Difference between revisions of "Talk:Liberals and friendship"

Revision as of 14:49, March 17, 2008

Liberals aren't friends of Andy?

So let me get this straight. Are you saying that liberals will often, or even usually, only make friends with a conservative for the purpose of converting them? Isn't that ascribing an awful lot of malice without real cause? And where's the evidence for this? I have a number of liberal friends. We argue quite a lot about politics, but it doesn't mean we don't remain friends. Do you have any liberal friends, Andy? SSchultz 22:19, 25 February 2008 (EST)

I'm an apathetic-liberal. So, yes, Mr. Schlafly does have liberal friends. -^_^- Fuzzy 22:42, 25 February 2008 (EST)

And are you his friend only to convert him to your heathen liberal ways? SSchultz 23:17, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Heathen? Does that mean you're saying liberals aren't Christians. I said that I'm apathetic-liberal, meaning I don't have a stance on a lot of political issues but some of my thinking is still sort of liberal. I friends with him, but no a great friend, so it's not like I would be capable of "converting" him. It probably doesn't help that I have a type B personality, right?. -^_^- Fuzzy 08:56, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Another take

A Christian friendship is a friendship on Christian terms, as in requiring acceptance, allowance or lack of criticism of Christian values. It is often the product of peer pressure. Someone in a Christian friendship can expect loss of the friendship if he dares to express dismay or disapproval of the Christian values.

A Christian friendship can occur wherever Christians apply peer pressure to spread their belief system. It can occur in college, in relationships, and in the workplace.

In contrast, atheists virtually never require censorship or acceptance of atheist principles as a condition of friendship.

I like this take, here's another one:

A cheese eating friendship can occur whenever cheese eaters apply peer pressure to spread their belief in eating cheese. It can occur in college, in relationships and in the workplace.

You must eat Feta and Stilton or I won't be your friend anymore, even if you don't like cheese! SSchultz 23:22, 25 February 2008 (EST)

I'm lactose intolerant. Please don't shoot me, okay? Aboganza 23:24, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Die, heretic! SSchultz 23:41, 25 February 2008 (EST)

When I was 15 I became a radical, creationist Christian. This annoyed my athiestic friends, but they chose to stay friends. But when I abandoned the church two years later, I never once heard from people in the youth group again. Maestro 19:42, 16 March 2008 (EDT)

Come on

Are you seriously stating that liberals are only friends with liberals? I know from experience that this is false. I think that it is human nature to naturally be friends with people who agree with you, so people are more likely to be friends with people who agree with them politically. But this trait is not any more likely to be found in a liberal than a conservative, and to suggest that liberals refuse to be friends with people who do not agree with them politically is ridiculous. --Tim (CPAdmin1)^{talk Vote in my NEW polls} 23:31, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Are you calling andy ridiculous, cuz it's his article.KarlJ 23:35, 25 February 2008 (EST)

That's the point, Tim. It seems odd that one should suggest liberals only befriend conservatives for the purpose of converting them. I would expect it's only the lunatic fringe (on both sides of the aisle) that would refuse to be someone's friend only because they hold opposite political views. Most people are friends because of mutual interests and last time I checked politics isn't the sole guiding principle of sports, music, art, literature, or entertainment. SSchultz 23:41, 25 February 2008 (EST)

What I am saying is that it is wrong to claim that liberals are more likely to have friendships like that than conservatives. --Tim (CPAdmin1)^{talk Vote in my NEW polls} 23:42, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Yes, it's a voice of rationality, but conflicts directly with what aschlfly says.KarlJ 23:45, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Tim, I agree with you. Let's try an experiment. Why don't you put that statement into the article and we'll see how long it lasts. SSchultz 23:46, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Which statement. --Tim (CPAdmin1)^{talk Vote in my NEW polls} 23:47, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Schlafly specifically says that this is liberal friendship (all the stuff in the article) and you are saying that it is not unique to liberals.KarlJ 23:48, 25 February 2008 (EST)

