a way, I'm unable to explain to you. --Cgday 16:17, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

A page that has been removed cannot be read, this one can. That's a pretty obvious difference, I would think, and one that I had no difficulty explaining. Philip J. Rayment 22:30, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Wasn't Conservapedia's Examples of Bias in Conservapedia removed as well? Myk 23:37, 9 April 2007 (EDT)

Hmmm, yes there was such an article that was deleted. But it was removed on the grounds that it was a rant with obscenities. Philip J. Rayment 01:20, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

And then deleted and then protected against further re-creation? Myk 01:40, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

It was created and deleted twice (with the second version apparently being a copy of the first version), so presumably it was thought prudent to prevent the same thing being done over and over. Philip J. Rayment 01:49, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Myk, we allow a great deal of criticism of our site here, far more than Wikipedia allows. I was not involved in the deletion of that particular entry but over time, as this site becomes more stable and secure against vandalism, that page can be reopened just as others have been.--Aschlafly 02:09, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Wikipedia allows unlimited criticism. It contains an article about Conservapedia that includes many of Conservapedia's criticisms of wikipedia. It even has a 106-source article entitled "Criticism of Wikipedia" that Wikipedia users wrote themselves. I criticized this article on this talk page, and my comment (along with many others) was deleted. If you aren't a liar, Aschlafly, then you are breathtakingly delusional. It would have been just as easy to remove the obscenities then protect the article.--Mechrobioticon 23:43, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

The "Criticism of Wikipedia" entry is a self-serving joke that censors any real criticism. I put in factual statements of bias in the Wikipedia and my factual, respectful statements were distorted and then censored.--Aschlafly 00:57, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

How many sources does this page cite? It would appear wikipedia is more exhaustive in criticizing themselves than Conservapedia is at criticizing Wikipedia.--Mechrobioticon 00:20, 29 April 2007 (EDT)

Wow, is that the test you're proposing? Simply count the number of citations, no matter what they say? That does seem consistent with Wikipedia's philosophy. As shown by the content page here, Wikipedia makes a factual claim and then provides a citation that actually fails to support the claim at all.--Aschlafly 01:43, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Which has sometimes occurred at Conservapedia as well, of course... Dpbsmith 16:47, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Hasn't that logic been used before on CP? The Theory of Evolution article is touted as being the best because it gets so many hits and has so many citations, but if you took a second to read the talk page you'd see otherwise. I don't know what "factual" statements Andy added, but if they're anything like the bias listed here, of course they were removed since they don't meet the mainstream definition of bias. Jrssr5 16:10, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

I'm a specialist in analyzing and remedying bias. Please bring any examples to my attention. --Ed Poor 12:34, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

"Wikipedia is six times as liberal"

Isn't it time to do something about this? Whether or not the numbers are correct isn't for me to say, but if there are twice as many conservatives as liberals in the US, but three times as many liberals as conservatives on Wikipedia, then there must be about 2.27 times as many liberals on Wiki as in the US, not 6. The statement as it stands suggests that we don't know basic math, and I for one find that slightly embarrassing. --AKjeldsen 12:00, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

Quiet you fool! Don't you realize that if you argue with ASchlafly's math that it means you're wrong about everything? If he says that the Wikipedia is 108% liberal then it must be so!--Rex Mundane 15:26, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

It's approx. 2.25, and that's not how "liberal bias" is defined. Stop being an idiot, Aschlafly. --Hacker^{(Write some code • Support my RfA)} 20:29, 26 April 2007 (EDT)

You can think about it this way. If your data is correct, then if you were to walk down the street and grab 6 people, statistically you should get 2 liberals and 4 conservatives. At wikipedia, you should get 1.5 conservatives (statistically speaking) and 4.5 liberals. 1.5 times 3 equals 4.5, and 1.5 plus 4.5 equals 6. Divide 4.5 by 2, and you get 2.25. And Hacker's right, "bias" refers to the articles themselves, not to who wrote them. Being mostly composed of liberals is not an example of bias.--Mechrobioticon 00:06, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Oh, I'm going to be really really really sorry I ever mentioned this, but you can also think of it this way.

