Difference between revisions of "Talk:Hollywood values"

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topless requires that the breasts be exposed since they were not she was not topless --<span style="margin-top: -3px;">&nbsp;[[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]]</span><span style="position:relative; overflow:hidden; width:88px; height:15px; z-index:2;"> [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|<font color="gray">(contributions)</font>]] [[User_talk:Deborah|<font color="darkslategray">(talk)</font>]]</span> 21:49, 28 April 2008 (EDT)
 
topless requires that the breasts be exposed since they were not she was not topless --<span style="margin-top: -3px;">&nbsp;[[Image:50 star flag.png|12px]]</span><span style="position:relative; overflow:hidden; width:88px; height:15px; z-index:2;"> [[User:Deborah]] [[Special:Contributions/Deborah|<font color="gray">(contributions)</font>]] [[User_talk:Deborah|<font color="darkslategray">(talk)</font>]]</span> 21:49, 28 April 2008 (EDT)
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:*sigh* Jinx, you can say that some sources said the girl was topless. That would come under the heading of "exaggeration", I'd say. Unless the editor in chief overturns my decision, I intend to have us all avoid that word. Let's not embarrass the girl any more than she already has been. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 21:52, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

Revision as of 19:52, 28 April 2008

This obviously needs more stuff, but I stub'd it so the red link on the main page went away.-MexMax 22:58, 22 January 2008 (EST)

Unlike reality, which clearly has none of these things. Perhaps a random use of the word "glamourization" is in order? Barikada 00:01, 23 January 2008 (EST)

Barikada, I think that's a central point! It's not only disrespect for morals, it's flagrant glamorization of lack of morals! I'll leave it to you to add it, but good call.-MexMax 19:59, 23 January 2008 (EST)

Thanks. Barikada 20:11, 23 January 2008 (EST)

MexMax - please stop reinserting the unsubstantiated information into the article. Thank you. Misterlinx 23:23, 24 January 2008 (EST)

MexMax - any and all talk of whether Heath Ledger's death was due to 'Hollywood Values' should be left until AFTER the autopsy and inquest have been published. Mr. Schalfly's previous version of the article was based on a celebrity gossip article, and has been superceded by real information from the police. Misterlinx 23:40, 24 January 2008 (EST)

I'm sorry for jumping the gun. That seems truthful, I apologize for reverting without looking closer. I thought we were just doing the same edit war over and over again...MexMax 23:46, 24 January 2008 (EST)
One point: I think the MTV article should be treated as, errr, second best. Is there a better citation? I think we'd rather not cite to MTV unless we have no other chance.MexMax 23:47, 24 January 2008 (EST)

Possible Inclusions

A few suggestions for the list, off the top of my head: Marilyn Monroe would be a prime (and notorious) example. Chris Farley, who's stated goal was to live and die like Belushi. Janis Joplin. Anna Nicole Smith. Freddie Prinze. Rock Hudson. And depending on how comprehensive you want the list to be, there's an almost endless parade of people who were more famous as part of a group than as individuals, such as Keith Moon or Dennis Wilson.--RossC 08:16, 25 January 2008 (EST)

I did a search for Hollywood liberals and came up with this website. On the front page I see that the cops are invertviewing Mary Kate Olsen about the suspicious circumstances in Ledger's death, David Copperfield has had two childred out of wedlock, Britney Spears is finally making it to her custody hearing to see if she can stay off drugs long enough to take care of her own kids, and Kiefer Sutherland is being let out of jail after a DUI charge. Hollywood values at their best! (Or should I say worst?) HelpJazz 10:13, 25 January 2008 (EST)

If an MTV reference is frowned upon, I can hardly see a credible argument for references to The National Enquirer? It's not exactly known for its adherence to fact-based logic, is it? Misterlinx 12:29, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Why not? I bet they had articles on every one of the people we have in the article right now. HelpJazz 11:21, 26 January 2008 (EST)
There's a reason that tabloids are also known as "Gossip rags." Barikada 22:36, 26 January 2008 (EST)

