Difference between revisions of "Talk:Vaccine"

Revision as of 00:29, November 25, 2009

I'm surprised. This is an acceptable article. Liπus the Turbogeek^{(contact me)} 13:37, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

Yes. it is. It actually tells me something.--British_cons (talk) 13:49, 5 April 2007 (EDT)

Blaylock Wellness Report

Parts of the paragraph that used the Blaylock Wellness Report as a source is very questionable. The website itself is a promotion for subscribing to a paid newsletter; it has "points" that says why vaccine is bad - but no logical evidence to back it up. Discover "the truth behind Gulf War Syndrome"? A website like that shouldn't be trusted, let alone used as a source. ATang 15:12, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

Gardasil

The source cited for the connection between Gardisil and deaths explicitly states that no connection has been proven. I'm going to remove this bullet. -- Aaronp

The bullet has been restored. If you had read the article further down, you would have seen that the article writer was improperly accepting as two-plus-two-equals-four-level fact the boilerplate from the manufacturer and from the health authority, each of whom has an ax to grind. And you would have seen dissenting opinions, from a patient advocacy group and from a general practitioner who expressed grave doubts about the applicability to adolescent girls of a safety study conducted on adult women.

The over-reliance on vaccination for the avoidance of diseases best avoided by other means will probably be the subject of an Essay someday. For now, the bullet stands, following a proper critical reading of the source.--TerryH^Talk 22:14, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Fletcher and Oakley - from the patient advocacy group, and a GP, respectively - simply stated that the effects of the vaccine on adolescents are unknown - meaning they themselves haven't established the link purported in this article. I'd like to see the actual report from Judicial Watch that the news article was referring to though; since the news article itself did not cite it, I find the entire Telegraph article suspect. ATang 12:36, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Sorry, but you miss a vital element in the Hippocratic Oath: Never bring harm upon anyone. In latin, primum non nocere. First of all, do no harm. By that standard, a physician who does anything to a patient without first verifying that that thing is safe is behaving in an irresponsible manner. But modern medicine has forgotten that lesson and in that manner has gone completely off the rails. And Gardasil is a prime example.--TerryH^Talk 14:00, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

This detracts from the point that I haven't seen what the "link" is - i.e. the cited article is a secondary source and therefore not strong enough to justify the statement in this article regarding vaccines.

The Oath also mentions not cutting out stones as well.

In all seriousness, it is simply impossible to verify the safety of any drugs completely before phase IV clinical trials - meaning after the drugs has been marketed. Unless you test the drug on every single person on earth and obtain a reading on it, no drug is "safe". Patient care is always riddled with uncertainty - and if physicians waits until he's 100% all the time, they'd actually do more harm to patients by their inaction. That's when professional judgment and experience comes in.

And to bring this back to our original discussion about _this_ article - all drugs have adverse reactions. Stating that Gardasil "has now been linked to a number of sudden deaths reported within days of its administration" from a news article (as opposed to a medical journal) is just a cheap, baseless way of attacking vaccines. ATang 15:08, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Would you give that drug to your daughter?

I've read medical journals. They are not the platinum standard of scientific inquiry that you believe them to be. I have personally seen The New England Journal of Medicine duped big-time by someone—at Duke University, no less—pulling a total dry-lab job. Imagine the mortification of the senior professor who signed off on that person's papers, and even put his name on them, when he found out years later what a puerile fraud his student had been, and had to issue retractions.

And I have seen other things get into The New England Journal of Medicine from "investigators" who were all on drug-company payrolls. I cite RU-486 as a prime example.

And that's just one journal, a journal that I might add already had developed an unsavory reputation among teaching-hospital staffers, from the chairman level through the attending level and on down to the residents, for scholarship that was less than sterling. I cannot even repeat their toilet-humor pun on the journal's name—at least, not here I can't.

