Difference between revisions of "Talk:Gestapo"

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:The Gestapo did not have Waffen-SS officers "per se" in it; but, as you may know, general SS officers could belong to different braches of the SS at the same time. They could even have one rank in the Allgemeine SS (general SS) and a different rank in the Waffen-SS; Hermann Fegelein is an example of that or they could have rank in the general SS and Gestapo like Heinrich Müller. Müller was first chief of operations of the Gestapo under Gestapo chief Heydrich (who Himmler made the first director/chief after he obtained control of it in April 1934) and later Müller was the Gestapo chief (1939-1945). The Gestapo did not wear German Army uniforms but in the east at times wore SS uniforms with the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) diamond id. on the sleeve. The Gestapo also used police detective ranks and generally did not wear uniforms (especially in the West and in Germany itself). -- [[User:JohnJustice|JohnJustice]] ([[User talk:JohnJustice|talk]]) 16:59, 22 February 2017 (EST)
 
:The Gestapo did not have Waffen-SS officers "per se" in it; but, as you may know, general SS officers could belong to different braches of the SS at the same time. They could even have one rank in the Allgemeine SS (general SS) and a different rank in the Waffen-SS; Hermann Fegelein is an example of that or they could have rank in the general SS and Gestapo like Heinrich Müller. Müller was first chief of operations of the Gestapo under Gestapo chief Heydrich (who Himmler made the first director/chief after he obtained control of it in April 1934) and later Müller was the Gestapo chief (1939-1945). The Gestapo did not wear German Army uniforms but in the east at times wore SS uniforms with the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) diamond id. on the sleeve. The Gestapo also used police detective ranks and generally did not wear uniforms (especially in the West and in Germany itself). -- [[User:JohnJustice|JohnJustice]] ([[User talk:JohnJustice|talk]]) 16:59, 22 February 2017 (EST)
 
::And it's probably safe to say the Gestspo would be virtually powerless investigating an SS officer, but may have been employed on occassion investigating Wehrmacht officers? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|CIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win?]]</sup> 18:14, 22 February 2017 (EST)
 
::And it's probably safe to say the Gestspo would be virtually powerless investigating an SS officer, but may have been employed on occassion investigating Wehrmacht officers? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|CIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win?]]</sup> 18:14, 22 February 2017 (EST)
:::I cannot think of a time they investigated an SS officer; but yes, they certainly could investigate Wehrmacht officers; working hand-in-hand with the SD. The Hauptamt SS-Gericht (SS Court Main Office) was the internal legal system for conducting investigations, trials, and punishment of SS and police members. -- [[User:JohnJustice|JohnJustice]] ([[User talk:JohnJustice|talk]]) 19:18, 22 February 2017 (EST)  
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:::I cannot think of a time they investigated an SS officer after 1939; but yes, they certainly could investigate Wehrmacht officers; working hand-in-hand with the SD. The Hauptamt SS-Gericht (SS Court Main Office) was the internal legal system for conducting investigations, trials, and punishment of SS and police members after it was formed. -- [[User:JohnJustice|JohnJustice]] ([[User talk:JohnJustice|talk]]) 19:18, 22 February 2017 (EST)  
 
:::: Both the Nazi and Soviet systems are carbon copies of each other. The SS and KGB are the strongarm's of the Party to force regular Army officers to do the Party's will. As the SS grew, the SD was created internally to keep an eye on corruption within SS ranks.  
 
:::: Both the Nazi and Soviet systems are carbon copies of each other. The SS and KGB are the strongarm's of the Party to force regular Army officers to do the Party's will. As the SS grew, the SD was created internally to keep an eye on corruption within SS ranks.  
 
::::China and North Korea still use this model and have internal organizations with ominious sounding names like 'Discipline Inspection Commission'.
 
::::China and North Korea still use this model and have internal organizations with ominious sounding names like 'Discipline Inspection Commission'.
 