Accept for argument Andrew Schlafly's assumptions—(which I most bodaciously do not accept)—that America is conservative, 2:1 and that Wikipedia is liberal, 3:1. Now, imagine conservatives at Wikipedia encircled by and trying to fight off liberals, and ask: for every pair of conservatives, how many liberals on average must they vanquish in order to prevail? The answer is every pair of conservatives needs to subdue six liberals. Now ask the same question for America. Here, the answer is that every pair of conservatives only needs to dispatch one liberal. Ergo, at Wikipedia the conservatives would need to work six times as hard. QED. Dpbsmith 11:38, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

I can't read Andy's mind, but I doubt that is how he arrived at his magic number of 6. Creative thinking though!! Jrssr5 16:21, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

#47

Wikipedia's errors spill undetected into newspapers. A Wikipedia entry falsely stated that Rutgers was once invited to join the Ivy League. Although that false statement was eventually removed from Wikipedia, it was not removed before the Daily News relied on it in [a] story

What does this have to do with any bias on the part of Wikipedia, and more to the point, in what way is any such bias shown, in this case, liberal? --Olly 05:52, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Newspapers are known to have a liberal bias also, and hence the copying from the liberal Wikipedia is noteworthy.--Aschlafly 16:54, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

Um, no. Some newspapers lean left, but there are plenty of newspapers that endorse a conservative position. Quite a few (if not most) of the papers in my area are pretty conservative actually. ColinR^talk 16:59, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

What does any liberal bias in the written press (LOL) have to do with whether Wikipedia has a liberal bias or not? Number 47 simply is not an example of bias in wikipedia. You may think it's "noteworthy" but so what? It's listed as an example of bias in Wikipedia. I think that counts as deceit.--Olly 09:59, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

#41

That shouldn't be there, surely, as it is simply someone saying Wikipedia is biased, rather than an actual example of bias. --Protocletos 14:41, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

It quotes an insightful remark by an authority. That's what good encyclopedias do.--Aschlafly 16:54, 30 April 2007 (EDT)

I don't dispute this, but the fact remains that it's not actually an example of bias. --Protocletos 11:29, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

What the heck…?

I'm sorry about this, and I'll get to work on MediaWiki and stay out of trouble for a while after I have my say, but how is criticism of articles without a worldwide viewpoint a "bias"? Wikipedia is a worldwide project, and yes, America is not the only English-speaking country around, so it can't claim ownership of even the English edition. --Liπus the Turbohacker^{(contact me)} 13:09, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

I think the criticism means that Wikipedia places an excessive emphasize on the "worldwide viewpoint", often to the exclusion of US views such as conservatism. It's one thing to say what everyone in the world thinks, another to try to homogenize it into one "consensus" view. (See pluralism vs. particularism - or until those are written, multiculturalism.) --Ed Poor 13:20, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Suggested edit

Could globalist be linked to Globalism. Has that anything to do with Globalization? Auld Nick 13:16, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Link added. Thanks and Godspeed to you.--Aschlafly 14:42, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Misunderstanding of Wikipedia rules

It saddens me to see that people feel that it is OK to criticize a project that they have not even read most of the rules of. Yes, Wikipedia says that it is a free encyclopedia that anybody can edit, and is NPOV. Of course it is not NPOV yet, but someday could be. Most of these criticisms (well over 70%) are based on ignorance of Wikipedia rules. There are 42 policies and guidelines on Wikipedia, and I doubt most people who are writing these criticisms have bothered to read any of those, except for the introduction. And the unbelievable hypocrisy of deleting and protecting a page called Examples of Bias in Conservapedia is sickening. So yes, if anybody was to go and read the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia, they will see that these criticisms are completely unfounded (well, most of 'em). --Hojimachong^talk 14:01, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Hoji, the criticisms are based on the results, and the Wikipedia rules really have very little to do with this. The rules themselves encourage bias (e.g., "NPOV" towards terrorists) or the rules may be applied against conservative edits (e.g., initially against the entry on Conservapedia). And then there are the criticisms about the rules don't say, such as the Wikipedia rules do not prohibit obscenity, gossip, or pretending liberal opinion is fact.

