Difference between revisions of "Talk:Public school culture"

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(Reply re: reversion)
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:Where did you get that last little tidbit of information (above grade level restrictions). As I said prior, every school I have ever seen, heard of, or interacted with had advanced courses. In middle school I was placed on a 2 year advanced mathematics track, doing Algebra I (a freshman highschool course) at 7th grade. As a Junior, I have just completed two semesters of College level calculus in less than a semester and a half. It is not just my school, almost all schools offer Advanced Placement courses of some form. Some do not offer as many as others due to budget, faculty, and interest limitations, but nearly all do offer some form of it. As to the involvement aspect, do you have any statistics to justify your statements? High schools offer a wide variety of sports (at many different levels from intramural to Varsity) as well as clubs (subject based clubs, service clubs, political clubs, academic teams, and yes, religious clubs). As the wide range of new ideas, high school classrooms are often a place of debate. I know that in my classroom we have debated regarding thousands of subjects, and new, never before heard ideas to most of the class came up. I don't know where you get the idea that highschool is some form of brain washing, it is more the encouragement of intellectual pursuit. (As to the classroom prayer, students are 100% allowed to pray as they so desire, and form prayer clubs (we have one). The school simple cannot force a child to pray or allow a child to force another child to pray. This is protecting all religions and all individuals 1st amendment rights. If a muslim teacher tried to force your child to pray to Allah, would you oppose it?)
 
:Where did you get that last little tidbit of information (above grade level restrictions). As I said prior, every school I have ever seen, heard of, or interacted with had advanced courses. In middle school I was placed on a 2 year advanced mathematics track, doing Algebra I (a freshman highschool course) at 7th grade. As a Junior, I have just completed two semesters of College level calculus in less than a semester and a half. It is not just my school, almost all schools offer Advanced Placement courses of some form. Some do not offer as many as others due to budget, faculty, and interest limitations, but nearly all do offer some form of it. As to the involvement aspect, do you have any statistics to justify your statements? High schools offer a wide variety of sports (at many different levels from intramural to Varsity) as well as clubs (subject based clubs, service clubs, political clubs, academic teams, and yes, religious clubs). As the wide range of new ideas, high school classrooms are often a place of debate. I know that in my classroom we have debated regarding thousands of subjects, and new, never before heard ideas to most of the class came up. I don't know where you get the idea that highschool is some form of brain washing, it is more the encouragement of intellectual pursuit. (As to the classroom prayer, students are 100% allowed to pray as they so desire, and form prayer clubs (we have one). The school simple cannot force a child to pray or allow a child to force another child to pray. This is protecting all religions and all individuals 1st amendment rights. If a muslim teacher tried to force your child to pray to Allah, would you oppose it?)
 
  [[User:AndrasK|AndrasK]] 14:00, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
 
  [[User:AndrasK|AndrasK]] 14:00, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
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:: As to classroom prayer, if a group of students attempt to pray together at the beginning of the class, then they would be censored and probably disciplined.  At one school last year, the valedictorian was thanking God (or Jesus) during her own speech and the school officials turned off the microphone.  So either you're in [[liberal denial]] or your clueless about this.
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:: As to your other points, public school students are generally not allowed to take courses above grade level.  There are some AP courses available to high school students at various grades, but that does not contradict the general rule as stated.  Also, activity participation by public school students is probably less than average by teenagers.  Finally, you omitted the main point: an alarming percentage of public school students simply drop out.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 14:13, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Revision as of 12:13, 4 May 2008

Where are you getting this information from? I am in public school and do not fit into ANY of those categories... AndrasK: 22:26 April 27 (EDT)

Same here. --transResident Transfanform! 22:27, 27 April 2008 (EDT)

I can usually recognize someone as being from public school by (i) his or her fashion, (ii) his or her demeanor, and (iii) his or her outlook as conveyed by body language. Sometimes I need them to say something, and that reveals the remainder. I'm not kidding. The culture is pronounced.--Aschlafly 22:35, 27 April 2008 (EDT)

Your experiences justify making enormous generalizations? AndrasK: 22:37 April 27 (EDT)

