Talk:Liberal

From Conservapedia
This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cal05000 (Talk | contribs) at 00:11, 18 March 2008. It may differ significantly from current revision.

Jump to: navigation, search


Archive 1|Archive 2 |Archive 3

This entry is really quite pathetic. If you're going to lock an entry, at least clean it up first. Underscoreb 23:49, 11 November 2007 (EST)

Much improved, thankyou. Underscoreb 20:13, 14 January 2008 (EST)
Sorry to say it, but I have to agree. I was going to add some content here but of course I can't. This article is really quite bad, not to mention very incomplete. It would be better to deal with vandalism manually than to prevent the article (which really is quite important, is it not?) from being developed. --Andy 11:25, 17 November 2007 (EST)

Westboro Baptist Church?

That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Why? Rob Smith 17:35, 5 November 2007 (EST)
It's because Fred Phelps is a liberal activist (see the discussion on the talk page for an explanation).
By the way, it appears the link is broken anyway. Feebasfactor 18:34, 5 November 2007 (EST)

Different definitions of Liberal

Just wanted to add a line pointing out that in some countries such as Australia, the term Liberal is actually used to refer to the conservative view. See the Liberal Party of Australia as an example. This could be worth pointing out as it will prevent them being tarnished by the comments here aimed towards the left wing type Liberals.

That list of (supposed) liberal positions at the beginning is at best a half-truth. Many liberals (including me) DO NOT SUPPORT a number of them.Alloco1 10:43, 21 October 2007 (EDT)

I'm sorry, but the plural of "antidote" is "antidotes," not "data." The list stays. J2xl 22:00, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
Do tell us, J2, what is the plural of 'malapropism'? Underscoreb 00:38, 25 February 2008 (EST)

And just what is so wrong about taxpayer-supported government schools? If it weren't for them, many people, including my parents, wouldn't have been able to get an education. By the way, does the stance of Aschlafly et al against this mean that they would be willing to voluntarily support the education of children not their own whose parents couldn't afford to?Alloco1 00:38, 24 October 2007 (EDT)

Pathetic Article

The formatting is abysmal, the content laughable. I thought Conservapedia was a serious movement to write articles from a right-wing intelligent viewpoint... but i see it's dominated with weak, stolen political jokes. JOKES in an apparently "informative" article. If this is just an oversight, i retract everything.

I agree with the comment above and have reinstated it despite someone (I think Karajou's?) deletion of it. However it should have been signed. I think it's Silvanus', but I'm a bit of a newbie at this. Does anyone know a way of adding a signature to someone else's comment? Underscoreb 18:02, 15 November 2007 (EST)
IMHO, liberalism is like silly putty, you can make of it whatever you want to. Like Hillary going for the Christian vote or Kerry for the NRA. Next they'll be going after the cigarette smoker vote. All else is extraneous. But that is probably too simple a definition. Rob Smith 23:19, 19 November 2007 (EST)
Well, I certainly agree that the editors are applying that attitude to this article. It's generalised, bigoted and unencyclopedic. Yours is not a humble opinion, it's a pompous and largely unfounded diatribe. This isn't trolling, I'm just disappointed and frustrated that the admins are stonewalling any revision of this article, when it's such an important topic. 'Know thine enemy', at the very least. Underscoreb 16:07, 21 November 2007 (EST)
We could unlock it and put today's DNC talking points in. Of course then we'd have to revise it tomorrow to say something completely opposite to accomodate tomorrows talking points. Call this a stable version. Rob Smith 16:26, 21 November 2007 (EST)

Uhhhh, nearly all my edits are gone. Those edits were made to strengthen the article. dubweiser.

Liberal Failures

Rush Limbaugh had a section in the December 2007 Limbaugh Letter called "Liberal Failures". At rushlimbaugh.com, Rush says he got the idea for his article from an article by Jeffrey Lord: A History of Liberal Disasters - American Spectator.

