Difference between revisions of "Talk:Gardasil"

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(The Unconsidered Scenario)
(The Unconsidered Scenario)
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::::I'll move on to other topics, so feel free to have the last word on this.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 10:23, 14 January 2009 (EST)
::::I'll move on to other topics, so feel free to have the last word on this.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 10:23, 14 January 2009 (EST)
::::: It would be perfectly simple to decrease drastically the number of rapes (and thus eliminate almost completely the need for vaccinations, assuming abstinence is practised) if some of the measures advocated on this site were implemented nationwide. For example, if gun control were relaxed and more people carried firearms, I daresay your average rapist would feel less confident about his ability to successfully overpower his victim. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 15:01, 14 January 2009 (EST)
::::: It would be perfectly simple to decrease drastically the number of rapes (and thus eliminate almost completely the need for vaccinations, assuming abstinence is practised) if some of the measures advocated on this site were implemented nationwide. For example, if gun control were relaxed and more people carried firearms, I daresay your average rapist would feel less confident about his ability to successfully overpower his victim. [[User:ETrundel|ETrundel]] 15:01, 14 January 2009 (EST)
:::::That might help if life were simple and ideal, but in reality many rape victims are minors, and the source above mentions over 400,000 cases of prison rape annually.  Arming the first group is not a good idea, and the second group goes without saying.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 15:10, 14 January 2009 (EST)
::::::That might help if life were simple and ideal, but in reality many rape victims are minors, and the source above mentions over 400,000 cases of prison rape annually.  Arming the first group is not a good idea, and the second group goes without saying.  --[[User:DinsdaleP|DinsdaleP]] 15:10, 14 January 2009 (EST)
==Reversion of "Death and Paralysis" Association==
==Reversion of "Death and Paralysis" Association==

Revision as of 20:16, January 14, 2009


Favorite soundbite from televised debates 2/4-2/5: "This is about corporate welfare for Merck and making guinea pigs of Texas school girls."

The proposed HPV vaccine mandate uses 11-year-old school girls as guinea pigs for Merck. “HPV” really means “Help Pay for Vioxx,” since Merck is seeking state laws to give it billions of dollars in new revenue. Drug-industry analyst Steve Brozak of W.B.B. Securities projected sales of this vaccine to be billions if states require it. “I could not think of a bigger boost” to Merck, he said.

But this vaccine is a loser. Michigan recently rejected Merck’s attempt for a state mandate there. Indiana rebuffed Merck’s attempt there. Maryland refused to mandate this vaccine. The Texas legislature opposes imposing this vaccine by mandate. Only after Merck hired Texas Governor Rick Perry’s former chief-of-staff, and funded the “Women in Government” group to advance Merck’s agenda, did the Texas Governor bypass the legislature in a move of dubious legality. Follow the money.

This new vaccine hs not been shown to prevent a single case of cancer. Merck, in its own package insert, does not claim that this vaccine lasts more than a few years. The average age of cervical cancer is 48. There is no evidence giving this vaccine to an 11-year-old will protect against a condition 37 years later. Not even Merck makes that claim.

Merck wants the states to require purchase of its vaccine, and kids can feel free to have sex. Only in the fine print do we learn that no long term benefits or risks of this vaccine have even been tested. Merck did not even test if this vaccine causes cancer.

Don’t be fooled by this drug company chicanery. Follow the money and see that this vaccine is great for Merck and bad for the rest of us. It costs $360 for the shots alone, and up to $1000 when administrative fees and follow-up office visits are included, particularly when there is an adverse reaction.

This controversial vaccine was approved only about eight months ago, based on testing of perhaps only a few hundred young girls. Do not make guinea pigs out of all our children. Parents who want to give this to their children can already do so. This vaccine does not prevent any diseases contagious at school and should not be used as a condition of entering school. It should not be forced on our children.

Well, honestly. The vaccine only serves to protect. A good Christian girl will stick to her morals and won't go out having sex because of this vaccine, and a girl who had already planned on having sex would benefit from this, because it protects them. Do you feel inclined to step on a rusty nail after you get a tetanis booster? --Hojimachong 18:38, 8 March 2007 (EST)
please see the discussion in ASchafly's thread between him and me. I have in good faith attempted to contribute valuable, moral information here, but he is questioning my credentials in bad faith. I hope he reads up a little and stops the attacks. Palmd001 16:20, 16 March 2007 (EDT)
Palmd0001, your recent edit was unsupported and false. See here.--Aschlafly 18:23, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

My edits are, of course, completely supported, not false, cited, and written by an expert (me) which is more than I can say for much else here after my little discussion with you [2][link title] Any fair and balanced observer will see that you have no interest in the truth. I had really hoped otherwise.