Those who comment on, and especially those who make, public policy would be a lot more effective if they would just do a little bit of critical reading every now and then.--TerryH^Talk 15:19, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Again, I'm trying to improve the validity of this article by analyzing the references, not arguing for or against the efficacy or hazards of the vaccine. Why do you ask me whether I'd give the vaccine to my daughter? Unless my answer is going to be part of this article, it is absolutely irrelevant. (For your information, I do not have any children, and if I had a daughter I will not give her the shot before the age of 16. When she's reached that age she'll make her own decision regarding the shot.)

If you cite a primary source, it'd remove any potential bias that inherently exists in secondary sources. All I've been trying to say is that you should read that news article with the same attitude as you should with medical journals - with a grain of salt. Especially given the gravity of the statement - that the deaths has been linked to the vaccine - I believe we need something a little more than a news article. ATang 22:29, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

The article gives some damaging evidence of a correlation. And while correlation does not equal causation, those quoted as denying the causal link would be motivated frankly to lie about the causal link. They include the manufacturer and a health-authority bureaucrat who wants to protect the justification of his mandate and budget.

I asked you whether you'd give your daughter the shot, if you had one, because I wanted to put the matter into a perspective that, all too often, public policymakers ignore. I appreciate your stepping up to the plate—though if you want the advice of one who once associated with the white smocks on a regular basis, I'd say that the time to safeguard any young woman from the hazards either of the shot or the thing that the shot is supposed (har-de-har-har) to protect against is about ten years earlier than any age of hypothetical "emancipation." This after-the-fact pilltaking and muscle-jabbing and mainlining that doctors recommend these days is doing nothing to treat the underlying causes of sickness and, in my opinion as an "expert emeritus," is making our society even sicker.--TerryH^Talk 23:00, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

MMR

DouglasA. I am not 'pushing a socialist agenda' I am pointing out the facts. If THIS contradicts YOUR agenda then it is not my problem. The article originally cited makes no mention whatsoever of MMR which is exactly the topic under discussion in that section. That article may have in the NHS page but not here. To try and extend the point being made by the referenced article to MMR is purely speculation on your part and has no logical basis. However, it has been documented countless times that the decrease in MMR uptake is due to parents having opted out given the debunked claims over its links with autism. The reference I provided DOES actually mention MMR unlike the original. And as someone living in the UK I can tell you that there is no end of attempts by hte NHS to increase MMR uptake. You obviously don't approve of a socialized healthcare system, but to extend this to making purely speculative criticisms and claiming them as fact is uncalled for. There are valid criticisms of the NHS to be made, but this is not one of them. Is it so difficult to accept that even a system you so fundamentally disagree with has its advantages and is actually working to benefit people in this case? DWiggins 12:30, 5 November 2009 (EST)

DWiggins, if you please, can you find other sources that bolster your claim about no autism/vaccination link, such as papers from the scientific community? They would be better references than a single newspaper report. Karajou 12:39, 5 November 2009 (EST)

The link was long ago debunked as it says even on this very article! My point is not a question of whether the link is real, but that the supposed link is the reason why there has been a decrease in MMR uptake. DWiggins 12:41, 5 November 2009 (EST)

I think you better read this article [1], because there may not be an autism link within the vaccination's actual medical content, but there is a definate link between autism and thimerosal, which contains 49% mercury. Remember the "Mad Hatter" from Alice in Wonderland? Based on fact. Karajou 12:47, 5 November 2009 (EST)

I took out the "now debunked" line. I think that it reads to nearly everyone's satisfaction now. Does the MMR vaccine contain thimerosal? --Jeffrey W. Lauttamus_Discussion 12:51, 5 November 2009 (EST)

According to this, it doesn't. [2] --12:51, 5 November 2009 (EST)

Well i'm afraid Karajou that the article you provided is by no means whatsoever an authoritative source. There is consensus in the scientific community that there is no link between thimerosal and autism. To quote but another news article is simply missing the point. In large part it was the media that was to blame in stirring up this nonsense, whereas the science gave them no reason to. Take for example these two (of countless) examples which give a pretty thorough overview of the science behind the issue:

http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10997

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17168158

Both dismiss a casual link between the chemical and autism, and show that there is no evidence in the scientific literature to support such a link. DWiggins 12:56, 5 November 2009 (EST)