Rush lists several examples of liberal failures under each of these categories:

  • Economy/Taxation
  • Health Care
  • Law/Criminal Justice
  • Environment
  • Education
  • Immigration
  • Culture
  • National Security

Rush says "Liberalism doesn't work. It fails, every time it's tried." [1]

Jeffrey Lord lists examples of these liberal disasters:

  • Forced School Busing
  • Welfare
  • Luxury Tax
  • Alternative Minimum Tax
  • Bringing Peace to Vietnam and Cambodia
  • Free Love
  • Drugs

"TOO SUM UP: Whether it was education policy, welfare policy, economic policy, foreign policy or social policy, time after time after time what became the guiding lights of modern American liberalism proved to be utter disasters. [2]

References

  1. Nailing the Left - Liberal Failures, Rush Limbaugh, The Limbaugh Letter, December 2007, pp. 13-15
  2. A History of Liberal Disasters Jeffrey Lord, The American Spectator, 11/6/2007

We could create a new page called Liberal Failures or incorporate it into one of our existing liberal articles. --Crocoite 10:41, 9 December 2007 (EST)

Denial of gender differences by liberals

"denial of inherent gender differences, leading to things such as wanting men and women to have the same jobs in the military (while quietly holding them to different standards)"

Should we also note that liberals think women should be able to vote too, even though the conservatives throughout history have fought against women's suffrage? Alexjohnc3 18:20, 15 December 2007 (EST)

Subsection on liberal rankings of members of congress?

I think this article would benefit from a brief subsection on the rankings of the national journal: http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/index.htm

The is a very informative page with rankings and voting records of all congress members.--PhineasBogg 18:59, 29 December 2007 (EST)

I made the change, feel free to lock the page again. Thanks --PhineasBogg 16:26, 30 December 2007 (EST)

Westboro Baptist Church

I would like to see Westboro Baptist Church removed from the list of liberal associations. The only thing evidence I can see for them being liberal is Fred Phelps's run for office as a Democrat. In my opinion, this is the same sort of guilt by association, that we accuse Wikipedia of on the Biases of Wikipedia page. To put it another way, having Westboro Baptist Church in the Liberal section, would be like a liberal site having KKK as a conservative organization simply because David Duke was active in the KKK and ran for office as a Republican.--PhineasBogg 20:03, 29 December 2007 (EST)

Thanks for removing this, Ed! --PhineasBogg 16:28, 30 December 2007 (EST)

Huh?

Wait a minute. So, if the media has a liberal bias, wouldn't reinstating the fairness doctine limit liberal airtime instead of Conservative airtime? Barikada 23:57, 26 January 2008 (EST)

Liberals control most media, and especially newspapers and television. They don't control talk radio, but want to grab that also and support the phony fairness doctrine for that reason.--Aschlafly 00:05, 27 January 2008 (EST)
... Wouldn't the fairness doctrine cover all broadcast media? Barikada 00:09, 27 January 2008 (EST)
A day passes. Silence. It is contradictory to claim that liberals control all media, but equal time only harms conservatives. Barikada 15:48, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Liberal

The term "liberal" is associated most with the United States politicians and, besides, its meaning is not all that different in other countries. A qualification is not necessary or helpful.--Aschlafly 20:16, 28 January 2008 (EST)

I suggest that you read the section headed "Liberalism in Europe today". --GDewey 21:03, 28 January 2008 (EST)
P.S. It may assist you to take a look at where the Australian Liberal Party are on the political compass: http://www.politicalcompass.org/aus2007 --GDewey 23:24, 28 January 2008 (EST)
I assume that I have convinced you. If I hear no further from you I will proceed to reinsert my edit. --GDewey 16:54, 30 January 2008 (EST)
The only one I see that only applies to US liberals is the one about the living Constitution. The rest are correct, though. Perhaps we should put a disclaimer next to this one, and then leave the opening line as "A liberal is...". HelpJazz 16:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)
Whoops I found a couple more (the ones about the First Amendment and the Fairness Doctrine), however the majority of the qualities are not limited to the US. HelpJazz 16:15, 4 February 2008 (EST)
Even the issues you cite have analogs in other countries.--Aschlafly 16:37, 4 February 2008 (EST)
You're probably right. Could we change the wording a bit to reflect that? That way you won't have to keep reverting people. HelpJazz 19:25, 4 February 2008 (EST)
I don't the see the need for any changes, and reversion will still be necessary because the liberals will never be happy with this.--Aschlafly 21:12, 4 February 2008 (EST)
That's probably very true. HelpJazz 21:14, 4 February 2008 (EST)

Glad we're all getting on so well. Those silly liberals will never learn.

Anyhoo, doesn't look like either of you read the section in the article headed "Liberalism in Europe today" as I suggested in my post above. Nor, I assume, did you follow the political compass link.

I am not sure why it is so important to maintain internal inconsistency in this article. Nor do I understand why it is so important to maintain that the American usage of the word liberal is the only usage of the word in the world today (which it clearly is not as the article itself states).