The people putting these lists together do not seem to realize that in making a case linking "Hollywood values"--not coherently defined in the article, by the way--to early death or criminality it is not enough simply to cite examples; it needs to be demonstrated that these alleged consequences are more likely to occur to those who adopt these values than to the general population. Dadsnagem2 11:19, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Heath Ledger

How did Hollywood values contribute to his death? TheGuy 04:49, 1 February 2008 (EST)

It is clear upon reviewing this and this that nobody has justified how Hollywood values contributed to Ledger's death. We all acknowledge that during his life he probably did take drugs and was a selfish individual, however there is no evidence that his overdose on legal prescription drugs was a suicide attempt or reasonably affected by his drug habit. Given that the example is used in the context of death ("Hollywood values are deadly. Some examples include:") then I think it would be prudent to remove Ledger's entry until sufficient evidence connecting Hollywood to his death has been found, otherwise we are just sponsoring gossip. TheGuy 07:22, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Of what significance is it that he was found naked in his bed? Dadsnagem2 11:20, 7 February 2008 (EST)

So?

So? What does this article intend to prove? What is its thesis? Is this article intended to somehow connect the unfortunate deaths of some people who got too involved in drugs or alcohol as an indicator that hollywood films are a bad influence? Is this article supposed to somehow connect these so-called "Hollywood Values" with liberal politics? Last time I checked, Rush Limbaugh had had an embarrassing addiction to opiate painkillers, George W. Bush had admitted to a cocaine problem, and Mel Gibson had such a drinking problem that he was accusing "the Jews" of all the evils that had ever plagued him. These three men, for example, are CONSERVATIVES. Mel Gibson even functions as part of the industry centered in HOLLYWOOD. Why is good ol' Mel not mentioned in this article? Is the anti-liberal bias in this article too overwhelming to include even one conservative who's had problems? Or, as I suspect, is Conservapedia wearing the type of blinders that see any conservative's troubles with drugs or alcohol as a momentary temptation by the liberal side?

If you simply blame everything on your opponents, all the time, then you never have to think it through or acknowledge reality. Seems to be the basic M.O. here.

I, for one, fail to see how Heath Ledger's accidental death from combining the wrong medications (all of which seem to have been prescribed for him) as indicative of a "Hollywood Value" system. Well, I'm sure the response will go like this: "He was NAKED! Surely, nakedness is indicative of SOME evil-doing. After all, LIBERALS SLEEP NAKED! No God-fearing person should sleep sans pajamas!"

I'm disgusted.

Artiefisk 14:34, 12 February 2008 (EST)

What about Britney Spears?

Britney is a very famous person, and hasn't she been to rehab? Shouldn't she be mentioned in connection with "Hollywood Values"? Just a suggestion. MikeSchwartz 20:07, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Not entirely accurate

This article doesn't really give an accurate definition of the phrase, 'Hollywood Values'. I don't really blame you, as it is very difficult, if not impossible, to accurately define it. I also made this point on the 'Liberal Denial' Talk Page, so I'll just copy the relevant part of what I said here:

This phrase means different things to different people. Simply Googling the phrase gives many different meanings. To some, 'Hollywood values' means exactly what Conservapedia says it means. To others, it is summarised as, 'Save a tree, kill a baby. Ban cigarettes, legalize pot. Screw the Iraqi’s, save Darfur. McCarthy is bad, Castro is good. Bush is Hitler, Che is a hero. Save the planet, live in a mansion.' To still others, it means being very egotistical, not very well grounded in reality, and not having a lot of common sense. To yet others, it's all about doing anything at all, as long as you're paid enough. And, by far, that is not a complete list of the various different things this phrase actually means to various different people. Urushnor 14:48, 13 February 2008 (EST)