Your potential friend, Peter Palmd001 20:30, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

Dave, thank you for the NEJM citation. It will probably not last.Palmd001 20:46, 16 March 2007 (EDT)
No problem. I am anticipating the inevitable edit followed by "The New England Journal of Medicine is not a valid source" statement.--Dave3172 21:23, 16 March 2007 (EDT)


There is a problem, at the least, with the phrasing regarding abstinence. People abstaining from sex do not have sexual partners. This should be fixed or removed. DrSandstone 14:52, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

Before making major revisions..

Consider discussing here...even if you are the boss.--PalMDtalk 16:56, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Or,on the other hand, make unilateral controversial changes. --PalMDtalk 16:58, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

The HPV vaccine does not protect against other sexually transmitted diseases (e.g., chlamydia, herpes, hepatitis, trichomoniasis, gonorrhea, syphilis, HIV, AIDS, etc.)

This seems like a slightly bizarre comment. Yes, I suppose it is accurate as far as it goes, but what's the point? Why stop there? Why not also add that it does not protect against the common cold, pneumonia, leukaemia, ingrowing toenails and being run over by a bus? It's a vaccine against HPV, not all STDs. Chrysogonus 17:14, 10 April 2007 (EDT)

Because that doesn't assist the ideological bent of said statement.--Dave3172 11:33, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

The reason is that they do not want to think that it is a vaccine that prevents all STDs and should use whatever protection they choose to use. It's saying that it does not guarantee "safe sex." Midnus

Article Title

This article should be moved to "Gardasil," since most of it refers specifically to that vaccine. Gardasil and HPV Vaccine might be synonymous now, but they won't be when/if Cervarix is approved.--All Fish Welcome 17:04, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Reverted Liberal Bias

Liberal bias and some uncritical repetitions of vaccine manufacturer claims were reverted. Abstinence protects against this disease at no cost, and there is no reason to believe the self-interested claims by the manufacturer about safety and efficacy of the vaccine, particularly when researchers themselves have expressed criticisms of attempts to make it mandatory.--Aschlafly 01:19, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Is it reasonable to expect that all teenagers will abstain from sex until marriage? --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğtalk 01:22, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
Furthermore, the researchers criticized making it mandatory, they didn't criticize any of the other claims. At minimum, those claims should be acknowledged. JoshuaZ 01:25, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
The claims about the safety and efficacy of the vaccine aren't being made exclusively by the manufacturer. They're being made by the CDC, New England Journal of Medicine, and the Journal of the American Medical Association. These are peer-reviewed publications, and can't just be hand-waved away as "liberal bias." It seems to me, Andy, that anything you disagree with automatically becomes liberal bias. There is only one link to information directly from the manufacturer in the article, and that is to point to the manufacturer's packaging insert. It is not used to back up any of the claims about efficacy or safety. JohnSmith 01:54, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
If we are going to change In June 2006, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first HPV vaccine based on observance of elevated antibody levels in a double blind clinical trial involving over 20,000 subjects. [1] to In June 2006, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the first HPV vaccine based on observance of elevated antibody levels in a few thousand patients who had received the vaccine (including perhaps only a few hundred or less young girls)., then we need a reference for the latter. I don't yet have any opinion one way or another on which statement is more accurate, I just want to be able to read the sources.--Hsmom 21:56, 30 May 2007 (EDT)


The term "sexually active" is liberal bias. Sexual activity within marriage is at ZERO risk of contracting disease; sexual activity outside of marriage is at high risk. {zero risk by virtue of simply being married? um....... no. it severly lowers the risk, however simply getting married does not magically erase any chance of spreading anything to your wife or husband} - Jros83 15:53, 26 September 2008 (EDT)

This is true ONLY if both partners are and have always been monogamous to that partner ONLY. What are the chances? Considering a 50% divorce rate in this country (with much remarriage), and the amount of cheating that goes on within marriage (even among "Christians"), it would be foolish for a woman to NOT get the vaccine. Even if she were pure as the driven snow, she has to hope that her partner was and always will be as well.