A study of bias doesn't really care what the rules or cause is. The study is about the results. But thanks for your comments and Lord bless you for your efforts on Wikipedia and here.--Aschlafly 14:30, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

And, ignorance is bliss ... it's much easier to blindly criticize something instead of trying to study/investigate the reasons. Jrssr5 15:04, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Apparently not easy enough, as some people (including Jimmy Wales himself) still pretend that Wikipedia does not have bias.--Aschlafly 15:26, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

Time for my response (sigh); First of all, Jimmy Wales admits that it has a bias; he would be ignorant not to. But it is obvious that articles are much better now than they were a year or two ago. It's clear that great strides have been made towards not having a noticeable bias. And you say criticism is based on results? The stated goals of a project dictate what will be considered "good" and "bad", and most of the criticisms here are empty in their factual backing. Also, the "NPOV" towards terrorists is more neutral than calling them just "terrorists", no? Groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, LTTE, etc. aren't usually referred to as "terrorist", because they are seen as legitimate freedom fighters by huge chunks of the Arabic and Western world.

Groups like al-Qaeda are still described as terrorist organizations in the introduction, since a larger group of legitimate sources consider them to be terrorists.

And "pretending liberal opinion is fact"; Liberal opinion is rarely represented as fact, but liberal reports with factual backing is reported with more legitimacy. That's what the WP:RS guideline exists, to make sure reliable sources are used. I think you mean liberal pontification on facts represented as facts; that's what WP:CSB is trying to fix. And may I refer you to look at our very own Theory of evolution article, where there are 14 blockquotes from sources who have very little authority to be talking about evolution. Let us remember that 99.84% of scientists support the evolutionary theory. How are those 14 blockquotes, along with many, many, many AiG references not "conservative opinion is fact"? --Hojimachong^talk 16:23, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

What study? User:Order May 14.

Hojimachong, the problem here is that wikipedia only "officially" follows the principles of neutrality , "No original research" and "reliable sources". The reality is that all those "policies" are little more than unenforced facades (since when do left - wing propaganda rags like the New-York times, the Guardian and the rest of them count as non-partisan or reliable?). Wikipedia provides the mechanism by which extremist cabals (mostly of the far-left persuasion) can infest articles related to politics, religion, history and spirituality with a very partisan far-left bent, and they aggressively edit-war (even recruit admins to their revert-gangs and persuade them to abuse their powers in the gangs' favor). While the technical articles on wikipedia may not be so biased (except for the articles on so-called "evolution", which is now a politicized issue), the articles on all the topics I mentioned suffer from a systemic bias hidden between the lines of apparent neutrality. The way I see it, conservapedia takes a different and more honest approach, addressing systemic bias by admitting to it and working within it's constraints. That is far more intellectually honest than the left-wing nutcases on wikipedia. Giskard Reventlov 00:57, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Jewish encyclopedia

There's no need for scare quotes around the Jewish encyclopedia, it just looks like we're either ignorant or accusing Wikipedia of being anti-semitic. The Jewish encyclopedia is a real work, and often cited for things relating to Judaism. link to the Jewish encyclopedia. RDre 12:17, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

The quotation is accurate. The quotation marks inform the reader that the term was expressly used by Wikipedia. I don't see how removing the quotes would be more informative or more accurate. Wikipedia is specifically and expressly complaining about its own use of "the Jewish Encyclopedia."--Aschlafly 13:13, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

You should remove the quote marks. They are not found in the Wikipedia link, and as the earlier poster has already noted, the Jewish Encyclopedia is real. Nor was Wikipedia targeting Judeo-Christian tradition. The passage in question dealt with the wholesale copying of information from works that have entered the public domain--27102340 13:20, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

This new entry seems to imply that American lives are more important than the eyes of anybody else in this world. What is bad about trying to get more coverage on articles which deal with the deaths of many more people? --Hojimachong^talk 18:03, 15 May 2007 (EDT)

I agree with Hoji. Why is point 1 on this list phrased as if to say that Conservapedia believes the death of 3000 Americans is more important than the deaths of 400,000 Sudanese? Is that really the Conservative perspective?

