Talk:Mystery:Why Do Non-Conservatives Exist?

Mind Altering Drugs

The suggestion may (or may not) have been made with parodic intent, but I had been thinking along similar lines. It is well-known that use of drugs - 'even' marijuana, which Liberals pretend is less harmful than candy - causes a range of psychiatric illnesses (which may also be hereditary); and I think that maybe between us we could come up with an acceptable form of words. Bugler 15:50, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I agree: that's why in my reversion I suggested that the original contributor expand to put the claim on a firmer foundation. How about, "use of mind-altering drugs, which encourages one to become a liberal to reconcile the cognitive dissonance, or dulls mental acuity resulting in mindless conformity," or something like that.-AlexanderM 15:52, 13 December 2008 (EST)

That sounds good to me. Bugler 15:54, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Thanks! Done.-AlexanderM 15:56, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Lots of insights in this list. I wonder if it would be possible to estimate percentages for each reason.--aschlafly 15:59, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Thanks! I expect media/school bias, along with liberal friendship & mindless rebellion, are some of the biggest contributors.-AlexanderM 16:09, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Any estimates would probably be just a guess so I suggest a data gathering exercise. If someone could set up a sub-page with a list of the options then we could all think of the non-conservatives that we are familiar with at school, work or in some cases even at home. Then we could just give one point for the reason that we would estimate for each person. I think the demographic diversity here should be sufficient to build a fairly accurate picture. This sort of thing wouldn't be allowed at WP with their dogmatic No Original Research mantra. So it highlights a real difference between us and WP in that we can generate new insights through a group effort as it would give almost everyone the opportunity to contribute. BrianCo 16:55, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Applying clear numbers to it is probably impossible, since many of the causes effect any individual. Everyone is subject to the bias in media, academia, etc..., while only some have the poor thinking skills, innate naivete, and simply, pure delusion that creates the radicals members of the far left whom we all love and tolerate. - Rod Weathers 17:00, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Probably so. But note that even the most powerful bias requires something extra to close the mind as well. Of course aging seems to have an effect of closing the mind automatically for many.--aschlafly 16:12, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Mental endowments are certainly a key reason (see The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of Political Madness). A certain demographic is inherently irrational and childlike. - Rod Weathers 16:14, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I saw that on WND: I'll try to find time to read it over the break.AlexanderM 16:16, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Organization

I've tried to compact and organize it, to make it easier to grasp. Please improve. - Rod Weathers 16:27, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Great point. I think we need prioritized sections, like "Main Reasons", separated from "Other Reasons." Feel free to improve.--aschlafly 16:35, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Great job Rod!-AlexanderM 18:01, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Wow

Okay, if this isn't a parody, then it's just scary. It makes multiple errors in it's assumptions, characterizes liberals as "weak-minded" or just unthinkingly "rebellious", and heavily insists that being Non-conservative is "wrong", and that if you're not a conservative, then you are brainwashed simple thinker. Does the author realize that there are opposing views to conservatism that are not liberal? Does he realize that some liberals are quite intelligent, and have reasons for being liberal that are based on logic? I like to think of myself as a moderate conservative, but the reasons highlighted in this list serve only to make me ashamed of that. ShawnJ 16:37, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Shawn, the tenor and content of your rant (and it is 'its assumptions', not 'it's assumptions') lead us to suppose that you are very far from being a Conservative of any hue. If you held sincere beliefs, you would not be ashamed of them because of third party actions. And if you were one of those mythical 'quite intelligent liberals', you might be capable of opening up your mind to new ideas, rather than rejecting them out of hand. Bugler 16:44, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Right, Bugler. ShawnJ's talk lack substance. But perhaps it can be analyzed: why isn't ShawnJ a real conservative? His reference to liberals being "quite intelligent" suggests he aspires to be considered likewise. I sense the public school rationales at work here: the "A+" went to the liberal positions, and either ShawnJ received a few himself and cannot let go of the illusion, or he's a wannabee.--aschlafly 18:57, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Bugler, I consider myself a conservative because I was raised in a strictly conservative family, and while I don't agree with all of their positions, I still do agree with many of them. Hence me considering myself a "moderate" conservative. My whole issue with this article is it reads as an attack on non-conservatives, in no small way calling them worse people. It is a complete error to refer to all liberals as stupid, or unthinking, or ignorantly rebellious. It's the same flaw that racism and all forms of bigotry share. Trying to apply absolutes to beliefs and personalities simply doesn't hold up under closer inspection. Perhaps if you were secure in your conservative beliefs, you might be capable of opening up your mind to new ideas, instead of rejecting them because they come from someone with different political views than your own. Aschlafly, I addressed most of your argument in my reply to Bugler, but for the record, most of my "A+"s went to Math and Physics. It's really hard to put a political spin on calculations and numbers. ShawnJ 19:52, 13 December 2008 (EST)

ShawnJ, take a look at our new statistical portion of the entry. Which category do you fall into, or should there be a new one? For example, did you hear about conservative principles and the logic behind them only after you made up your mind? Do you have liberal friends whose acceptance you value?