::::Where many history texts err about KGB & SS is in stating they were created to terrorize the civilian population. While they certainly did that, their primary function for being created was to subjugate the one institution the Party deemed a threat to its control - the military - which in both the Russian and German cases had guns and lacked the ideological underpinings of the Party. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|CIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win?]]</sup> 11:30, 23 February 2017 (EST)
 
::::Where many history texts err about KGB & SS is in stating they were created to terrorize the civilian population. While they certainly did that, their primary function for being created was to subjugate the one institution the Party deemed a threat to its control - the military - which in both the Russian and German cases had guns and lacked the ideological underpinings of the Party. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|CIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win?]]</sup> 11:30, 23 February 2017 (EST)
 
::::The Red Army show trials and purges of 1938 and the July 20, 1944 attempt to kill Hitler being examples as to ''why'' the KGB & SS were created in the first place. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|CIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win?]]</sup> 12:20, 23 February 2017 (EST)
 
::::The Red Army show trials and purges of 1938 and the July 20, 1944 attempt to kill Hitler being examples as to ''why'' the KGB & SS were created in the first place. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|CIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win?]]</sup> 12:20, 23 February 2017 (EST)
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:::::The SD was originally just the intelligence gathering office of the SS, formed in 1931, as the "Ic-Dienst" and they kept tabs (spying) on all the other Nazi organizations, especially the SA, the military and of course, civilians. Their name was changed to the SD in 1932. Heydrich was the driving force and head of the department. They did watch over the sections and members of the Nazi Party and other sections of the SS; and after Hitler came to power in 1933, focused a lot of attention of real and perceived political enemies. They, like the Gestapo and Kripo, became departments of the RSHA in Sept. 1939. They worked with the Gestapo; how it worked is the SD would investigate, gathering information and the Gestapo would then arrest the person in question. The SD also was involved in tracking opinion and criticism of Nazi Germany and subversive activities in foreign countries (spying). -- [[User:JohnJustice|JohnJustice]] ([[User talk:JohnJustice|talk]]) 16:06, 28 February 2017 (EST)   
  
 
==Suggestion for this article==
 
==Suggestion for this article==

Latest revision as of 15:06, 28 February 2017

I think Northwest may have Gestapo confused with Waffen SS. While both were under Himmler and there was some overlap in its command structure with the regular SS, fundamentally it was a police investigatory body and not a fighting unit.

In a Gau, for instance, which had only a party operative as Gauleiter, the party was forced to have the presence of Himmler's Gestapo which may have been staffed with some SS officers; in other Gau's where a Gauleiter may have held dual positions in the SS and party ranks, the Gestapo may have been heavily staffed with SS.

The question of Waffen SS serving in the Gestapo, which could have occurred very late in the war, is something that would have to be looked into. If it did occurr, it certainly wasn't widespread and didn't last long. It may have happened as fronts were collapsing in Poland and France. But the Gestapo itself was never issued any tanks or other military hardware, AFAIK. It simply would have been a dual use of personal brought about by a state of emergency, and the heavy weapons belonged to Waffen SS. RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win?