Also, the 20,000 figure is meaningless because the monitoring was so brief.--Aschlafly 23:50, 4 January 2008 (EST)

SSchultz, you're pushing your limits here. You deleted important info (like the lack of epidemological studies and lack of protection against other STDs) and inserted numbers that lack any significance due to the brief monitoring. Go to Wikipedia with the liberal bias, please.--Aschlafly 23:59, 4 January 2008 (EST)

I explicitly stated that the monitoring period wasn't long enough to detect cervical cancer, but what about the fact that the vaccine prevented precancerous lesions? That is important information. I'll leave out the 20,000 number, though. SSchultz 00:04, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Andy, I kept everything in that you asked, and merely added information about the prevention of precancerous lesions. What's the story here? It's as if you want this article to claim that the vaccine is ineffective. SSchultz 00:13, 5 January 2008 (EST)

We can pick this up more tomorrow. The entry should remain factual without misleading claims. The vaccine's effect may be short-lived, for example, as monitoring seems to have been intentionally brief. Also, it appeared to me that you kept deleting the reference to a lack of epidemiological studies. See you tomorrow.--Aschlafly 00:22, 5 January 2008 (EST)
Schultz, I love ya but you have to remember that CP is not Wikipedia. We don't tolerate suppression of information merely on the grounds that it "advances a POV". Please work with us - not against us - to present both sides of the HPV vaccine controversy. --Ed Poor Talk 10:07, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Article quality

This article is so bad that I'm wondering whether to delete it.

Or maybe we could tuck it away somewhere and work on it for a week until it's ready. --Ed Poor Talk 10:20, 5 January 2008 (EST)

The MSNBC source contradicts the line that says the pain causes fainting, MSNBC says "it’s not clear whether the pain of the cervical cancer vaccine was the reason for the reaction [fainting]." Midnus

Dubious claims from liberal newsmagazine

Time says one thing, but they are liberal and they often mix news and editorials together. We need an article on the most prevalent venereal diseases: broken down perhaps by America vs. rest of the world. I had also heard that chlamydia was the most common. Who says it's HPV? Time, or Atlanta CDC? --Ed Poor Talk 12:11, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Speaking of that, there is an article here that notes that "eighty per cent of the 466,000 cases diagnosed globally each year occur in developing countries where it is the leading cause of cancer-related deaths among women." So HPV is much less prevalent in the U.S. and First World countries than the liberal hysteria of the media would have us believe. ThomasB 12:18, 5 January 2008 (EST)
But is is still very common relative to other cancers. The reason that the rate of cervical cancer is so much lower in western countries is that there is wide-spread screening and treatment of precancerous lesions. Most cancers are caught BEFORE they become invasive and lethal. But some still get missed or are more virulent, and many women don't get screened because they can't afford it. PAP smears and colposcopy and LEEP procedures are not cheap. I've had to take of twenty and thirty year old patients dying from cervical cancer. It's horrible. And to think that their deaths could have been prevented by a vaccine.......ukie 12 October 2008
Thanks for another excellent observation, ThomasB. By the way, often vaccine manufacturers get big tax write-offs by dumping their stale or defective vaccine products on the Third World. Recently the vaccine caused a tragic epidemic of polio in one African country.--Aschlafly 21:19, 5 January 2008 (EST)
Careful what you write, please, Aschafly. The vaccine that caused the (small, local) epidemic of polio was a polio vaccine one which contained a rare mutation in the attenuated polio virus[2]. Nothing at all to do with HPV or with "dumping" "defective" vaccines. Loose talk about vaccines can cost lives by creating ill-founded hysteria. KennyMac 18:22, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
Your comment confirms rather than rebuts what I said. By the way, all the "hysteria" seems to be in favor of duping people into taking shoddy products.--Aschlafly 21:04, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

"Soreness" Admission

The statement by the CDC that the injection commonly causes soreness at the injection site is meaningless, and almost comical. Unless there is a good reason for including such an obviously meaningless statement, let's remove it.--Aschlafly 09:38, 29 August 2008 (EDT)