It's a culture. Objective observations can be made about cultures. Are you trying to censor that?--Aschlafly 22:38, 27 April 2008 (EDT)
Ok first of all, stop accusing me of trying to censor anything just because I am pointing out flaws in your Modus Operandi. And that is one example of high school culture. There are other aspects of high school culture, and I will add them to the article. AndrasK: 22:41 April 27 (EDT)

I dont think what you describe is 'Public school culture' andy. It is just modern fashion, popular music taste expressed through fashion etc. jeez, 40 years ago you could say so called 'public school culture' was long hair and bell bottoms. What you describe is modern culture. It is apart from schooling. Unless you're homeschooled and dont associate with modern culture. AdenJ 06:11, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

Eye contact

My excuse for not looking someone in the eye is the same as Japanese culture: a sign of respect.

The other reason might be because they are afraid of their true selves and being "figured out" by others. Kektk 18:39, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

Non-Cultural?

How are those points you removed uncultural, ASchlafly? It just looks like you removed all of the positive ones. FernoKlump 10:26, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

Hmm, good point. How is joining clubs/sports along with being pro-homosexual not part of public school culture? Aren't a lot of home schoolers barred from joining clubs even though they are "enrolled" in the school? -^_^- Kektk 10:30, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
The list is not about what people can join, but what their "culture" is (such as style, views, etc.).--Aschlafly 14:38, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
OK, I re-added some and reworded so it reflects "culture" FernoKlump 18:46, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

Another laughable page

Please can you tell me something? This site is supposed to be an encyclopedia, isnt it? The function of an encyclopedia is, as I understand it, to act as a reference for facts. This is just another list of things that someone doesn't like and likes to imagine describes another group.

As I understand it, part of the function of this website is to act as a learning resource and as something young people can use to research projects or homework from school. Given that pages like this keep appearing, do we honestly believe that any teacher who follows a reference to conservapedia will think that this is a site that is worth referencing in a piece of work? I can tell you, if someone I teach gave me a quote or a reference from an "encyclopedia" that contained this sort of thing, I would mark them down quite heavily. More so even than I would if they used Wikipedia, and my classes know that wikipedia is NOT a good source for referencing, but at least they TRY to have some sort of support for the claims they make on the pages.

Please, please please can we pull ourselves together and realise that lists like this are NOT encyclopedic in nature and should, at the very least, be labelled as some sort of talk or debate page. Otherwise we will drive away people looking for serious information.--KimSell 13:53, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

KimSell - you obviously know that access to opinion is often stifled in educational environments. I'm glad to see you have advised your students about referencing Wikipedia, but opinions on the actual schools they are attending - and the quality thereof - would be hard for them to find. It's important that your students understand the poor environment they are in, and so this is, indeed, an encyclopediac entry, and it should stay as is. There's enough liberal opinion out there, let's at least have some balance against it. NormanTebbitt 14:31, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
Well put, Norman. Kim, give me a lineup of students, and I can pick out the public school ones based on their appearance and, if necessary, some general conversation. That's objectively observable. It's not opinion. Let's not censor it.--Aschlafly 14:37, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
Sorry Andy, but a completely unsubstantiated claim about what you can do is NOT evidence of anything. Icould say that I can tell a Frenchman by the way his toes are, but we dont have an article called French Toes do we? No. Because it is not encyclopedic in nature.--KimSell 16:53, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
It is not a matter of denying them access to opinions. Opinions are fine. They have their place. But NOT in something that claims to be an encyclopedia. And sorry, but "soome guy on the internet says he can tell a public school student" does NOT make an article encyclopedic in nature. Open any real world encyclopedia and find me an article even slightly similar to this "article". You won't be able to do it, because real encyclopedias require something more than the opinion of some guy on the web. --KimSell 16:51, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

Reversions by ASchlafly

Could you please explain why "An emphasis on social development" should not be in the article? You have reverted it twice, and as far as I can tell you have not given any explanation. Thank you. FernoKlump 21:02, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

