Difference between revisions of "Talk:Natural science"

Revision as of 16:14, May 7, 2007

Irony

Isn't it it sort of ironic to reference a creationist on the 'science' page?

For extra kicks: How often Apologie Educational Ministries are used as reference ;) I only made that search after a few blogs pointed it out. --Sid 3050 19:01, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Peer review

Conservatives referencing science! This is like a construction company trying to build a modern building with a primitive hammer and wooden rivets, consulting from architectural plans interpreted through Aramaic, Greek, Latin and then English of whose origins you do not know and whose different pages contradict themselves. Personally I would much rather trust information that was obtained using only the soundest of scientific methods that was many times over peer reviewed and tested many times over accounting for as many variables as possible. Don't trust this method? You already do when you fly in a plane or drive your car (thermodynamics, aerodynamics, chemistry, metallurgy, physics, etc.) For peer reviewed information go back to school or consult wikepedia. For amusement, browse your heart away here!

Peer review is no guarantee of correctness. It just means an article is good enough to be checked by other scientists. If an article fails peer review, it is either because (1) the research was so poorly conducted or described that there's no point in other scientists bothering with it, or (2) it represents such a challenge to established scientific belief that the journal chooses to suppress it. --Ed Poor 08:27, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Woah!!! PoV. How about "(2) Results are not supported by results from other researchers and cannot be explained according to our current understanding. Therefore, there is a good chance that the results are erroneous". If the data are good enough, they will be published. There is no incentive on a journal to suppress research just because it doesn't fit the paradigm. The only incentive is for the journal to not publish high-profile research which is later proved to be wrong, which is embarrassing for the journal. Aloysius 09:51, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

There is evidence that journals do decline publishing ideas that go against the currently-popular paradigm. Philip J. Rayment

I don't deny it. But Ed seems to be assigning some sinister motive on the part of the journals - suppressing new results - which isn't necessarily true. There is a reason why the currently-popular paradigm is currently popular - it's because that explanation is the one that, in the opinion of the majority of researchers in that field, best fits the available data. Any findings which run counter to the paradigm need to have exceptionally good evidence to support them. A journal won't want to run a "The current paradigm is completely wrong" paper if there's any chance that it will turn out that the paper is wrong, because that reflects badly on the journal's editor. In summary, the peer review system isn't perfect, but Ed's wording there presents a highly biased point of view (which is, of course, contrary to conservapedia rules). Aloysius 11:28, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm not assigning sinister motives, but I do recall multiple instances of scientists whose papers were rejected - for reasons other than shoddy research or poor writing. Science and Nature do it all the time. And journal editors have been forced to resign for daring to publish well-written, carefully researched studies.

This is nothing new. The history of science is littered with it. I'm reading Farley Mowat's 1963 book Never Cry Wolf, in which he exposes prejudice in the scientific establishment in Canada. People lose their jobs when they upset the applecart, especially when they use the leverage of facts (see Whistleblower). --Ed Poor 11:37, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

There seems to be a common fallacy that scientists are all about maintaining the status quo. But new discoveries are the driving force in science. New discoveries are what win Nobel prizes, and get big research grants, and get papers in prestigious journals. The peer review/paradigm system introduces a certain amount of inertia into the system which can be counterproductive (occasionally good research can be rejected initially) but in most instances helps to winnow out anomalous or wrong results. Aloysius 11:45, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

"Operational" v "Historical" science.

My edit in this regard was reverted [1]. The only people who make this distinction are creationists. Philosophers of science don't. You won't find this distinction discussed anywhere other than on creationist websites, and it doesn't show up in Popper, Kunn, Lakatos, Quine or anyone other philsopher of note in the area. JoshuaZ 10:55, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

To be taken seriously

Just as at Wikipedia, we here at Conservapedia require statements about what "most scientists think" to be backed up by reliable sources.

So Joshua's opinion [2] is irrelevant.

If Joshua is giving his opinion, because he thinks it is true and relevant, that can be tolerated, but only if (1) it helps explain the topic to the reader and (2) can be shown to be true by verifiable references.

I do hope that our visitors from Wikipedia will not lower their editorial standards when they come over here. We are now new and terribly understaffed. We have possibly ten good writers, while Wikipedia has thousands. If there are any good writers who are knowledgeable about science, they can help us if that's what they want to do. --Ed Poor 10:56, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Ed, in that case the entire section should be removed since the source is by no means reliable. Again, if you think anyone does this, I challenge you to find this distinction in any work by any serious philosopher of science. You won't find it. JoshuaZ 10:59, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

What source is unreliable? That sounds like what Wikipedian POV-pushers say, when they want to censor ideas they personally dislike.