DWiggins, the source I provided quotes from the pages of peer-reviewed papers from medical doctors, which means there is no consensus, as you claimed. Since you missed reading them, I have posted them here:

The experts speak on mercury, vaccines and thimerosal Now all childhood vaccines have at least one mercury-free version, and I urge parents to ask for those versions if they choose to vaccinate their children. Injecting mercury into children, especially infants whose immune systems are still underdeveloped (hepatitis B shots are typically given at birth, before the immune system has developed), can be an assault to the immune system. What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Autoimmune Disorders by Stephen B Edelson MD, page 65

In 1999 studies began to surface showing that multi-dose vial vaccines, such as the MMR and hepatitis B vaccines, contained enough thimerosal to expose vaccinated children to 62.5 ug of mercury per visit to the pediatrician. This is one hundred times the dose considered safe by the Federal Environmental Protection Guidelines for infants! Worse yet, some infants will receive doses even higher; because thimerosal tends to settle in the vial. If it is not shaken up before being drawn, the first dose will contain low concentrations of mercury and the last dose will contain enormously high concentrations. If your baby is the unlucky one that gets the last dose, serious brain injury can result… Health And Nutrition Secrets by Russell L Blaylock MD, page 166

Thousands of families say they can demonstrate with videotapes and photos that their children were normal prior to being vaccinated, reacted badly to the vaccines, and became autistic shortly thereafter. The number of vaccines given before age two has risen from 3 in 1940, when autism occurred in perhaps one case per 10,000 births, to 22 different vaccines given before the age of two in the year 2000. Building Wellness with DMG by Roger V Kendall PhD, page 104

We know that certain forms of mercury, such as methylmercury and phenylmercury, are highly lipid soluble, which makes the brain especially susceptible to mercury accumulation. These forms of mercury are found in vaccines as the preservative thimerosal. Once in the brain, it tends to attach itself to protein structures, especially to the cell membrane, where it can disrupt membrane functions.23 By binding to the cell membrane, mercury changes the membrane's fluid-like quality, making it stiffer and causing the cell to age faster.24 The brain is unique in that neurons depend on special microscopic tube-like structures within the cell, appropriately called neurotubules, for their function. These neurotubules are manufactured by the cell from a substance called tubulin. We know that mercury interacts with tubulin causing it to unravel. Studies in rats have shown that doses of mercury corresponding to those seen in humans can cause a 75 percent increase in tubulin inhibition. Health And Nutrition Secrets by Russell L Blaylock MD, page 53

In the case of the susceptible newborn infant and toddler, multiple exposures to mercury-containing and multiple antigen vaccines are highly suspect in the causation of multiple organ injury (Bernard et al. 2000). The GI tract, the liver, the pancreas, the kidneys, the immune system, and the brain are major sites of mercury absorption. Researchers have clearly shown a chronic inflammatory bowel disease due to vaccine strain measles in a subset of children with autism (Thompson et al. 1995; Wakefield et al. 1995, 1999, 2000a,b; Kawashima et al. 2000; Pardi et al. 2000; Uhlmann et al. 2002). Disease Prevention And Treatment by Life Extension Foundation, page 153

Studies of autistic children have frequently shown very high levels of mercury, with no other source but vaccines found for the exposure. These levels are equal to those seen in adults during toxic industrial exposures. Several autism clinics have found dramatic improvements in the behavior and social interactions in children from whom the mercury was chelated. Results depended on how soon the mercury was removed following exposure, but permanent damage can be caused if the metal is not chelated soon enough. Still, even in cases of severe damage, because of the infant brain's tremendous reparative ability, improvements are possible. The problem of autism involves numerous body systems including the gastrointestinal, immune and nervous systems; as a result we see numerous infections and magnified effects of malnutrition. Intrepid workers in the shadows, that is outside the medial establishment, have worked many miracles with these children using a multidisciplinary scientific approach completely ignored by the orthodoxy. Some children have even experienced a return to complete physiological normalcy. Health And Nutrition Secrets by Russell L Blaylock MD, page 166