KarlJ, if you can't express yourself respectably, then please leave. You won't receive another warning. This is a high-quality site and will continue to be one.--Aschlafly 23:50, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Please excuse me...comment fixed.KarlJ 23:51, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Reply to all above

Folks, a little logic, please? The entry does not say that all liberals behave this way, or even that most do. It does describe a common type of friendship that is hardly disputable.--Aschlafly 23:34, 25 February 2008 (EST)

I agree with you completely, except the "hardly disputable" part. What makes it undisputable?KarlJ 23:36, 25 February 2008 (EST)

So, it's common that liberals befriend conservatives only to convert them to liberal thinking? This really makes it sound like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Do you have any citations for this?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by SSchultz (talk)

Just observe a typical conservative in any organization dominated by liberals, or a typical conservative in a class run by a dominating liberal, or observe anyone married to a determined liberal, and draw your own conclusions. The very term politically correct developed out of a liberal insistence to censor and banish conservative expression.--Aschlafly 23:50, 25 February 2008 (EST)

As I recall, James Carville and Mary Matalin are married and Carville doesn't seem to have converted Matalin into a liberal. Now admittedly if you're a conservative and waltz into PETA or Move On, you're likely to face a lot of pressure, but that's what I said above about the lunatic fringe. I would expect a liberal would face similar pressure walking into a Focus on the Family or People for the American Way meeting. SSchultz 23:54, 25 February 2008 (EST)

First of all, your example of a conservative in a liberal organization. One counterexample does not prove a statement false, and secondly, friendship works in 2 directions, so it is just as much of a counterexample against your liberal friendship idea. Secondly with your anyone married to a determined liberal example. That works both ways as well. The determined liberal is married to their spouse just as much as the spouse is married to the determined liberal. I don't see what political correctness has to do with supposed liberal friendship. --Tim (CPAdmin1)^{talk Vote in my NEW polls} 23:57, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Um, Schultzie, People for the American Way are so left they are practically communists.KarlJ 23:58, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Also, could you give an example of a "liberal friendship" --Tim (CPAdmin1)^{talk Vote in my NEW polls} 00:29, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Cites

Given that no cites or references are offered in this "encyclopedia" entry, why was my unsourced tag taken down? --KimSell 15:33, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Look for cites rather than inserting ideologically motivated tags. Your heading suggests that you don't even understand the entry yet, so try to do that first. Thanks.--Aschlafly 15:35, 26 February 2008 (EST)

The heading was a bad copy/paste error. But how can I look for sources? It appears to be a topic you just invented from the top of your head. Telling others to look for sources is roughly equivalent to me writing a page that headed George W Bush's Meeting With Aliens and then, when people complain that I have no evidence, telling them to get the evidence. I will place the tag back, since you have not provided any evidence. And the only ideology involved is that I want an encyclopedia to be encyclopedic. --KimSell 15:40, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Just spend ten minutes looking. I'm sure I could find some cites in less time, and will do so a bit later this afternoon if you don't. On this site we don't allow ideologically motivated "citation needed" banners or stubs by people who won't even look for cites. Thanks.--Aschlafly 15:49, 26 February 2008 (EST)

This encyclopedia is really starting to baffle me. I made an edit to They, backed it up with references, sources and history, only for it to be reverted. Then, a completely unsourced, unverified page is created, with nothing in the way of support and a simple "uncited" tag is considered "ideologically motivated". The ideology involved is that I think an encyclopedia should be encyclopedic. And this entry simply is not. It is not even close. I thought the aim of this website was to produce a reliable source of information, particularly of use to students in school. I applaud that aim, I really do, but if this page is anything to go by, any student of mine who used a reference from Conservapedia would get a poor grade indeed. Which is a shame, since I like the idea of a more conservative source of information --KimSell 15:57, 26 February 2008 (EST)

There is nothing "baffling" about reverting your misleading edit to they, which made it appear that it is correct as a gender-neutral form of "he" or "she". Anyone who tries that stunt in a respectable writing or English class, or on a college board exam, is going to lose points. Your "sources" for that ungrammatical claim are interesting and worth pursuing, but not at the expense of misleading students here. If Wikipedia allows that, then it may be a better place for you. Note, by the way, that it was not I who reverted your ungrammatical claim.