We don't do that here, because scientific censorship is untrustworthy. --Ed Poor 11:03, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Hey Ed, did you happen to look at the cite for that statement that Joshua changed? It has nothing to do with the differentiation of types of sciences. I believe Philip may have placed the wrong link in for his cite of the two different types. I am actually interested in this since I have never heard a distinction between what is considered "Operational science" and "Origins science" Have to say it is news to me but then again I have been in the sciences for 20+ years and could have missed it.--TimS 11:05, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

2 to 1, ED is winning. --Will N. 11:06, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Ed You assert that calling a source unreliable is " sounds like what Wikipedian POV-pushers say, when they want to censor ideas they personally dislike". Why then is the Talk Origins Archive is so frowned upon on a source here? Note that even creationwiki by the way agrees that the distinction between operational and historical science is one used by creationists: [http://creationwiki.org/Science | this entry says "Creationists, unlike many anticreationists, differentiate between operational science with origins science" At minimum, to take Sarfati's claim uncritically is uncalled for. In fact, if Conservapedia accepted all claims as uncritically this wiki would quickly become a free for all. Suggested rewording "according to Young Earth Creationist Jonathan Sarfati there are two types of sciece: operational science and historical science" And I again invite you to look for any serious philsci that makes this distinction. Its even more unworkable than strict Popperism. JoshuaZ 11:10, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

TimS, can you clarify what you mean about the citation?

I deliberately did not write that section to say that "science is subdivided into two types, but that it can be. Does anyone dispute that it can be? I would consider it self-evident that there is a distinction between the two, which means that it can be subdivided according to that distinction. The fact that most evolutionists refuse to recognise a distinction that clearly exists only shows them in a bad light.

In fact, tonight I watched the DVD of a debate between a creationists and an evolutionist, and the evolutionist, whilst not using those terms, did acknowledge that with evolution one can't reproduce the results like one can with other fields of science, thus tacitly admitting that such a distinction exists.

Philip J. Rayment 11:20, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Philip, the citation does not illustrate the difference between the two types of sciences it asserts. It lists evolution as an origin science but disregards the fact that TOE has allowed for expansion to germ theory and also to virology. So that would place it in the operational sciences category. If you followed the literal interpretation of what was stated on the page all sciences would be considered operational, they contribute to modern society. --TimS 11:34, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

I am sorry about the "Can be" and "Is" point. You are correct and I respect that you did not wish to assert something as fact without the evidence.--TimS 11:34, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Ed we already have good writers who are knowledgeable about science, Conservative and Philip_J._Rayment. If anyone needs help with science articles I suggest people get in touch with them. Auld Nick 11:37, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

Auld, I will admit that Philip takes the time out to learn about the science before writing , however I would disagree about conservative. He tends to quote and misunderstand the what he is writing against.--TimS 11:40, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

TimS, I assume that you are talking about reference 4. Surely the text under "Confusing ‘origins science’ with ‘operational science’; the real origins of science" of that link does cover what we are talking about?

If it is true that germ theory and virology have grown out of evolution (which I would dispute), all that means is that those fields are 'operational science', not that evolution is. But I could show you quotes from evolutionists admitting that evolution has not contributed much to "real" science.

Philip J. Rayment 11:55, 7 May 2007 (EDT)

I do refer to reference 4. It has many generalizations but no substantial evidence to support its claims nor does it give reference to the position outside of creationistic POV. Therefore it is another matter of POV vs empirical evidence.

Please withhold the quotes, there have been many scientists that have been misquoted or have their quotes taken out of context of what they were saying, quote mining is not a substitution for empirical evidence. I know not a molecular biologist that would say otherwise in regards to evolution's contribution to the understanding of Germ theory or Virology. In fact, many medications for the treatment of HIV are based on the evidence of HIV evolving resistance to the medications, due to the mechanisms discussed in TOE. Many antibiotics are also developed with this understanding of how bacteria evolve, once again through the mechanisms describe in the TOE, and are more effective at treating a patient. So the science behind the TOE is something applicable to the modern world and therefore would fall under the definition of operational sciences discussed in the article. However, consider that the distinction is only applied by those of the creationist POV and shown to only be useful in a broad meaning of sciences.--TimS 12:14, 7 May 2007 (EDT)