Mercury and autism mercury toxicity is a suspected cause of a steep rise—a tenfold increase between 1984 and 1994—in diagnosed cases of autism in children around the world, according to some scientists. Specifically, the culprit is thimerosal, a mercury-based compound used as a preservative in vaccines commonly administered to babies and infants. thimerosal-free vaccines are available. If you have a child who will be receiving vaccinations, ask for and make sure thimerosal-free vaccines are used. Kelp, with its essential minerals (especially calcium and magnesium), helps remove unwanted metal deposits. Prescription For Dietary Wellness by Phyllis A Balch, page 198

The pertussis vaccine (DPT) may cause 45,000 cases of autism per year in America, affecting 15 cases out of 10,000 vaccinations; also caused by the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine (MMR) that causes mental impairment, gastrointestinal damage, and increased mortality in 6-12 months from impaired immunity; 9 out of 10 cases were not breast-fed; eating dairy products caused parasites in the autistic (take Vermex; contact Dr. Nelson in Mexico for control of parasites in children with autism). There are now over 500,000 victims of autism residing in the United States, in 1994. The pertussis vaccination is not used in Sweden, which has virtually 0 cases of autism, as does Holland. This mental illness afflicts environmentally and socially non-reactive persons, ofwithdrawn personality; with inability to speak, violenttantrums, insomnia, actions such as bolting across aroad with no regard for the dire consequences. May be caused infant antibiotic use in ear infections with subsequent yeast overgrowth, by cumulative genetic Brain damage, Vitamin deficiencies, or milk and additives allergies. Immune disorders in autism include white blood cellneutrophil Myeloperoxidase enzyme deficiency for insufficient hypochlorite ions to kill yeast - genetic type from Chromosome 17 mutation or biotinidase deficiency, or acquired type from lead poisoning, Folic acid or B-l 2 deficiency, infection or leukemias… Anti-Aging Manual by Joseph B Marion, page 450

Multiple vaccinations, especially in newborns, are another major source of childhood mercury exposure because of the mercury-containing thimerosal preservative. Over twenty-two vaccinations are now recommended for children before the age of two! Health And Nutrition Secrets by Russell L Blaylock MD, page 64

In addition, there is some anecdotal evidence that autism may be tied to diet. One theory is that, in very rare cases, a child's immune system could be weakened by the measles-mumps-rubella vaccination (MMR), which is usually administered before a child turns 2. As a result of this weakening, the theory goes, the child's digestive system is unable to break down certain food proteins, leading to abnormal brain development. Proponents of this theory believe that putting the child on a diet that eliminates certain foods, such as wheat and dairy products, could in certain cases reverse the course of the disease. This theory remains speculative, however, and research needs to be done to determine its validity. In fact, a 2001 report issued by an Institute of Medicine committee examining studies about the health effects of the MMR vaccine in young children suggests that there is no proven link between the vaccine and autism. The committee recommends that there be no change in immunization practices that require children to be immunized during early childhood. The Immune Advantage by Ellen Mazo and Keith Berndtson MD, page 292

Rather than calling for an all-out immediate ban on thimerosal-containing vaccines, they suggested that parents continue to have their children vaccinated with mercury-contaminated vaccines until new stocks of uncontaminated vaccine could be made available. Here are two doctors' unions that had to be beat over the head with an overwhelming amount of data that mercury-contaminated vaccines were harming children far worse than the actual diseases against which the vaccine was intended to protect them, only to have them suggest that parents continue to harm their children just to satisfy their vaccination obsession. Are you surprised to discover that recent investigations have found that several doctor-members of vaccine boards were either receiving grants from vaccine manufacturers or held stock in the companies? They were willing to sacrifice the health of millions of children just to fill their pockets with cash. These people should be looking through bars, not serving on boards. Health And Nutrition Secrets by Russell L Blaylock MD, page 167