Any even half sensible explanation would be appreciated. --GDewey 22:43, 4 February 2008 (EST)

If you want to be taken seriously please keep a civil tone. I'm sorry I didn't see those links; I was primarily responding to the edit war, which was over the statement "a liberal poseses the following qualities". I messed up, I'm only human. Feel better now? HelpJazz 23:20, 4 February 2008 (EST)
My apologies to you. I am rather more annoyed with Andy who blocked me for a 90/10 violation (coincidentally while we were disagreeing here and on the talk:Liberal denial page). I did not realise that you were looking at something else. We are all only human as you say. --GDewey 23:27, 4 February 2008 (EST)
Actaully, upon review, I think you may have been looking in just about the right place. The edit war was over the inclusion of the phrase "In the United States a Liberal..." at the start of the article. --GDewey 23:31, 4 February 2008 (EST)
So, should I change it back again? --GDewey 17:27, 5 February 2008 (EST)
I'm guessing that wouldn't be a wise idea. I would take a look at conservative, though. Perhaps if you moved the general definition to the front, then it would make more sense to have the specific list refer to only Americans. HelpJazz 23:21, 6 February 2008 (EST)

about liberals

1. You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.

2. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.

3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.

4. You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.

5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by documented cyclical changes in the earth's climate and more affected by Soccer moms driving SUV's.

6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.

7. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of Federal funding.

8. You have to believe that the teacher who can't teach fourth graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.

9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who have never been outside of San Francisco do.

10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.

11. You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make 'The Passion of the Christ' for financial gain only.

12. You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.

13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.

14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison and Alexander Graham Bell.

15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides are not.

16. You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is normal and is a very nice person.

17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.

18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House.

19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag queens, transvestites and bestiality should be constitutionally protected,and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.

20. You have to believe that illegal Democrat Party funding by the Chinese Government is somehow in the best interest to the United States.

21. You have to believe that this message is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.

22. You have to believe that it's okay to give Federal workers the day off on Christmas Day .........but it's not okay to say "Merry Christmas". Thiudareiks 06:20, 16 February 2008 (EST)

"You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding." Speaking as a filthy pinko liberal, this is actually pretty funny. Underscoreb 00:45, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Positive Liberal Contributions To Society

Are there any? --RJest 17:52, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Of course there are

  • Niccolò Machiavelli (Florence, 1469-1527), best known for his Il Principe was the founder of realist political philosophy, advocated republican government, citizen armies, division of power, protection of personal property, and restraint of government expenditure as being necessary to the liberties of a republic
  • Desiderius Erasmus (Netherlands, 1466-1536) was an advocate of the doctrine now known as humanism, critic of entrenched interests, irrationality and superstition. Erasmusian societies formed across Europe, to some extent in response to the turbulence of the Reformation.
  • Hugo Grotius or Hugo de Groot (Netherlands, 1583-1645), laid the foundations for international law, based on natural law, in his book Mare Liberum (Free Seas) formulated the new principle that the sea was international territory and all nations were free to use it for seafaring trade
  • Thomas Hobbes (England, 1588-1679) theorized that government is the result of individual actions and human traits, and that it was motivated primarily by "interest", a term which would become crucial in the development of a liberal theory of government and political economy, since it is the foundation of the idea that individuals can be self-governing and self-regulating.
  • Baruch Spinoza (Netherlands, 1632-1677) is in his Tractatus Theologico-Politicus and Tractatus Politicus a proto-liberal defending the value of separation of church and state as well as forms of democracy.
  • The notions of John Locke (United Kingdom, 1632-1704) of a "government with the consent of the governed" and man's natural rights—life, liberty, and estate (property) as well on tolerance,
  • John Trenchard (United Kingdom, 1662-1723) was co-author, with Thomas Gordon of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.
  • Thomas Gordon (United Kingdom, 169?-1750) was co-author, with John Trenchard of Cato's Letters. These newspaper essays condemned tyranny and advanced principles of freedom of conscience and freedom of speech and were a main vehicle for spreading the concepts that had been developed by John Locke.
  • Benjamin Franklin (United States, 1706-1790) was an inventor, scientist, writer, entrepreneur, diplomat and statesman. He called for the end of mercantilism while advocating free trade, industrialization, the abolition of slavery, free public libraries, democratic government and national unity.
  • Jean-Jacques Rousseau (France, 1712-1778) promulgated the idea that men were naturally free, but had to be educated to live in society. This required a natural liberty and a "national will" which could be directed to improvement of the society. He is famous for the quote "men are born free, but are everywhere in chains"

Should I go on. OK good.