It should also be noted that the meaning of 'Hollywood Values', according to some, is directly contradicted by what others mean by 'Hollywood Values'. Urushnor 14:50, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Wikilinks

Why are all these actors, singers, etc. wikilinked? Do we plan to have articles on them all? I removed most of them at some point, but I see they were added back. HelpJazz 13:26, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Crime

For the crime section, please stick to actual crimes. Maybe there could be another section for offensive comments. RSchlafly 14:48, 16 February 2008 (EST)

TBH Roger, I think the linked Mel Gibson article covers it sufficiently, so - in Gibson's case at least - there's probably no need to mention it in the article at all. But perhaps you're right that there should be a section for those celebs who have demonstrated consistent/repeated immoral behaviour/outbursts but have stopped short of actually breaking the law. 10px Fox (talk|contribs) 14:59, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Hollywood

Why are musicians and athletes included in an article about Hollywood? Maestro 14:34, 18 February 2008 (EST)

What do we do?

Even if Hollywood values are in fact a problem, what can we possibly do about it? Make extramarital and premarital sex illegal? Or just force everyone to convert to Christianity? Blinkadyblink 23:18, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Bix Biederbecke

Not really a "Hollywood" star - Jazz musicians at the time were more liable to spend their lives in NY (as he did), Chicago, or New Orleans. Lots of jazz musicians, of course, had serious addiction problems, but it's not really intellectually honest to lump in struggling musicians - many of America's greatest jazz artists never made much money - in with wealthy movie stars. Remove? AliceBG 21:56, 5 March 2008 (EST)

Who compiled this silly list?

Bix Biederbecke is hardly the only problem here. What about Brian Epstein? What did he have to do with Hollywood? What about Sid Viscious? Hollywood? I hardly think so. Richard Jeni suffered from clinical depression. Do you think that might have had something to do with his suicide? Clara Blandick was in pain and facing blindness. What has her suicide got to do with Hollywodd values? Sharon Tate was murdered by the Manson family. Why is she in the article? The circumstances of Virginia Rappe's death remain unknown and controversial. What has Heath Ledger's accidental overdose got to do with Hollywood or any other values? What has John Bonham got to do with Hollywood? The inquest into the death of Kenneth Williams returned an open verdict as it was not posibble to determine whether his overdose was accidental. In any case he was suffering from declining health and depression at the time.

This is extremely sloppy work. --VincentMC 22:33, 5 March 2008 (EST)

Tate

Tate was murdered. How is that her fault? Maybe that part should just mention the Manson Family--a depraved group, indeed. Cisnon 22:38, 5 March 2008 (EST)


reply to the above criticisms (prior to Tate): liberals become so literal when it becomes a basis for censoring things they don't like. Hollywood values are not literally confined to Hollywood, California, and, by the way, things like depression and overdosing on prescription drugs are a symptom of Hollywood values and occur in that group in far higher percentages than the general public. Please, no liberal denial on this site.--Aschlafly 22:40, 5 March 2008 (EST)

As to Tate, I welcome more information before censoring it from the entry.--Aschlafly 22:40, 5 March 2008 (EST)

Again, I think censor has a different meaning than delete. Now, I'm no big city lawyer. Wait, yes I am.-PhoenixWright 22:44, 5 March 2008 (EST)
Riiight... So, any time any entertainer somewhere in the (English speaking?) world suffers depression or overdoses on drugs, whether legal or prescription, whether accidentally or on purpose, that goes to show that "Hollywood values" (whatever they are) are evil. Did I say sloppy work? I withdraw that. I meant stupid, religiously driven nonsense. --VincentMC 23:04, 5 March 2008 (EST)
Listing a pregnant murder victim as somehow indicative of "Hollywood values" is a disgrace. Sharon Tate did nothing to encourage Charles Manson to murder her; no aspect of her behavior or beliefs can excuse that, or played any role in it. Perhaps we should list her fetus as another sinner who deserved to be murdered? -- Factcheck 23:08, 5 March 2008 (EST)