Vaccines may afflict 45,000 cases of autism per year in America, which afflicts 15 victims in every 10.000 births: there are now 5 00,000 of these victims in the U.S. In Sweden not using the pertussis vaccine, there is virtually no autism (and likewise in Holland). Anti-Aging Manual by Joseph B Marion, page 600

Many symptoms of autism are similar to those of mercury poisoning. Immune dysfunction, visual disturbances, and motor dysfunction are seen in both. Treating autistic children for removal of mercury and other heavy metals has shown significant improvement in their autistic symptoms. Most autistic individuals have poor liver detoxification, low antioxidant levels, and low levels of glutathione. Vaccines are effective, but the production and use of vaccines should proceed more cautiously. Currently manufactured vaccines still contain harmful substances like mercury. The link between vaccines and autism is far stronger than the medical community is willing to admit, and more research in this area should be an urgent priority. Building Wellness with DMG by Roger V Kendall PhD, page 105

Studies indicate that autism may be the result of adverse reactions to childhood vaccinations. Dr. Alan Cohen, an environmental physician from Connecticut, notes that high levels of autism and attention deficit disorder (ADD) did not occur until the mandatory use of childhood vaccinations, and suggests that there may be a connection between certain vaccines and the onset of these conditions. Complete Encyclopedia Of Natural Healing by Gary Null PhD, page 46

Almost from the inception of vaccination programs, manufacturers added a mercury preservative called thimerosal to vaccines. The practice continued until recently, and was stopped only because of the outcry from thousands of concerned parents and numerous experts in the field. The American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Academy of Family Practice did not warn parents or pediatricians that the mercury was dangerous until they were forced to. That mercury was toxic to cells had been known for over sixty years, but manufacturers apparently were more worried about lawsuits… Health And Nutrition Secrets by Russell L Blaylock MD, page 165

In fact, a 2001 report issued by an Institute of Medicine committee examining studies about the health effects of the MMR vaccine in young children suggests that there is no proven link between the vaccine and autism. The committee recommends that there be no change in immunization practices that require children to be immunized during early childhood. Another disorder affecting the brain, Alzheimer's disease, may also have an immune connection. Alzheimer's is a degenerative disease that slowly attacks nerve cells in the brain. It eventually results in the loss of all memory and mental functioning. Scientists are currently investigating the role that the immune system plays in producing an overabundance of the amino acid glutamate, a powerful nerve-cell killer. Another immune connection that researchers are investigating is the idea that Alzheimer's might be triggered, in part, by a virus. The Immune Advantage by Ellen Mazo and Keith Berndtson MD, page 292

In the past 10 years, the number of autistic children has risen between 200 and 500 per cent in every state in the U.S. This sharp increase in autism followed the introduction of MMR vaccine in 1975. Representative Dan Burton's healthy grandson was given injections for 9 diseases in one day. These injections were followed by autism. A Physicians Guide To Natural Health Products That Work By James Howenstine MD, page 267

"Probably 20% of American children, one in five, suffers from a "development disability'," according to Harris Coulter, Ph.D., Founder and Director of the Center for Empirical Medicine, in Washington, D.C. "This is a stupefying figure and we have inflicted it on ourselves. 'Development disabilities' are nearly always generated by encephalitis. And the primary cause of encephalitis in the U.S. and other industrialized countries is the childhood vaccination program. To be specific, a large proportion of the millions of U.S. children and adults suffering from autism, seizures, mental retardation, hyperactivity, dyslexia, and other branches of the hydra-headed entity called 'development disabilities' owe their disorders to one of the vaccines against childhood diseases." Alternative Medicine by Burton Goldberg, page 1101

Martin noted that the increased incidence of chronic fatigue syndrome, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, autism, and other behavior-linked illnesses "may be an inadvertent consequence of stealth virus vaccine contaminants." AIDS And Ebola by Leonard Horowitz, page 493

