Difference between revisions of "Talk:Founding Fathers quotes that mention God"

Revision as of 17:20, June 19, 2017

deletions

I really don't trust a blog that sources anti-Christian material to deny "There is no king but Jesus." Second, the reasoning for removing Penn as not a founding father, he died before the revolution?--Jpatt 23:40, 19 July 2016 (EDT)

Generally, the term "Founding Fathers" is used to refer to the Revolutionary generation, right? Those statesmen and and generals, like John and Samuel Adams, George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, etc, who fought during the Revolution or were involved in US independence. William Penn founded Pennsylvania and was active in the settlement of the country, but he died 60 years before the Revolutionary War, and I wouldn't consider him a "founding father", anymore than I would William Bradford or John Smith. Founding Great grandfather, maybe. I don't think he should be included, but obviously, this is a judgement call, and I don't feel strongly enough about it to mind that much if you put the quote back/.

The thing with the first quote, even if you don't trust the blog, the cite for the "We have no king but Jesus" quote is an unsourced secondary document, and one that doesn't even discuss the quote; just one of a grabbag of Christian sounding statements. So where are they getting it from? How do we know the quote is reliable? That's distinct from some of the other quotes on the page. We can be sure, for instance, that Robert Morris said "Religion is the solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man towards God.", because that comes from an original source; a work written by Morris himself. So what's the original source for the No King but Jesus quote?

I'm not sure that the blog is sourcing anti-Christian material, really. Its sources are Eades Home Ministry, Charles Jennings, John Ashcroft, Frank Warren Coburn, Rev. Clark, and Sir Richard Sutton. It might use anti-Christian material on other pages, I'm not sure. But regardless, it seems like if we're going to make a quote, we should support it. It seems like there's this tendency all over these days to find stuff that already agrees with us, and then just use it, not worrying about whether its true or not. But I know you're on Conservapedia because you worry about the truth, and you worry about what's real or not; that seems like it is, or should be, at least, the mission of Conservapedia, and it weakens the project, I think, when we allow ourselves to become to credulous, or when we shade the truth to fit our biases. That's not why I'm here, and I'm pretty sure it's not why you're here either.--Whizkid (talk) 00:12, 20 July 2016 (EDT)

So many quotes are proven fabrications hence I try to find them in published works instead of say brainyquote. I am undecided on Penn. I would say he is a 17 century Founding Father who had enormous impact on the later formed Continental Congress. Though he wasn't an honorary citizen of the Republic until 1980.--Jpatt 06:43, 20 July 2016 (EDT)

Founding Fathers as devout Christians

The Founding fathers where not actually devout Christians. They were actually deist,or at least Christian deist. Yes indeed they have made quotes about God and the Bible but at the same time,some of them made quotes that are critical of Christianity.

Refer to these quotes:

"The United States is not in any sense founded on Christianity ". John Adams

"Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone on man." Thomas Jefferson

You must admit that most of them were actually deist.

WRONG. First, you're taking those quotes out of context, like so many others have done. Second, you never bothered to read what the Founders had to say, beyond those quotes. As homework, you're going to read the letters, speeches, and writings of both Thomas Jefferson and John Adams - completely, and at least one biography by an author who personally knew both. Karajou (talk) 20:23, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

The problem with that claim, Coolguy, is that most of them weren't.

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible." - George Washington

"Make sure you are doing what God wants you to do---then do it with all your strength." - George Washington

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God?

That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event." - Thomas Jefferson

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped." - Benjamin Franklin

The list can go on and on. Those who pray, study the word, and seek to do God's will, trusting in Him always to do what is best should not be called deists. This mostly, if not entirely, a claim invented in revisionist history. --David B ^(TALK) 20:26, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

I'd guess that, like others of his type who favor revisionist history, Coolguy got his info on the Founding Fathers from the usual liberal-biased sites. Northwest (talk) 21:08, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

Each Founding Father listed on this site has their religious affiliation under their photo. All Christ followers.--Jpatt 21:17, 3 April 2017 (EDT)

Of course, this was probably a (successful) trolling attempt, but oh well. Northwest, probably s/he got the info from Wikipedia, or at least those who taught him/her did. --David B ^(TALK) 22:18, 3 April 2017‎ (EDT)

There are more quotes they made about religion:

John Adams:

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."

George Washington:

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." -- letter to Edward Newenham, 1792

Benjamin Franklin:

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Thomas Jefferson:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

“Christianity is the most perverted system ever shone to man.”

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." letter to his nephew,Peter Carr,August 10,1787

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.”

The Treaty of Tripoli:

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mohammedan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever interrupt the harmony existing between the two countries." signed by John Adams in 1797.

Whether they were deist or Christian you must realize that America was founded as a secular nation and Christianity was never the official religion. If America was really founded on Christianity, why is Christianity and morality declining in America today? I mean why is prayer banned in public schools.

If you still really think that America is or was a Christian nation, we must not forget the atrocities that America committed such as the slavery of the African people, the civil war,racism, and George Washington was nicknamed by the Iroquois tribe and the language roughly translates to “Town Destroyer” or “Devourer of Villages.” That probably does not prove that Washington was a humble or "God-fearing" Christian since Washington destroyed their homes and had genocidal tendencies. A true "God-fearing" Christian Would never commit such a thing since he must be humble and not seek power. A true Christian nation would never commit such atrocities like slavery and genocide(since it happened Native Americans which was known as The California Indian Genocide 1846 and 1870). A true Christian nation would treat and will have always treat all ethnic group equally and fairly and will always strictly adhere to Biblical principles(not heading for decline of Christianity and Moral Values) and would never seek dominance, power, or conquer the lands that originally belonged the people(like America one did).

It seems though that the used to be devout Christians and later became deist and where are the fully aware of the bloodshed and atrocities that Christianity committed. Or it seemed that they used to be devout Christians,but their doubts had taken over and later became deist. --Unsigned comment by User:(Coolguy)

Most of these quotes don't mention God. So user:Coolguy's additions here are just an attempt to show that we were never a Christian nation. The Pilgrims fled England due to religious persecution, it's was the King's mandated religion or punished. So they came to America. Did they come to America to practice Buddhism, Hindu, Taoism, Islam, Judaism, etc? The Pilgrims came here to practice Christianity. The Christian church, in all its denominations, has been here since the beginning. A church was in is every town since its founding. The government that formed was a government of Christian men who were fervent believers in Christ Almighty. Did they create a theocracy? Nope. It doesn't mean they were anti-Christian or anti-religion as much as user:Coolguy attempts to persuade. --Jpatt 19:35, 21 April 2017 (EDT)