In support of RDre and 27102340, how about replacing ...Christian encyclopedias and "the Jewish Encyclopedia." with the full list 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, the Catholic Encyclopedia, the Nuttall Encyclopaedia, the Jewish Encyclopedia, and other older encyclopedic works? I don't know if the 1911 EB was regarded as a "Christian encyclopedia" at the time, or now. --Scott 08:26, 18 May 2007 (EDT)

I considered that replacement, but most people don't realize that the Nutall Encyclopedia and the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica were Christian encyclopedias.--Aschlafly 14:51, 20 May 2007 (EDT)

Proposed cahnge to #23

Can we change #23 to this

"Edits to include facts against the theory of evolution are almost immediately censored. To remove the problem of ias in censorship in Conservapedia edits to the theory of evolution page aren't allowed in the first place."

Or maybe just delete it?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Igor nz (talk)

Chip Berlet

I think perhaps the article should elaborate more on the Chip Berlet bias thing, particularly since Berlet himself has a wikipedia account, and aggressively edit-wars in tandem with extremist leftist cabals on wikipedia (see his contribs). Giskard Reventlov 00:45, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Interesting. Please tell me more, perhaps with some examples. Thanks and Godspeed to you.--Aschlafly 00:51, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Well there certainly seems to be a lot of undue emphasis on Berlet's writings on wikipedia, which are widespread (particularly his pet peeves like Dominionism). His primary emphasis on wp seems to be against the LaRouche types, but he frequently whitewashes extremism on the part of the left by mischeviously attributing it to the right. For instance, in New Anti-semitism he blames the leftist antisemitism on some imagined association between the extremist left and the far-right movements in the United States, an assertion that is entirely without foundation (and not a view widely held by numerous advocacy groups combating left wing antisemitism, such as the Stephen Roth center and others). Plus, left-wing antisemitism is a global phenomenon, and it amuses me to think how the prevalence of antisemitism of the Communist Party of India (say) would connect to some Neo-Nazi skinheads.

I'm sure there are other examples if people dig deep enough. Giskard Reventlov 01:25, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Globalize?

May I suggest that we globalize our focus just a tad here? The extremist liberal and anti-conservative bias of wikipedia is relevant to the politics of numerous countries in Europe and Asia as well as the United States. admittedly the problems there are less high-profile than the US-related articles, but the liberal bias in many non US-related articles are far more extreme and frequently delves into partisan references, racialist stereotyping and scapegoating, rabid support for Islamism, and other such positions characteristic of the far-left radicals.Giskard Reventlov 00:45, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Yes, that is a superb point. I've suspected as much, because often there will be less resistance to the bias in non-US articles. Lord willing, let's expose this bias and please post specific examples here that I can incorporate in the entry. Thanks.--Aschlafly 00:53, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

Whinny Article

Wow, what a whinny article. It has almost no truth to it, and most of it is greatly exagerated in the most obscene way. It needs to be rewritten or completely removed in my opinion.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by MrDubya (talk)

• Ahhh, shut up. --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 01:41, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

Notice how many people make sweeping criticisms, but don't offer any specific problem that needs fixing? Philip J. Rayment 04:18, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

• Notice how cranky Karajou and TK made it a quiet evening, Philip? 6 hours of quiet. If you are still around in another couple of hours, the user might need another time out, I am thinking..... --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 04:35, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

All those examples of bias on the content page, and "MrDubya" (what a ridiculous user id.) can't find a single error!--Aschlafly 09:52, 2 June 2007 (EDT)