Just for perspective if we go back to 1971 up to 1980, we see that California consistently added 100 to 200 new cases a year; but in the year 2002, California added 3,577 new cases. Since 1980, the documented start of California's autism epidemic, the number of new cases has steadily increased. If we break down those statistics it means that from 1994 to 1995, California only added on average 2 new autistic children a day into its system. In 2001, it was a rate of 8 new autistic children added a day; in 2002, it jumped up to 10 children a day. mercury-containing vaccines are still in use today, including the most recently recommended addition to the childhood immunization schedule, 2 shots of flu vaccine for infants, bringing the total number of vaccines up to 41 in California that a child will receive before the age of two. It will take a few years to start seeing the effect of the phasing out of the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal from childhood vaccines on this autism epidemic. Many symptoms of autism are similar to those of mercury poisoning. Immune dysfunction, visual disturbances, and motor dysfunction are seen in both. Treating autistic children for removal of mercury and other heavy metals has shown significant improvement in their autistic symptoms. Most autistic individuals have poor liver detoxification, low antioxidant levels, and low levels of glutathione. Building Wellness with DMG by Roger V Kendall PhD, page 105

Since the 1990s, there has been a tenfold or 1000-percent increase in autism, an increase which has been linked by some researchers to the organic mercury preservative commonly found in baby vaccines. A greatly increased incidence of juvenile diabetes has been correlated to specific vaccination sequences and to the number of vaccines given. In some Australian Aboriginal communities, every second child died shortly after vaccination. The Natural Way to Heal by Walter Last, page 309

The best current estimates are that autism occurs in 40 to 67 children per 10,000 live births. This means that the prevalence of autism has increased 1,000 percent in the last decade. According to the latest figures just released in January 2003 by the California Department of Developmental Services, California experienced an astounding 31 percent increase in the number of new children… Building Wellness with DMG by Roger V Kendall PhD, page 104

NHS and vaccination

Douglas, the article you cite has nothing to do with vaccination. The increase in measles is due to to parents opting out of the vaccine, as was shown by DWiggins citation. I'm not here to argue whether the NHS is good or bad, but the article you cite does not support the claim you are making when dealing directly with vaccination. -- Jeffrey W. Lauttamus_Discussion 13:13, 5 November 2009 (EST)

I didn't make the claim. You may not realize this, but wiki articles are made by many contributors. However, DWiggins' citation shows nothing but throwing blame on a public miseducated by the NHS. DouglasA 13:26, 5 November 2009 (EST)

I understand how wikis are made. I think I've been here for almost a year and a half, if memory serves. I re-added the first part of DWiggins' edit. I believe this is a compromise that shows why measles are becoming more prominent in Britain, while not patting the NHS on the back. -- Jeffrey W. Lauttamus_Discussion 13:49, 5 November 2009 (EST)

DouglasA by rejecting my edit and reinstating the original you were making such a claim. And the miseducation is not caused BY the NHS. The NHS has consistently rejected the claims about a link between autism and MMR. Again, just because you disagree with the concept of the NHS does not mean everything they do is bad wrong. I do not think anyone who knows anything about the NHS could ever argue they have not consistently tried to increase MMR uptake. By all means add that original article about costs and medicines, but you cannot simply link that to this MMR issue when there is nothing in that article to support this leap between two separate issues, and when in fact the evidence contradicts it in the case of MMR. By all means take out the bit about the promotion of the vaccine by the NHS, I put it in to counter the original false claims that the decrease in uptake was entirely the fault of the NHS.

In regards to the above section, you seem to misunderstand the meaning of 'consensus'. Consensus is rarely unanimous, especially in fields so large as medicine. Consensus is the vast majority accepting something, and that is the case with the MMR vaccine and the supposed links to autism, which have been thoroughly rejected. Of course there will always be some who disagree, and unfortunately in a few cases, as with Dr. Wakefield, this disagreement is not all that it seems on the surface.

