Difference between revisions of "User:AugustO"
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{{cquote|Μαρτυρῶ ἐγὼ παντὶ τῷ ἀκούοντι τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου· ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ ἐπ’ αὐτά, ἐπιθήσει ὁ Θεὸς ἐπ’ αὐτὸν τὰς πληγὰς τὰς γεγραμμένας ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ·καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφελεῖ ὁ Θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας, τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ. Λέγει ὁ μαρτυρῶν ταῦτα Ναί, ἔρχομαι ταχύ. Ἀμήν, ἔρχου Κύριε Ἰησοῦ.|||[[Revelation_16-22_(Translated)#22:18|Rev 22:18-20]]}} | {{cquote|Μαρτυρῶ ἐγὼ παντὶ τῷ ἀκούοντι τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου· ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ ἐπ’ αὐτά, ἐπιθήσει ὁ Θεὸς ἐπ’ αὐτὸν τὰς πληγὰς τὰς γεγραμμένας ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ·καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφελεῖ ὁ Θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας, τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ. Λέγει ὁ μαρτυρῶν ταῦτα Ναί, ἔρχομαι ταχύ. Ἀμήν, ἔρχου Κύριε Ἰησοῦ.|||[[Revelation_16-22_(Translated)#22:18|Rev 22:18-20]]}} | ||
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{{cquote|Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.|||Abraham Lincoln}} | {{cquote|Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.|||Abraham Lincoln}} | ||
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{{cquote|A little learning is a dangerous thing;<br /> | {{cquote|A little learning is a dangerous thing;<br /> | ||
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:<br /> | Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:<br /> | ||
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,<br /> | There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,<br /> | ||
And drinking largely sobers us again. <br />|||Alexander Pope: ''An Essay on Criticism''}} | And drinking largely sobers us again. <br />|||Alexander Pope: ''An Essay on Criticism''}} | ||
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{{cquote|καὶ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ '''εἶπεν''' τῇ θαλάσσῃ, Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο. καὶ ἐκόπασεν ὁ ἄνεμος, καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη μεγάλη. <br />In the Mark verse above, traditional translations insert the word "said" as though Jesus caused the calming by verbally ordering the sea to be still. But '''"λέγω"''' -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above, and where it does appear in Greek versions its real meaning is to "lay", to "cause to lie down," or to "put to sleep." It only has a connotation of speaking when used in a context of verbal communication (as in putting one word with another), which is not the case here. |||Andrew Schlafly: [[Essay:Calming the Storm]]}} | {{cquote|καὶ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ '''εἶπεν''' τῇ θαλάσσῃ, Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο. καὶ ἐκόπασεν ὁ ἄνεμος, καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη μεγάλη. <br />In the Mark verse above, traditional translations insert the word "said" as though Jesus caused the calming by verbally ordering the sea to be still. But '''"λέγω"''' -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above, and where it does appear in Greek versions its real meaning is to "lay", to "cause to lie down," or to "put to sleep." It only has a connotation of speaking when used in a context of verbal communication (as in putting one word with another), which is not the case here. |||Andrew Schlafly: [[Essay:Calming the Storm]]}} | ||
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|Pluperfect ||ᾐρήκει||he had said | |Pluperfect ||ᾐρήκει||he had said | ||
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| + | {{cquote|οὗτος ... μίαν means "this one." The ESV admits this, but then translates it as something else!|||[[Talk:Epistle_to_the_Hebrews_(Translated)|Andy Schlafly (talk) 19:46, 15 November 2015 (EST)]]}} | ||
| + | It is not only that Andy Schlafly's mistake is so grotesque (he tries to attribute a '''femine''' ''accusative'' adjective to a '''masculine''' ''nominative'' pronoun) - the claim that the editors of the "English Standard Version" ''admit'' to commit the same atrocity, but then somehow cover it up, is ludicrous (Hint: they just use the standard translation of the demonstrative pronoun) | ||
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| + | Why is Andrew Schlafly's insight more reliable than the Gospel of Mark? | ||
| + | {{cquote|Mark wasn't there. Jesus did not speak aloud to a storm.|||[[Talk:Biblical scientific foreknowledge#Embarrassing Error|Andy Schlafly (talk) 09:44, 10 March 2016 (EST)]]}} | ||
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| + | {{cquote|''There were no monarchies at the time of Christ''||| [[Talk:Epistle to the Hebrews (Translated)|Andy Schlafly, 00:47, 21 October 2015 (EDT)]]}} | ||
