Difference between revisions of "User talk:NishantXavier"

Revision as of 07:17, July 11, 2020

Welcome!

Hello, NishantXavier, and welcome to Conservapedia!

I am a contributor named DavidB4. I just want to say hello and offer any assistance you might need! Also, we have some guides which might help you get started and learn your way around if you need them.

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If you have any questions, feel free to ask me! Also we have a community portal where you can ask general questions, introduce yourself, or just comment. If you do post messages, please sign them by placing "~~~~" at the end of each one.
Thanks for joining our community, NishantXavier! We look forward to working with you!
--DavidB4 ^(TALK) 16:46, 16 April 2020 (EDT)

The 12 Apostles, the 72 disciples, 120 brethren in the upper room, 500 eyewitnesses of the Resurrection

Thanks David and everyone. Is anyone interested in collaboration to do more useful research, especially uncovering such evidence as may be helpful in apologetic and evangelistic endeavors. We could collectively work on expanding articles on (1) the 12 Apostles, (2) the 72 disciples, (3) the 120 brethren in the upper room who were filled with the Holy Spirit, (4) the 500 eyewitnesses of the Resurrection, (5) Modern great Evangelists for Christ.

The Great Commission, the Great Evangelists of the last (or any) centuries, the Great Prospects for Christianity

If anyone is ever interested on doing detailed studies in any of these areas, with a view to winning more souls for the Kingdom in future, please contact me. You can contact me using my user details on Conservapedia. Christianity has lost some ground because Christians are not as focused and as united as we could and should be. This is the greatest of all callings, the greatest of all commissions, the one task the Lord gave us. I want to train or work with 1000s of others single-mindedly focused on edification and evangelism.

Other topics: Christian History, List of Popes, Accomplishments of the Catholic Church, Hospitals, Charities etc

Two great books to read for anyone interested in pursuing these subjects on a scholarly or semi-scholarly level are:

(1) How the Catholic Church built Western Civilization https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280 by Prof. Thomas Woods and (2) How Christianity Changed the World https://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Church-Built-Western-Civilization/dp/1596983280 by Alvin Schmidt.

If the material from these books could be well ingested and surmised or reproduced online by one who has internalized it well, that is great.

My favorite pages on Conservapedia (there are a lot!). All subjects of continued research such as dates of Gospel etc

https://www.conservapedia.com/Gospel_of_Matthew https://www.conservapedia.com/Great_Commission https://www.conservapedia.com/Gospel_of_Mark https://www.conservapedia.com/Gospel_of_Luke https://www.conservapedia.com/Gospel_of_John https://www.conservapedia.com/Prophesies_Fulfilled_by_Christ https://www.conservapedia.com/Christianity https://www.conservapedia.com/Jesus_Christ https://www.conservapedia.com/Saint_Peter https://www.conservapedia.com/Saint_Paul https://www.conservapedia.com/Pope_Linus https://www.conservapedia.com/Pope_Clement

Fighting and Winning against Communist Terrorism of the Chinese Communist Party is the defining challenge of our time

"The Chinese Cold War officially started on May 29, 2019 when Chinese Communist state media called for a people's war against the United States.

In January 2020, the Chinese Communist Party government plainly demonstrated criminal intent by attempting to buy up the world's medical supplies, limiting all exports of their own, while refusing to communicate to the rest of the world the truth about the outbreak in Wuhan. A DHS report relates, "We further assess the Chinese Government attempted to hide its actions by denying there were export restrictions and obfuscating and delaying provision of its trade data" [1]. "In January, according to the report, China increased its imports of surgical facemasks by 278 percent, surgical gowns by 72 percent, and surgical gloves by 32 percent. Meanwhile, it slashed its global exports of a host of medical products: surgical gloves by 48 percent, surgical gowns by 71 percent, face masks by 48 percent, medical ventilators by 45 percent, intubator kits by 56 percent, thermometers by 53 percent, and cotton balls and swabs by 58 percent." China has long since thus squandered the right to be treated as a good-faith actor by openly warring in such a way with the free world. https://www.conservapedia.com/Chinese_Cold_War

Article on Saint Francis Xavier, one of the Greatest Missionaries of all time, who baptized nearly three million people

"On 7 April, 1541, he embarked in a sailing vessel for India, and after a tedious and dangerous voyage landed at Goa, 6 May, 1542. The first five months he spent in preaching and ministering to the sick in the hospitals. He would go through the streets ringing a little bell and inviting the children to hear the word of God. When he had gathered a number, he would take them to a certain church and would there explain the catechism to them. About October, 1542, he started for the pearl fisheries of the extreme southern coast of the peninsula, desirous of restoring Christanity which, although introduced years before, had almost disappeared on account of the lack of priests. He devoted almost three years to the work of preaching to the people of Western India, converting many, and reaching in his journeys even the Island of Ceylon. Many were the difficulties and hardships which Xavier had to encounter at this time, sometimes on account of the cruel persecutions which some of the petty kings of the country carried on against the neophytes, and again because the Portuguese soldiers, far from seconding the work of the saint, retarded it by their bad example and vicious habits." From: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06233b.htm

Temporary list of some great Christian Missionaries of all ages after the Apostles. To be continually expanded periodically

https://www.conservapedia.com/Saint_Patrick https://www.conservapedia.com/Francis_Xavier https://www.conservapedia.com/Saint_Boniface https://www.conservapedia.com/Billy_Graham https://www.conservapedia.com/Reinhard_Bonnke https://www.conservapedia.com/Daniel_Kolenda