If you got "A+"s in school, regardless of subject, then your self-esteem is likely tied to approval by the very liberal education establishment. You'd have to feel embarrassment if your teachers learned that you might become a real conservative. And your self-esteem would not permit that, right?--aschlafly 20:37, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Wait a sec--you're saying that people who get "A"s in school tend to be liberal? So would that make the converse true--that conservatives would tend to get low(er) grades? That can't be right...--RossC 22:18, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Ooooh, SO close, but no cigar! The arguments is that liberals know that professors are liberal - see professor values - and conform their behavior & values deliberately to the professor's to get better grades not for substance, but because they agree with the professor's worldview. It's not that they're smart; they're just playing the game.-AlexanderM 22:22, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I gotta say, my personal experiences negate any of the categories in the statistical portion. I simply realized, over time, that conservatism didn't hold all the answers. That, surprise, there was no perfect school of political thought. All this talk about the "liberal education system" is funny to me, because, honestly, I couldn't give you the political leanings of ANY of my teachers/professors. Who they did/would vote for, their stances on gun control, abortion, homosexuality, government, it simply never came up. I'm sure there was some rule on the books preventing teachers from discussing such things, and they were followed. The military upbringing put me in many different schools in various parts of the country, domestic and abroad, and not a single one broke that rule. Granted, I never sought out my instructors political beliefs, but the never volunteered them either. They were there do their job of teaching me, and I was there to do mine of learning.

As far as my friends go, they fall much into the same boat. I hang out with them to relax after work. Watch a game, play a game, maybe throw a party, whatever, not to have heated arguments that won't resolve anything.ShawnJ 23:36, 13 December 2008 (EST)

ShawnJ, you probably vote and so do your friends and teachers; you adhere to certain values and so do your friends and teachers; and you make statements of a political nature just as your friends and teachers do. I'm sure you've taken courses in economics, history, government, English literature, and science, and it is impossible to teach or learn those topics without forming opinions that affirm or deny conservative principles. Perhaps you were unaware of it at the time, but with an open mind you can reconsider it now.

Your teachers voted overwhelmingly for Barack Obama, to take just one example, and they taught you things consistent with their view. I'd guess that 50% of what you learned in school was false, and those of who care about the truth embark on a path to revisit and reconsider all of it. I encourage you to join us.--aschlafly 10:43, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Ohkay.........

Erm, i understand the bit about all those TV shows and the media in general, but mind-altering drugs?, isn't that just taking it a bit too far (i mean in terms of accusations, how the heck would Obama put drugs in everyone's cookies, i mean, he's busy enough as it is dealing with conniving madmen like the governor from Illinois with the weird name (apologies for the long sentence)--[[User:PhilipV|PhilipV]] 17:14, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Who is talking about Obama here? The effects of drug abuse are well known. Bugler 17:33, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I think he meant Blagovejich :)-AlexanderM 18:00, 13 December 2008 (EST)

PhilipV's comments are bizarre. But why is PhilipV a non-conservative, do you think?--aschlafly 18:59, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Sounds like he's trying to apologize for drug use.-AlexanderM 19:02, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Alex, I find that accusation offensive! ----PhilipV ^{I Support our Troops!} 12:28, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Come to think of it, how on earth is that an apology for drug use/abuse/misuse? if i had used such works of the devil (which they are) i would probably have voted Democrat so that i could have continued using illegal drugs - but no - i voted republcan this year and my political compass test says that im a right-wing authoritarian.----PhilipV ^{I Support our Troops!} 12:28, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Seriously?

Hmmm... in this article I see Liberal Style 21. Why must we try to make liberals seem less intelligent than conservatives? If the positions of Conservatism are much more logical than the positions of Liberalism... shouldn't that be self-evident? Why do we need to bash down liberals, calling them sheeple? And since when were issues like race and poverty "simple"? DM 17:44, 13 December 2008 (EST)

You seem to be bothered by the intelligence issue also, like another above. Please see my comments above.

Race and poverty are easier-to-grasp issues than globalism. There's no denying that.--aschlafly 19:05, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Let us tackle race, firstly. What race is President Obama? Black? No, he's not black. He's African-American. Now what's the difference? I would consider someone who is African-American to be an American who immigrated from Africa or is of African descent. Now who is Black? Black people are the descendants of Africans who were kidnapped and brought to the New World to work as slaves. Now, Barack Obama is descended from an African man. Thus, he can be called African-American. But he is not a descendant of Africans who were slaves, thus he is not Black. Is this just a difference of their places in history? No. Black people are of West African descent exclusively. They didn't sail to the other side of Africa to kidnap slaves. President Obama is of East African descent. Hmmm.

So is race a simple issue? DM 23:56, 13 December 2008 (EST)

It is extremely simple to millions of non-conservatives, who do not care one bit about the distinctions you attempt to draw in your comments.--aschlafly 10:46, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Race CAN be complex. I don't think we're arguing that it's not. However, globalism & the global economy, as well as the complex relationship between taxes & economic growth, can be harder to grasp for some liberals. That's all we're arguing (please correct me if I'm wrong Aschlafly).-AlexanderM 10:56, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Morally depraved nature

Why do sinners sin? It is because they have a sinful nature. I think this mystery article totally lacks a greater focus on man's sinful nature apart from God and also neglects to mention the grace and redemptive work of Christ and the Holy Spirit. I think this is rather odd for a encyclopedia which prominently features an article by the Christian Post through its main page which states that Conservapedia favors Christianity. conservative 22:16, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Statistical Analysis

Ok I know this is a mystery and not an encyclopedic article but could we please get one or two cites for the statistical analysis section since it would be very interesting to read the studies that that was based off of --WillB 22:47, 13 December 2008 (EST)

My political alignment

Ahem, I am a conservative (just see some of my userboxes, and i am against abortion, and i support classroom prayer too) and another thing, my comments were somewhat misguided. When you said mind-altering drugs, i thought you were implying that Obama and company were putting drugs of some sort into everyone's food. ----PhilipV ^{I Support our Troops!} 12:24, 14 December 2008 (EST)

But why on earth would you suspect any such thing was implied? Surely it is clear that it meant voluntarily-ingested illegal drugs? Bugler 12:30, 14 December 2008 (EST)