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| + | {{cquote|''Augustus established a constitutional monarchy rather than a true republic, because the Senate's role became only advisory.''|||Andy Schlafly, [[World History Lecture Four#Birth of the Roman Empire|WHL4: Birth of the Roman Empire]]}} | ||
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| + | From [[User_talk:Aschlafly#Calming_of_the_Storm_-_eight_month_later|Calming of the Storm - eight month later]]: | ||
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| + | Andy, it took you ''eight months'' to delete the factually false statement ''But "λέγω" -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above'' from your [[Essay:Calming the Storm]]. Now I have given you [[Talk:Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge#Need_to_discuss_further_on_the_talk_page|another eight months]] to acknowledge that according to Mark, Jesus spoke to the storm aloud. But I understand that you were very preoccupied with the election: It is very unfortunate that your mother wasn't able to see Trump's ultimate triumph to which she had contributed so much - I want to express my belate condolences for your loss. | ||
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| + | 1) If you view Mark 4:39 (καὶ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ <span style="color:red">εἶπεν</span> <span style="color:green">τῇ θαλάσσῃ</span> <span style="color:blue">Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο.</span> καὶ ἐκόπασεν ὁ ἄνεμος, καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη μεγάλη.) in isolation, you may be allowed to try various, even anachronistic meanings of λέγω. But your proposals (''"lay", to "cause to lie down," or to "put to sleep"'') '''''don't work grammatically'''''. Confer the Iliad, 14th book, verse 252 where Homer uses λέγω in this sense: | ||
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| + | [...]ἐγὼ μὲν <span style="color:red">ἔλεξα</span> Διὸς <span style="color:green">νόον</span>[...] (I, indeed, <span style="color:red">laid to rest</span><span style="color:green"> the mind</span> of Zeus) | ||
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| + | Here, you see, that λέγω in the sense of laying is a transitive verb and requires an accusative (<span style="color:green">νόον</span>), while in Mark 4:39 you have a dative object (<span style="color:green">τῇ θαλάσσῃ</span>). For short, '''your preferred meaning cannot be reconciled with the actual grammar'''. | ||
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| + | 2) If you view Mark 4:39 in context of the Gospel of Mark - and even the New Testament - it becomes clear that the only feasible translation of this verse is something like " | ||
| + | <span style="color:red">[...]He said</span> <span style="color:green">to the sea</span>: <span style="color:blue">"Silence, be still"</span>): Mark uses the verb λέγω in 190 of his 678 verses, most often as the sequence | ||
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| + | <span style="color:red">[form of λέγω]</span><span style="color:green">[addressed person as dative object]</span><span style="color:blue">[direct speech]</span> | ||
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| + | You can see this e.g. in Mark 4:38-41: | ||
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| + | <sub>38</sub>καὶ αὐτὸς ἦν ἐν τῇ πρύμνῃ ἐπὶ τὸ προσκεφάλαιον καθεύδων· καὶ ἐγείρουσιν αὐτὸν καὶ <span style="color:red">λέγουσιν</span> <span style="color:green">αὐτῷ</span> <span style="color:blue">Διδάσκαλε, οὐ μέλει σοι ὅτι ἀπολλύμεθα;</span> <sub>39</sub>καὶ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ | ||
| + | <span style="color:red">εἶπεν</span> <span style="color:green">τῇ θαλάσσῃ</span> <span style="color:blue">Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο</span>. καὶ ἐκόπασεν ὁ ἄνεμος, καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη μεγάλη. <sub>40</sub>καὶ | ||
| + | <span style="color:red">εἶπεν</span><span style="color:green"> αὐτοῖς</span><span style="color:blue"> Τί δειλοί ἐστε; οὔπω ἔχετε πίστιν;</span> <sub>41</sub>καὶ ἐφοβήθησαν φόβον μέγαν, καὶ <span style="color:red">ἔλεγον</span><span style="color:green"> πρὸς ἀλλήλους </span><span style="color:blue">Τίς ἄρα οὗτός ἐστιν ὅτι καὶ ὁ ἄνεμος καὶ ἡ θάλασσα ὑπακούει αὐτῷ; </span> | ||
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| + | Here, in this short section, Mark uses the same construction four times (out of 190...). '''Do you really think that one time he just wants to express the opposite meaning to the other three times?''' | ||
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| + | I'd like to hear your thoughts. --[[User:AugustO|AugustO]] ([[User talk:AugustO|talk]]) 09:08, 20 November 2016 (EST) | ||
Revision as of 21:03, April 9, 2017
My motivation