Let's be clear about this. All the reviews of the scientific literature come out with the same conclusion. There is NO evidence to support a casual link between either thiomersal and autism, nor the MMR vaccine and autism. May I also request that you do not try and mix two separate issues together. The article cited originally concerning costs and medicine provision is not related to the MMR issue or any vaccine issue. It has no place in this article, though it may do elsewhere. I think that is the fundamental issue here, the issue of the links with autism is already discussed in the article itself where it is stated that there is no evidence.DWiggins 15:03, 5 November 2009 (EST)

DWiggins, a vast majority agreeing on something - a consensus - still doesn't make their position right as opposed to wrong. A vast consensus of people in the United States viewed slavery as right at one time in our history; were they correct in believing so? No. So how can a consensus of doctors be correct in viewing that there's no vaccination link to autism, when it's been demonstrated time and time again that mercury in a human body (as in thimerosal) does bad things? Karajou 16:48, 5 November 2009 (EST)

I never said it 'makes their position right'. And in using the slavery example you are mixing up science and ethics. What is 'right' from a scientific point of view is something that has not yet been falsified, so it is perhaps better to say 'provisionally accepted' (please see my post on the Noah's Ark page I have recently made concerning the scientific method). The slavery example is a question of whether someone views slavery as morally 'right'. Of course to virtually everyone today the answer seems obvious, it is not. But as you say in the past this was not so simple, and many people saw it the opposite way. Our judgement of these people and their actions is retrospective, of course we view them as wrong, but they evidently believed they were right. Anyway, that is just an aside, since it is not relevant to the question of scientific proof.

It has been shown time and time again, through application of the scientific method that there is no casual link between MMR or thiomersal and autism. All claims otherwise have since been falsified, as such, the only logical conclusion that can currently be reached is that there is no such link. And you are also getting mixed up with your biochemistry. Yes, mercury is toxic. But thiomersal is not mercury, it is a compound containing the element. The pseudoscience behind the supposed link is that it has mercury, therefore it must be toxic, as if the mercury component jsut spontaneously separates from the rest of the compound in the human body. There is NO evidence to support a link between thiomersal and autism. I don't know how many more times it needs to be stated, by either me, or those men and women wearing the white coats who have investigated this time and time again. DWiggins 16:58, 5 November 2009 (EST)

Another aside: So there's no connection or relevence between scientific proof, the scientific method, and morality? Thanks for clearing that up. The Nazi Doctors must've had, as you say, provisionally accepted truth. Rob Smith 06:52, 22 November 2009 (EST)

Well now that I'm back I can address that point. You appear to have muddled the issues up a bit. I was not passing moral judgement on scientific discoveries, I was simply saying that a scientific 'truth' is not the same as a moral 'truth'. What the Nazi 'doctors' were doing was not even science, it was just butchery with the name science applied to it. Science can tell us what something is/how something works. It cannot tell us whether we should do something, though it can form a platform from which to make such decisions. Of course there's a connection between science and morality, but the scientific method is not a method of judging whether something is morally right or wrong, morality comes in when deciding how to use the results of scientific enquiry. DWiggins 19:28, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Vaccines and sexually transmitted disease

Let's explore the connection between vaccines and STDs. Human papillomavirus (HPV) is the most common STD. [3] HPV causes 99.7 percent of cervical cancer. [4]

So what would be the motivation of giving young teenage girls a vaccine against HPV? Aren't we telling our daughters that it's okay to abandon God's plan (of chastity before marriage) and indulge in a little experimental fornication? "Hey, we're protecting you so nothing bad will happen." --Ed Poor ^Talk 23:21, 21 November 2009 (EST)

And when they say 'teenage' girls they don't mean 19 year old young adults, they mean 13 year old CHILDREN! When such young people see what they see as authority figures (ie doctors) giving them the green light to indulge in promiscuous, dangerous behaviour, what are they going to think? TrondE 13:39, 22 November 2009 (EST)