You're bloody kidding me

Death is a value? Sexually-transmitted disease is a value? I have no clue what you're trying to say here-- That Hollywood is responsible for death and STDs? Or that actors somehow worship these two things? Barikada 10:08, 6 March 2008 (EST)

You are clueless. Drug use and promiscuity are Hollywood values, and they cause death.--Aschlafly 10:11, 6 March 2008 (EST)
The paranoia in that comment aside, that still doesn't make death a value... Or disease, for that matter. Barikada 10:18, 6 March 2008 (EST)
You're misreading (or misunderstanding) the entry, Bari. It doesn't say that disease and death are Hollywood values, it says that Hollywood values breed a culture that leads to disease and death.--RossC 14:03, 6 March 2008 (EST)
My apologies, it appears that you are correct... or at least you were, before the last grammar fix. Barikada 14:53, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Hypocrisy

Why was the new section Hypocrisy deleted? It was a fair point as explained eloquently at Liberal Hypocrisy I would have asked the reverting Sysop but the talk page is locked. JoeSoap 10:35, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

The context of Clooney portraying a US military officer was not explained. Please cease trying to attract my attention, and go back to your own website where I'm sure you will be much happier. 10px Fox (talk|contribs) 10:39, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
Context has now been added. I don't have a website. But thank you for your concern about my happiness. JoeSoap 10:51, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

removal

How can you justify Tate being a victim of hollywood values? Please point to it? I dont want to get into an edit but you cant just add with the tag "because I say so" AdenJ 21:05, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

It's self-evident from the explanation given. Tate was not a perpetrator of the crime, but became a victim of the culture in which she joined.--Aschlafly 21:30, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

No it is not self evident. What culture did she join? married a film director? Associated with hippies? If that so then she was a victim of hippies values. Her 'culture' lead her to be murdered? many people get murdered and she was targeted because she was famous. That has nothing to do with so called holloywood values. AdenJ 21:57, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

Right removing the Tate stuff again. At the time of the murder Sharon Tate has not been using drugs or alcohol, she was pregnant and the Mason family was actually interested in killing a man who refused to sign his band up. Tate was unlucky but it is clearly at odds with other deaths listed with hers as she was murdered! AdenJ 23:55, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

Wow: Tate's murder was just the product of chance, like getting hit by a car! No, AdenJ, Tate's murder was the result of Hollywood values. Maybe the initial intended victim was someone else, but that reinforces how Hollywood values work that they killed her instead. The entry is staying in.--Aschlafly 20:06, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

I give up, its totally ridiculous. Sharon Tate was murdered, It was nothing, repeat, NOTHING to do with values. Unless its the values of Manson. AdenJ 21:23, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

AdenJ, Tate's murder had everything to do with values. And, duh, that does include the Hollywood values of Manson and his followers.--Aschlafly 21:26, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

So its 'duh' now is it? How did Mason have hollywood values? He was in no movies and was a poor musician. How was he affected by hollywood values? Because he was obessed with The Beatles? Who wasnt at that time. He was a drug crazed hippie with a severe mental problem. AdenJ 21:31, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Ridiculous

This article just cherry-picks famous people (or...not, in the case of "1920s cornettists" and similar cases), and stretches a granule, albeit a malleable one, miles and miles away from the true root causes of their deaths to make some point that these people's deaths are connected to some Spectre of Glittery Death looming up over Mulholland. How many famous people are there? There must be...untold millions of YouTube phenoms, game show contestants, sandwich shop spokesman, and to highlight a few flare-ups is entirely counter to any kind of legitimacy an encyclopedic volume should have. When I look at that list, I see Sid Vicious, who, as far as I know, lived in the UK for 98% of his life. I see Elvis Presley (maybe there should be a "Memphis values" page). And Sharon Tate...Sharon Tate? Wasn't Manson actually trying to kill somebody else, someone who wasn't there (supposedly a record honcho or someother such person who denied him a chance to be on a Beach Boys record). If that's how we're gonna be about it, and say innocent pregnant sober bystanders are perpetrators of Hollywood values, then let's say those whores that Jack the Ripper killed were victims of "West End values". LinusWilson 18:23, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Linus has given us the fundamental liberal denial: denying that liberal values have consequences.--Aschlafly 20:04, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Aschlafly has given us the fundamental conservative denial. AdenJ 21:24, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