| “ | Μαρτυρῶ ἐγὼ παντὶ τῷ ἀκούοντι τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου· ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ ἐπ’ αὐτά, ἐπιθήσει ὁ Θεὸς ἐπ’ αὐτὸν τὰς πληγὰς τὰς γεγραμμένας ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ·καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφελεῖ ὁ Θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας, τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ. Λέγει ὁ μαρτυρῶν ταῦτα Ναί, ἔρχομαι ταχύ. Ἀμήν, ἔρχου Κύριε Ἰησοῦ. | ” |
| “ | Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. | ” |
| —Abraham Lincoln | ||
| “ | A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: |
” |
| —Alexander Pope: An Essay on Criticism | ||
| “ | καὶ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ εἶπεν τῇ θαλάσσῃ, Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο. καὶ ἐκόπασεν ὁ ἄνεμος, καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη μεγάλη. In the Mark verse above, traditional translations insert the word "said" as though Jesus caused the calming by verbally ordering the sea to be still. But "λέγω" -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above, and where it does appear in Greek versions its real meaning is to "lay", to "cause to lie down," or to "put to sleep." It only has a connotation of speaking when used in a context of verbal communication (as in putting one word with another), which is not the case here. |
” |
| —Andrew Schlafly: Essay:Calming the Storm | ||
| 3rd Person Singular Indicative Active of λέγω (I say) | ||
|---|---|---|
| Present | λέγει | he says |
| Aorist | εἶπε(ν) | he said |
| Future | ἐρεῖ | he will say |
| Perfect | εἴρηκε | he has said |
| Imperfect | ἔλεγε | he used to say |
| Pluperfect | ᾐρήκει | he had said |
| “ | οὗτος ... μίαν means "this one." The ESV admits this, but then translates it as something else! | ” |
It is not only that Andy Schlafly's mistake is so grotesque (he tries to attribute a femine accusative adjective to a masculine nominative pronoun) - the claim that the editors of the "English Standard Version" admit to commit the same atrocity, but then somehow cover it up, is ludicrous (Hint: they just use the standard translation of the demonstrative pronoun)
Why is Andrew Schlafly's insight more reliable than the Gospel of Mark?
| “ | Mark wasn't there. Jesus did not speak aloud to a storm. | ” |
| “ | There were no monarchies at the time of Christ | ” |
| “ | Augustus established a constitutional monarchy rather than a true republic, because the Senate's role became only advisory. | ” |
| —Andy Schlafly, WHL4: Birth of the Roman Empire | ||
From Calming of the Storm - eight month later:
Andy, it took you eight months to delete the factually false statement But "λέγω" -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above from your Essay:Calming the Storm. Now I have given you another eight months to acknowledge that according to Mark, Jesus spoke to the storm aloud. But I understand that you were very preoccupied with the election: It is very unfortunate that your mother wasn't able to see Trump's ultimate triumph to which she had contributed so much - I want to express my belate condolences for your loss.
1) If you view Mark 4:39 (καὶ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ εἶπεν τῇ θαλάσσῃ Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο. καὶ ἐκόπασεν ὁ ἄνεμος, καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη μεγάλη.) in isolation, you may be allowed to try various, even anachronistic meanings of λέγω. But your proposals ("lay", to "cause to lie down," or to "put to sleep") don't work grammatically. Confer the Iliad, 14th book, verse 252 where Homer uses λέγω in this sense:
[...]ἐγὼ μὲν ἔλεξα Διὸς νόον[...] (I, indeed, laid to rest the mind of Zeus)
Here, you see, that λέγω in the sense of laying is a transitive verb and requires an accusative (νόον), while in Mark 4:39 you have a dative object (τῇ θαλάσσῃ). For short, your preferred meaning cannot be reconciled with the actual grammar.
2) If you view Mark 4:39 in context of the Gospel of Mark - and even the New Testament - it becomes clear that the only feasible translation of this verse is something like " [...]He said to the sea: "Silence, be still"): Mark uses the verb λέγω in 190 of his 678 verses, most often as the sequence
[form of λέγω][addressed person as dative object][direct speech]
You can see this e.g. in Mark 4:38-41:
38καὶ αὐτὸς ἦν ἐν τῇ πρύμνῃ ἐπὶ τὸ προσκεφάλαιον καθεύδων· καὶ ἐγείρουσιν αὐτὸν καὶ λέγουσιν αὐτῷ Διδάσκαλε, οὐ μέλει σοι ὅτι ἀπολλύμεθα; 39καὶ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ εἶπεν τῇ θαλάσσῃ Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο. καὶ ἐκόπασεν ὁ ἄνεμος, καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη μεγάλη. 40καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Τί δειλοί ἐστε; οὔπω ἔχετε πίστιν; 41καὶ ἐφοβήθησαν φόβον μέγαν, καὶ ἔλεγον πρὸς ἀλλήλους Τίς ἄρα οὗτός ἐστιν ὅτι καὶ ὁ ἄνεμος καὶ ἡ θάλασσα ὑπακούει αὐτῷ;
Here, in this short section, Mark uses the same construction four times (out of 190...). Do you really think that one time he just wants to express the opposite meaning to the other three times?
I'd like to hear your thoughts. --AugustO (talk) 09:08, 20 November 2016 (EST)