I felt that the CDC statement validated and quantified the anecdotal evidence from the news story - it showed that it was not just a few silly high school girls saying "ooohhhh, that hurt!" to a newspaper reporter, but rather that it was a widespread and well-documented reaction to the vaccine. I'm not sure I understand your objection? At first I thought you thought the whole paragraph was not worthy of inclusion (which I could see both sides of), but since you've just removed the CDC part, I realize I don't understand your objection. How is it meaningless? Please understand - I'm not criticizing your opinion - just trying to understand it. I can be a bit ditsy at times - blonde, actually! - so sometimes I don't get the obvious unless it's spelled out to me. --Hsmom 22:19, 30 August 2008 (EDT)
Most injections cause soreness at the injection site, so the CDC statement obscures the dangers of this particular vaccine by making an obvious and meaningless statement. It would be as though an entry on a breed of dangerous pitbulls admitted only the obvious truth that "the most common encounter with this breed of pitbull is a harmless one!"--Aschlafly 22:23, 30 August 2008 (EDT)
Good analogy. I'll remove the rest of the paragraph. --Hsmom 23:03, 30 August 2008 (EDT)
Your reasoning does not follow at all. A news story explaining that the Gardasil vaccine hurts more than others is obviously still relevant. In the pitbull example, would you delete a statement explaining how a bite by a pitbull is typically more painful than a bite by other dogs? I hope not.--Aschlafly 23:08, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

Name change

Seeing as people are more likely to search "Gardasil", could the article name be changed to that? JY23 21:47, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Think so?--Andy Schlafly 23:10, 10 January 2009 (EST)

Abstinence and HPV

How does abstinence provide 100% protection against HPV? TheGuy 22:25, 10 January 2009 (EST)

"TheGuy", I'll humbly try to answer your question. HPV is transmitted virtually only by sex. Abstinence is the absence of sex.
Let's try this logically. A is caused only by B. "NOT B" cannot cause A.--Andy Schlafly 23:10, 10 January 2009 (EST)
Let's try a bit more logic...
Wife abstains from sex until marriage, according to the article there is no possible way she can contract HPV.
Husband has sexual encounters in early adulthood in which he contracts HPV. He dates wife for a number of years but does not have sex with her, nor does he tell her about his previous encounters.
Is the wife's abstinence providing her with 100% protection? TheGuy 23:37, 10 January 2009 (EST)
The wife in your rare, obscure hypothetical did not remain abstinent. Abstinence does provide 100% protection against HPV, exactly as the entry states.
Nice try in obscuring the advantage of abstinence, but it fails. Try logic next time. Godspeed.--Andy Schlafly 23:45, 10 January 2009 (EST)
How did the wife not remain abstinent? Are you meaning to say that in this case abstinence means to never have sexual relations? TheGuy 23:47, 10 January 2009 (EST)
"TheGuy", find a dictionary, and use it. Look up the word abstinence. But most importantly, when you are proven wrong, be honest enough to admit it, so you can then grow. Godspeed.--Andy Schlafly 11:09, 11 January 2009 (EST)
TheGuy, your metaphor does not make sense. 'He dates wife for a number of years'. So is she actually his wife? Have they been married and entered into a sexual relationship? Your example is so confused nothing can be made of it. Abstinence means to refrain from having sex. Therefore, there is so chance of contracting an STD. ETrundel 11:56, 11 January 2009 (EST)

If I may point out, HPV can be transmitted during child birth from mother to child.--Able806 09:54, 13 January 2009 (EST)

Then vaccinate every child in utero??? Your statement lacks a relevant point.--Andy Schlafly 10:10, 13 January 2009 (EST)
I assume that the point is that abstinence won't save the child from contracting HPV. AndyJM 10:27, 13 January 2009 (EST)
The liberal comments just get wackier and wackier. Guys, welcome logic and truth. For own sake, if you don't care about its beneficial effect on those around you.--Andy Schlafly 10:37, 13 January 2009 (EST)
Andy, that hardly addresses the point raised. The claim is that abstinence is 100% effective against HPV. If a mother can pass it onto her child then lifelong abstinence failed to protect that child from HPV. Hence the claim cannot be true. See counterexample for an explanation of the logic here. AndyJM 10:43, 13 January 2009 (EST)
No, AndyJM, you're wrong. A lack of abstinence caused that infection also. The entry is correct, and you're on a fool's errand in trying to deny it. Would you deny that 2+2=4 also, if liberals told you to?--Andy Schlafly 11:01, 13 January 2009 (EST)
Um, if the parents had been abstinate, how would they have had the kid in the first place? ChrisR 11:58, 13 January 2009 (EST)
Would I deny that 2+2=4 if liberals told me to? I'm flabbergasted by that response to be honest. I have no idea how to respond to or desire to reply to that sort of rhetoric. AndyJM 11:08, 13 January 2009 (EST)
Why question the analogy rather than consider the point it is intended to make? Abstinence is still the answer to preventing infection: for the child to be safe, the parents need to be abstinent. Abstinence is a trans-generational safeguard, and all need to play their part. MikeSalter 11:25, 13 January 2009 (EST)
MikeSalter, when you explain it like that it all becomes clear. I will concede that I was completely wrong. Andy and MikeSalter, well played sirs. AndyJM 11:30, 13 January 2009 (EST)
The key insight that you were missing was that in order to be sure of never contracting HPV, it is insufficient to personally refrain from sex over your entire lifetime. To be completely safe, you must also ensure that none of your ancestors have ever had sex either.--Brossa 12:00, 13 January 2009 (EST)
This is a serious discussion and facile remarks like Brossa's have no place here. MikeSalter 12:14, 13 January 2009 (EST)