I don't see anywhere in my graph where I denied that liberal values have consequences. I think that this whole liberal/conservative jive is basically a distraction, an abstract that exists only theoretically, and even then, as a theory lend creedence by consensus. If these people's death is going to be attributed to a set of industries in a geographic location, then it's already got the integrity of arguing about air temperature. Who cares? I'm not some objectivist/nihilist (probably mutually exclusive philosophies, but often combined nonetheless by people who don't understand them), so I'm not going to deforest the issue by going on some bleat about how we're all just "computers made out of meat" or whatnot, but I think this issue is...not an issue. I'm not arguing at it from any perspective other than one which states all perspectives are already invalid if it comes from a person who cares about things like this. So to say that anybody's neurons are any better than anyone else's simply because of the choices which all the electric 1's and 0's in our brains combine to create, is stupid. Even the whole idea of "liberal denial", which is supposed to be some kind of searing label which supercedes all the fray of bickering and mudslinging, has been trampled on by reductive childishness that's rampant here. Liberal denial. That's all your arguement is here. You'll say, I'm using liberal denial because what I'm saying is a denial coming from a liberal viewpoint. You define my point of view, incorrectly, sure, but you're still just defining it. Not refining it, not clarifying or showing how it's wrong and maybe trying to excise the benign liberal tumors you probably surmise exist within my brain stem, you're just defining it. I should have taken a hint from the logo and realized that "applying logos" and "slapping labels" is basically the fundamental economy of Conservapedia. All apologies.

LinusWilson 21:22, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Miley Cyrus

see http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gYLnT2kyPIgNUurQ71aNM3EJKpRAD90ARTGO0 "They include shots of the teen wrapped in what appears to be a satin bedsheet, looking over her shoulder with her back exposed."

she was not topless-- 50 star flag.png User:Deborah (contributions) (talk) 21:34, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

That's your opinion and you are not an accepted reference for material. I provided not one, not two but THREE references that described the photo as "topless." Jinxmchue 21:42, 28 April 2008 (EDT)
She was topless unless you are prepared to call a sheet a "top".
Do we want to put our cards on the table people? Clearly the reason that some here do not want this addition to the Hollywood values page is that Ms Cyrus appeared on the Main Page here not long ago as an exemplar of Christian virtue when she spoke of her ambition to abstain from sex until marriage (if memory serves).
Well, now she's been photographed topless. I'll bet if it were Hillary Clinton you would all be loudly insisting that the description "topless" was absolutely accurate. --ElizabethR 21:44, 28 April 2008 (EDT)
Er, no. What *is* clear is that her parents and Disney decided to let her be posed in as risque a fashion as possible - thus largely negating her value as a role model. My only objection is to the word topless which implies visible headlights rather than shrouded ones. Perhaps you'd like to right about teen role models. --Ed Poor Talk 21:48, 28 April 2008 (EDT)
As I said, three references described the photo as "topless." However, I've now clarified the extend of the toplessness in the article. Jinxmchue 21:50, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

topless requires that the breasts be exposed since they were not she was not topless -- 50 star flag.png User:Deborah (contributions) (talk) 21:49, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

  • sigh* Jinx, you can say that some sources said the girl was topless. That would come under the heading of "exaggeration", I'd say. Unless the editor in chief overturns my decision, I intend to have us all avoid that word. Let's not embarrass the girl any more than she already has been. --Ed Poor Talk 21:52, 28 April 2008 (EDT)