So, using a standard piece of English grammar as supported by Shakespeare, the KJV Bible, Jane Austen, Thakeray, Mirriam Webster, George Bernard Shaw and the Oxford English disctionary would lose a student points? Not on any exam board that I know about. --KimSell 17:13, 26 February 2008 (EST)

As to this entry, it just went up last night and I will add a source after 10 minutes of research later today, as I said I would. Show some patience, please.--Aschlafly 17:00, 26 February 2008 (EST)

The correct way to go about creating an encyclopedic website is to gather facts and evidence and then to present it. Not the other way around. This way of doing things leads to unsourced, unverified pages. And I know for a fact, that if any student of mine handed in an essay using this page as a reference would definitely lose marks for using untrustworthy sources of information. --KimSell 17:13, 26 February 2008 (EST)

KimSell, your account is going to blocked unless you start contributing here in a substantive way. See Special:Contributions/KimSell. If you choose to leave, Godspeed to you.--Aschlafly 17:22, 26 February 2008 (EST)

"Look for cites rather than inserting ideologically motivated tags." When you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you, not those who you are trying to prove it to. It is your job to find and give citations for your claims, not the job of people who ask you to back up your claims. --Tim (CPAdmin1)^{talk Vote in my NEW polls} 21:31, 26 February 2008 (EST)

Still no references. --KimSell 12:19, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Source

It's been over 24 hours since you promised a source. Where is it, Andy? SSchultz 19:56, 27 February 2008 (EST)

Stop bugging Andy about this, your argument has no point. Hammet 17:12, 1 March 2008 (EST)

Please think logically

I have acquaintances who consider themselves Liberal, and we tend to argue in a good mannered way. However, I have noticed that their inner circle consists of people of similar positions. For example, my best friend at school was conservative until he went to college. At college, he began to drink, smoke, do drugs and engage in other Liberal activities. We keep in touch but he has made new friends in College who smoke, drink and do drugs and who all seem to vote democratic... Coincidence? BenSchumin 07:11, 3 March 2008 (EST)

Still no cites, Andy?

This article should be denoted with a tag stating it needs citations. Per Andy's remarks taking them down last time, "Just spend ten minutes looking. I'm sure I could find some cites in less time, and will do so a bit later this afternoon if you don't." Since nobody has added any since that time, I think this should be tagged or deleted until it can be cleaned up. I would add cites myself, but frankly, I don't think it's an article worthy of being on CP. --Jdellaro 11:39, 3 March 2008 (EST)

So, I joined this site to contribute positively (as I've said on my user page, in this tabula rasa environment, but also to debate civilly with people of different perspectives. I think this page... is not civil, at all, and I resent that someone would make sweeping generalizations like it. Isn't it important that people of different political persuasions learn from each other, and don't just fight mindlessly?-PhoenixWright 13:22, 3 March 2008 (EST)

I'd love to see some cites myself. kitefox

As would I. Barikada 18:41, 4 March 2008 (EST)

The page is a parody, isn't it? It looks like complete rubbish. I can imagine no possible grounds for making such a distinction between "liberal" and "conservative" friendship, other than to parody Conservapedia. Where is the evidence? I suggest either deletion or removal to the Essay space. Humblpi 18:32, 5 March 2008 (EST)

I think a good example of this is Bill Maher and Ann Coulter :) DLerner 09:50, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

Misleading terminology

The phrase "on liberal terms" means generous and accommodating, precisely the opposite of the meaning intended by the present article. Let's avoid this sort of ambiguity and talk turkey. --Ed Poor ^Talk 10:04, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

Where is the evidence?

The article offers no evidence, published or otherwise, in support of its thesis. This was raised over two weeks ago, but the request for sources has remained unanswered. I have looked, and I can find nothing whatsoever to back up this nonsense. I therefore propose the following amendment to the text of the article:

Conservatives often make approval of conservative values a condition of friendship. Someone in a "conservative friendship" can expect loss of the friendship if he dares to express dismay or disapproval of the conservative values.