I am sorry if my point was taken out of context, but HPV has other routes of transmission. Even with abstinence, one may still become infected through any of the other routes. I would agree that abstinence is a good preventive and while good, it does not provide 100% protection, but neither does Gardasil.--Able806 12:13, 13 January 2009 (EST)

But none the less, abstinence is still better than the vaccine. No costs, no unwanted side effects. These factors would also have the feedback effect of encouraging abstinence in those who previously may not have considered it; so there is a bonus for both the individual and general morality in society. ETrundel 13:04, 13 January 2009 (EST)
This thread has gone on some tangents, so it's worth recapping the sensible points that were made more clearly. Abstinence and being faithful in marriage are the best ways to avoid contracting an STD, period. Unfortunately, people lie and cheat, and it's little comfort knowing you did the right thing when you find out your spouse did not. Many good, virtuous people find themselves not just the victim of adultery when a spouse cheats or lies about their past, but also the recipient of STDs through no fault of their own. A vaccine against a single, common STD is not a license to be promiscuous - herpes and HIV make that point clear - but it is sensible insurance against finding yourself with a cancer-causing disease through no fault of your own. Passing on that insurance because you expect nothing to go wrong in your life is like passing on auto insurance because you're a safe, responsible driver - and forgetting that the other guy can cause accidents, too. --DinsdaleP 20:41, 13 January 2009 (EST)


  1. CDC - Quadrivalent Human Papillomavirus Vaccine Recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) [1]
  2. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7037462.stm

The Unconsidered Scenario

I agree that abstinence is the best way to avoid getting an STD, but even women committed to abstinence until marriage might have valid reasons for wanting this vaccination. Somewhere in America, a woman is raped every 2 minutes, according to the U.S. Department of Justice. [3] The same source estimates the occurrence of sexually transmitted diseases resulting from rape range from 3.6% to 30%. Given the high-end probability that an attacker has a 1-in-3 chance of carrying an STD, it's entirely sensible for a woman to choose a one-time vaccination against a common STD, simply for the peace of mind in knowing that she'd then have some protection against that disease if she ever were to be sexually assaulted. --DinsdaleP 20:23, 13 January 2009 (EST)