There is nothing about the "public school culture" that embodies "an emphasis on social development." What does that phrase have in mind? Gang initiation? Drug use? It's absurd.--Aschlafly 22:00, 2 May 2008 (EDT)
Uhh actually high school is heavily involved with social development. In highschool one learns to communicate and interact efficiently and effectively with one's peers. One learns social rules regarding limits with different types of individuals (how to interact with students vs relaxed teachers vs strict teachers vs administrators). Highschool demands the acquisition of group and team skills and the ability to work together. These are all essential parts of social development. Where you get the idea that public schools are all gangs and drugs I have no idea. In a recent anonymous survey at my highschool, only about ~30-35% admit to trying drugs, and only about 5% admit to using drugs weekly. Despite what you may think, public schools develop crucial interaction and social skills that home schooled students often lack. AndrasK 22:17, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

So factual info is now liberal bias? AdenJ 23:50, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

None of the items that you removed, Aschlafly, were non-cultural. Your edit was just a removal of all positive points. FernoKlumpLeave Death Threats Here 00:03, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

I am with you Ferno. But no good will come of it. This project is doomed as it is totally unbelievable. AdenJ 00:07, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

May I ask why you (Schalfly) decided to remove the references to interest in certain subjects? Most if not all high schools offer advanced courses (if not AP/IB courses such as my highschool). These courses allow and promote students to pursue a deeper understanding of subjects that interest them. High schools are completely about promoting education and passion regarding knowledge and learning. I know that courses at my high school certainly have built a passion for my friends and I. I, for one, English, History, Physics, and Mathematics at a much more personal level than ever before. I absolutely love mathematics and am fascinated by it. Most people I have spoken to have some subject of passion born from such courses. Just because the bullet said something positive about public schools, does not make it wrong. AndrasK 11:21, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Aschlafly, we all know you hate public school but that doesn't mean there aren't any positive points to it. Those items are indeed cultural. Being "not particularly 'public school'" is not a reason for removal because several of the negative points are not necessarily public school either. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 13:27, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Reply re: reversion

  • Having a wide range of new ideas, both positive and negative
There is very little diversity of ideas in the public school culture. For example, it's difficult to find a single public school student who even realizes that classroom prayer has been censored, let alone oppose the censorship.
  • Involvement in various sports events and other participation
No more than any other student culture. On a percentage basis, actually, probably less.
  • Membership to social groups such as chess clubs or more important groups such as school council or editing a student newspaper which helps social development
Ditto.
  • Genuine interest in math, literature, science, history, etc.
This is absurd. An alarming percentage of public school students drop out. Public schools even have rules against taking courses above grade level.--Aschlafly 13:41, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Where did you get that last little tidbit of information (above grade level restrictions). As I said prior, every school I have ever seen, heard of, or interacted with had advanced courses. In middle school I was placed on a 2 year advanced mathematics track, doing Algebra I (a freshman highschool course) at 7th grade. As a Junior, I have just completed two semesters of College level calculus in less than a semester and a half. It is not just my school, almost all schools offer Advanced Placement courses of some form. Some do not offer as many as others due to budget, faculty, and interest limitations, but nearly all do offer some form of it. As to the involvement aspect, do you have any statistics to justify your statements? High schools offer a wide variety of sports (at many different levels from intramural to Varsity) as well as clubs (subject based clubs, service clubs, political clubs, academic teams, and yes, religious clubs). As the wide range of new ideas, high school classrooms are often a place of debate. I know that in my classroom we have debated regarding thousands of subjects, and new, never before heard ideas to most of the class came up. I don't know where you get the idea that highschool is some form of brain washing, it is more the encouragement of intellectual pursuit. (As to the classroom prayer, students are 100% allowed to pray as they so desire, and form prayer clubs (we have one). The school simple cannot force a child to pray or allow a child to force another child to pray. This is protecting all religions and all individuals 1st amendment rights. If a muslim teacher tried to force your child to pray to Allah, would you oppose it?)
AndrasK 14:00, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
As to classroom prayer, if a group of students attempt to pray together at the beginning of the class, then they would be censored and probably disciplined. At one school last year, the valedictorian was thanking God (or Jesus) during her own speech and the school officials turned off the microphone. So either you're in liberal denial or your clueless about this.
As to your other points, public school students are generally not allowed to take courses above grade level. There are some AP courses available to high school students at various grades, but that does not contradict the general rule as stated. Also, activity participation by public school students is probably less than average by teenagers. Finally, you omitted the main point: an alarming percentage of public school students simply drop out.--Aschlafly 14:13, 4 May 2008 (EDT)