May be he does have it confused with the Waffen-SS which was a "defacto" part of the German Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in World War II. The Gestapo did not have a military component; it was always a "Secret State Police Force"; first in Prussia and then for Germany. After Hitler unified all police forces for Germany and named Himmler Chief of the German Police in June 1936, Himmler had national operational control of all uniformed, detective, secret police and security police. The Gestapo became a state agency; folded into the SiPo with the Kripo in 1936 as sub-branch offices. Then in Sept. 1939, the SiPo (Gestapo & Kripo) were folded into the RSHA as departments under Heydrich.
The Gestapo did not have Waffen-SS officers "per se" in it; but, as you may know, general SS officers could belong to different braches of the SS at the same time. They could even have one rank in the Allgemeine SS (general SS) and a different rank in the Waffen-SS; Hermann Fegelein is an example of that or they could have rank in the general SS and Gestapo like Heinrich Müller. Müller was first chief of operations of the Gestapo under Gestapo chief Heydrich (who Himmler made the first director/chief after he obtained control of it in April 1934) and later Müller was the Gestapo chief (1939-1945). The Gestapo did not wear German Army uniforms but in the east at times wore SS uniforms with the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) diamond id. on the sleeve. The Gestapo also used police detective ranks and generally did not wear uniforms (especially in the West and in Germany itself). -- JohnJustice (talk) 16:59, 22 February 2017 (EST)
And it's probably safe to say the Gestspo would be virtually powerless investigating an SS officer, but may have been employed on occassion investigating Wehrmacht officers? RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win? 18:14, 22 February 2017 (EST)
I cannot think of a time they investigated an SS officer after 1939; but yes, they certainly could investigate Wehrmacht officers; working hand-in-hand with the SD. The Hauptamt SS-Gericht (SS Court Main Office) was the internal legal system for conducting investigations, trials, and punishment of SS and police members after it was formed. -- JohnJustice (talk) 19:18, 22 February 2017 (EST)
Both the Nazi and Soviet systems are carbon copies of each other. The SS and KGB are the strongarm's of the Party to force regular Army officers to do the Party's will. As the SS grew, the SD was created internally to keep an eye on corruption within SS ranks.
China and North Korea still use this model and have internal organizations with ominious sounding names like 'Discipline Inspection Commission'.
Where many history texts err about KGB & SS is in stating they were created to terrorize the civilian population. While they certainly did that, their primary function for being created was to subjugate the one institution the Party deemed a threat to its control - the military - which in both the Russian and German cases had guns and lacked the ideological underpinings of the Party. RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win? 11:30, 23 February 2017 (EST)
The Red Army show trials and purges of 1938 and the July 20, 1944 attempt to kill Hitler being examples as to why the KGB & SS were created in the first place. RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win? 12:20, 23 February 2017 (EST)
The SD was originally just the intelligence gathering office of the SS, formed in 1931, as the "Ic-Dienst" and they kept tabs (spying) on all the other Nazi organizations, especially the SA, the military and of course, civilians. Their name was changed to the SD in 1932. Heydrich was the driving force and head of the department. They did watch over the sections and members of the Nazi Party and other sections of the SS; and after Hitler came to power in 1933, focused a lot of attention of real and perceived political enemies. They, like the Gestapo and Kripo, became departments of the RSHA in Sept. 1939. They worked with the Gestapo; how it worked is the SD would investigate, gathering information and the Gestapo would then arrest the person in question. The SD also was involved in tracking opinion and criticism of Nazi Germany and subversive activities in foreign countries (spying). -- JohnJustice (talk) 16:06, 28 February 2017 (EST)

Suggestion for this article

I would suggest the first division in terms of a subheading would be to seperate out how the Gestapo operated in occupied contries. This will also aid in a chronological order how the organization evolved over time. RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win? 18:26, 22 February 2017 (EST)

There was not any real difference in how they operated, just that the Gestapo members would wear the field grey SS uniform with the SD id. diamond on the sleeve, often times. And in the east, especially, the SS and police leader (SSPF or HSSPF) were appointed and given direct command authority for every SS and police unit in a given geographical region/area. -- JohnJustice (talk) 19:18, 22 February 2017 (EST)
This then, I think is cause of Norwest's confusion. Pre-war and domestically, the Gestapo was made up of professional career civilian police investigstors; in the occupied territories local police were not absorbed into it, but in most cases worked alongside SS officers who filled slots in the Gestspo as the bureaucrcy expanded in newly seized terfitories. RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win? 11:13, 23 February 2017 (EST)
Just thought I'd chime in here, but another issue that gave that impression, not just to me but likely to a lot of other folks - movies and TV shows like Hogan's Heroes, which (thanks to their writers taking creative licence) depict the Gestapo as a paramilitary unit of sorts as well as the Nazi secret police unit. Northwest (talk) 11:34, 23 February 2017 (EST)
It should be kept in mind as the war advanced, and particularly after the July 20 plot, if a party member, SS officer, Wehrmacht officer, or Gestapo was executed for treasonous activities, again somebody would be appointed to fill that slot who continued he same function or office with another organization. The whole system was created theoretically as a check on loyalties, but in practice it kept being winnowed down to smaller and smaller internal cadres who could be trusted not just with the Fuhrer's personal security, but to see that his will and orders were carried out. By the end, it was the SD that performed this function. RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win? 11:46, 23 February 2017 (EST)
FWIW, the Nazi bureaucracy was not unlike the comical picture in some movies where you go into a small town, and the local sheriff (like Andy Taylor in Mayberry) doubles up as municipal judge, postmaster, etc. No separation of powers between police and judicial. The Party being the source of the local bigwigs power, who than can delegate offices and appointments he holds to cronies. RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win? 12:06, 23 February 2017 (EST)