Do the math on your scenario and I'm confident you'll find that risk to be less than the risk of being struck and killed by lightning.--Andy Schlafly 21:51, 13 January 2009 (EST)
Does that make one foolish for investing in a lightning rod then? Using the same sources and the 1-in-3 chance, the odds of an individual woman being raped and contracting an STD from the incident in any given year is (thankfully) 0.024%. However, to draw on the infidelity issue raised above, here are some more likely statistics. Let's start with stats from the Associated Press showing that 22% of men and 14% of women were unfaithful during their marriages. That's almost a 1-in-4 chance for the average married woman to be cheated on. I don't have a correlated stat to show what percent of the cheaters passed on an STD to their unknowing spouse. However, 46% of sexually active Americans (which includes these cheaters, obviously) have an STD, (typically one of the low-risk HPV strains that Gardasil does not protect against). The issue is, is it worth rolling the dice on your heath when a vaccine is available? I've repeatedly stated that abstinence is best - it's just important to acknowledge that there is a viable benefit to this vaccine for moral people concerned about factors beyond their control. --DinsdaleP 22:42, 13 January 2009 (EST)
According to the NOAA, the odds of an individual in the U.S. being struck by lightning in a lifetime are 1/6250, versus a 1/6 chance of women in the U.S. being victims of rape (14.8% of women are victims of completed sexual assault and 2.8% were victims of attempted rape) at some point in their lives, per these numbers. Even if we assume only 3.6% of rapists carry an STD, that still leaves a 0.6% chance of a woman being exposed to an STD through no fault of their own versus 0.016% of people being struck by lightning (and that's not even taking into account that half of that number would likely be men). KevinS 22:46, 13 January 2009 (EST)
Your data are from a one-sided source that combines rape with attempted rape, a misleading statistical trick (which is it, rape or not?). The same source claims that 3% of men are raped, which is absurd.
The vaccine protects against only a tiny percentage of STDs, and you haven't factored that in either. When you do an objective analysis, you'll see that the risk of being struck by lightning is higher, which is hardly a risk anyone incurs costs and risks adverse effects to avoid.--Andy Schlafly 23:08, 13 January 2009 (EST)
For the record, Aschlafly, I wanted to point out where I'm agreeing with you on this topic (in case you think all my comments are knee-jerk rebuttals):
  • Abstinence is the best means of preventing STDs, period.
  • Vaccines should not be made mandatory when their long-term effects are unknown, and they do not address high-risk, highly-contagious diseases like smallpox where the long-term risk is worth it.
That said, it would be helpful to acknowledge that there are circumstances where one can do all the right things and still be exposed to STDs because of the actions of others (i.e. infidelity, assault). Each person has to decide what the likelihood of that is, and if they choose voluntary vaccination they shouldn't be regarded as more likely to be promiscuous because of that choice.
Finally, the statistic you claimed to be absurd is that 3% of men are raped is not absurd at all, it's a matter of understanding that most of these assaults happened when they were young boys, not adults. The fact that prison rape occurs has to be considered as well. Here are some details behind the number[4]:
  • About 3% of American men – a total of 2.78 million men – have experienced a rape at some point in their lifetime
  • In 2003, one in every ten rape victims was male. While there are no reliable annual surveys of sexual assaults on children, the Justice Department has estimated that one of six victims are under age 12 (National Crime Victimization Study, 2003).
  • 71% of male victims were first raped before their 18th birthday; 16.6% were 18-24 years old, and 12.3% were 25 or older (Tjaden & Thoennes, 2006).
  • 22% of male inmates have been raped at least once during their incarceration; roughly 420,000 prisoners each year (Human Rights Watch, 2001).
I'll move on to other topics, so feel free to have the last word on this. --DinsdaleP 10:23, 14 January 2009 (EST)
It would be perfectly simple to decrease drastically the number of rapes (and thus eliminate almost completely the need for vaccinations, assuming abstinence is practised) if some of the measures advocated on this site were implemented nationwide. For example, if gun control were relaxed and more people carried firearms, I daresay your average rapist would feel less confident about his ability to successfully overpower his victim. ETrundel 15:01, 14 January 2009 (EST)
That might help if life were simple and ideal, but in reality many rape victims are minors, and the source above mentions over 400,000 cases of prison rape annually. Arming the first group is not a good idea, and the second group goes without saying. --DinsdaleP 15:10, 14 January 2009 (EST)

Reversion of "Death and Paralysis" Association

I won't change that section again, but how is it valid to claim the vaccine is associated with death and paralysis by citing single source which explicitly says that the vaccine was not the cause of the girl's paralysis? If it can be shown by another source then that's fine, but this one contradicts the point, and I haven't send any other cases of established vaccine-related deaths or paralysis. I'm not taking Gardasil safety lightly, btw - a close relative is considering getting this vaccine and I've been reading up on it accordingly. --DinsdaleP 21:43, 13 January 2009 (EST)

The article does not take the position that you claim. Quite the contrary, the very point of the article is to report on the connection. The lead includes, "Her mother Cheryl believes that her daughter's mystery illness is directly related to the vaccine ...."
Merck's own package insert admits, I think, that it causes severe reactions including death. Its effects on fertility and whether it causes cancer, which are longer-term effects, are unknown.--Andy Schlafly 21:50, 13 January 2009 (EST)
"Her mother believes" in an association in her mind, but that didn't make it real and the facts stated in the same article bore that out. Some people sincerely believe in UFO's, but if you had an article that said "Mary believes she saw a UFO over New York City" followed by "...but she was proven to be mistaken by credible experts", it would be wrong to say that UFO's were seen over NYC. --DinsdaleP 22:47, 13 January 2009 (EST)