A conservative friendship can occur wherever conservatives apply peer pressure to spread their belief system. It can occur in college, in relationships, and in the workplace.

In contrast, liberals virtually never require censorship or acceptance of liberal principles as a condition of friendship.

Please, someone, show me the evidence - anything at all - to demonstrate that this version is any less valid than the article as it currently stands. Humblpi 11:46, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

We know Liberals all too well here, Humblpi, and are on to your Liberal tricks. Reflect and improve! Koba 11:50, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

I rather thought my suggestion was precisely a reflection of the article! But seriously - the point is not whether I am indulging in tricks, liberal or otherwise, or whether I believe or agree with what is said - it's simply that the article makes a sweeping assertion about human behavior that is simply not supported by the evidence. Humblpi 11:54, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

Anything can be 'proven' with 'evidence'. Remember, this is Conservapedia. Koba 12:05, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

So why doesn't somebody find the "evidence" and "prove" it? I actually went and looked - I really did - and I found nothing. Nothing. Zilch. No research on correlations between political views and nature of friendship. If there is anything, I'd be very interested to see it. Humblpi 12:14, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

Same here. I got a lot of friends on both sides of the fence. When we disagree, we simply agree that we see things from a different perspective. I've never lost a friend over something as dumb as political views. Football, on the other hand...Maestro 19:43, 16 March 2008 (EDT)

It's been a busy two weeks for me. I apologize for providing sources yet. But it's no secret that liberals insistence on censoring conservative statements and activities as a condition of friendship, marriage, promotion, tenure, etc.--Aschlafly 19:47, 16 March 2008 (EDT)

Ostracize a republican

This cannot be used as proof by any means. If it were the other way around "Ostracize a Democrat", and WP wrote that this shows "can expect loss of the friendship if he dares to express dismay or disapproval of the conservative values", wouldn't you cry bloody murder?

My point is, it's a stupid ANONYMOUS webpage, in could be from one frustrated guy, you can't use it as proof on all liberals. ד.לערנער 20:11, 16 March 2008 (EDT)

No one is claiming anything about all liberals. But what is clear -- and undeniable -- is that some liberals ostracize conservatives, and try to intimidate conservatives by making acceptance of liberal views or lifestyles as a condition of friendship, social acceptance, or advancement in employment. I've added two cites, and more can be find. Please look rather than trying to make excuses for the obvious. Thanks and Godspeed.--Aschlafly 22:46, 16 March 2008 (EDT)

I fail to see how conservatives are different. You make your ideology a practical precondition to not being blocked, and all of category:liberals is dedicatedto ostracizing liberals. As I said to ed poor, Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle... I don't mean to be rude, its just that your source doesn't prove anything unique.-PhoenixWright 00:33, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

It's just a wee bit of a stretch to say that one anecdote about what someone overheard at a party is a good enough citation to support the statement that Someone in a "liberal friendship" can expect loss of the friendship if he dares to express dismay or disapproval of the liberal values. Murray 01:12, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

I'm glad you have found a couple of anecdotes to support your assertion. But I could find just as much support for my alternative position, from sources just as good - but I'm not going to look, because I know that it's meaningless to generalise from a single instance. If the assertion that "liberal friendships" are different from "conservative friendships" is to hold any water at all, it needs better support than this. Or, to put it another way, when I posted my alternative version above, I should perhaps clarify that no one is claiming anything about all conservatives. But what is clear -- and equally undeniable -- is that some conservatives ostracize liberals, and try to intimidate liberals by making acceptance of conservative views or lifestyles a condition of friendship, social acceptance, or advancement in employment. Humblpi 05:46, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

Since it's been a while now...

...and for "references" we still have only two anecdotes, don't we think it's time for this to be moved to the essay namespace? The essay's creation by the founder ought not be the imprimatur of truth, and commandments apply to all, no? I see Andy's been busy, so maybe if he gets actually impressive sources it could be moved back.PhoenixWright 10:49, 17 March 2008 (EDT)