The List of Popes is the succession list of the Popes or Bishops from Rome from Saint Peter to Pope Francis

Non-Catholic Ecclesiastical Historian Philip Schaff wrote:[1]

"St. Peter (d. 64 or 67) St. Linus (67-76) St. Anacletus (76-88) St. Clement I (88-97) St. Evaristus (97-105) St. Alexander I (105-115) St. Sixtus I (115-125) St. Telesphorus (125-136) St. Hyginus (136-140) St. Pius I (140-155) St. Anicetus (155-166) St. Soter (166-175) St. Eleutherius (175-189) St. Victor I (189-199) https://www.conservapedia.com/List_of_Popes

"It must in justice be admitted, however, that the list of Roman bishops has by far the preminence in age, completeness, integrity of succession, consistency of doctrine and policy, above every similar catalogue, not excepting those of Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, and Constantinople...."[2].

Our Lady of Fatima and Her Great Miracle of the sun should be a good reason for all non-Christians to convert

Our Lady of Fatima appeared to 3 shepherd children on May 13, 1917. She promised them a public miracle from God on Oct 13, 1917, so that the world may believe in Her Son, that He was the Son of God. All of Fatima in Portugal was astir at the prophesy, and many skeptics came as well on the foretold date, confidently expecting the prediction would be falsified, and nothing would come of it. But instead God worked a wondrous Miracle, showing supernaturally to those present the Sun moving miraculously, and (though it had been raining and many were drenched) the wet becoming dry instantly. This was a demonstration of the Power of God in the manner of Ancient Prophets, of Christ Himself, and of the Apostles. The Mother of God showed that God still worked such miracles for those who believe, and that all may believe. All Christians should investigate Our Lady of Fatima, and much can be written about this. The important takeaway is this: God in the fullness became flesh and was born of a Virgin according to the prophesy of the Scriptures. God and His Mother, Jesus and Mary, are still the most important witnesses of the Truth of the afterlife and how we should live this life. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:01, 12 May 2020 (EDT)

Parting gift of thanks

Dataclarifier and I returned just this once to thank you for your very precious and consoling defense of the Holy Gospel handed on from the Apostles. Be assured of prayers for your strength, continued dedication, protection from the enemy, for your consolation, for fullness of wisdom and divine joy to penetrate you, and for you to have from God Almighty the supreme gifts of Perfect Faith, Perfect Hope, Perfect Charity, and Perfect Perseverance in Jesus through the intercession of Mary at the hour of your death as birth into the Beatific Vision. We leave here a gift for you to cherish. [1] [2]
Pax vobis, Semper fidelis --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 01:22, 10 June 2020 (EDT) and Dataclarifier.

Dear Independent Skeptic, thank you for the message. Please be assured of my prayers for you and Data Clarifier as well. May all the Angels and Saints in Heaven, and the Holy Souls in Purgatory, pray for you. May Jesus, Mary and Joseph abundantly bless you with every blessing, in this life and the next. I do hope Data Clarifier doesn't leave, and that he comes back. I think the vitriol being directed towards him by some is totally uncalled for. I hope we can have a civil discussion here on Conservapedia and among editors a collegial and fraternal spirit going forward. God Bless You NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 17:29, 11 June 2020 (EDT)

Thank you, from both of us. Dataclarifier didn't want to "leave you hanging" without an "appreciative acknowledgement". He has permitted me to sign on and say that he was very touched and consoled by your comment above. So was I. He says to tell you, "10-4, Buddy! The Lord hands on the baton to you. Semper fi."
He said your response above was "a real balm to the spirit", and says he is deeply grateful, and welcomes your prayerful intercession. I and his doctor have both urgently recommended for health reasons no further involvement in Conservapedia. He agreed, and wishes you well. So do I. Keep the faith! --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 19:28, 11 June 2020 (EDT)

Personal note. You know, don't you, that it was no accident that you showed up when you did. Jesus is Lord. We won't be back. Peace be with you. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 20:08, 11 June 2020 (EDT)

• the vitriol being directed towards him

This is one one of the first scriptural truths any student of the bible should learn, As you sow, so shall ye reap. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 08:16, 12 June 2020 (EDT)

Wow, I'm humbled by your confidence in me, and grateful for your prayers. Shouldering the burdens you bore so courageously and for so long here will be difficult, but I will try to manage that responsibility, dear brothers in Christ and His Church. I understand duty and life calls elsewhere, but I still do hope that, Lord willing, you will check in every now and then with posts. But I will do my best to continue to represent the Cause of Christ the King, and the Truth, here. I wish we could all get along in a holy way one day. May Our Lord and Our Lady richly bless you. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 02:24, 12 June 2020 (EDT)

Follow me on Twitter

Anyone who wants can follow me on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/Xavier_DMercy we can keep in touch. You can also send me your Twitter profile here. Alternatively, you can email me at nishantxavier2019@gmail.com or let me know your email in this space. God bless, All. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 11:06, 12 June 2020 (EDT)

Request for 2 or 1 articles on Jesus/Church is the sacrament of salvation

Dear NishantXavier: an unexpected posting per your invitation. I was not raised Catholic. The Dataclarifier statements on your Debate page: Does Baptism regenerate or is it symbolic? that "Jesus is the sacrament of salvation" and "The Church is the sacrament of salvation" made me ask exactly what that means. RobSmith says there is no sacrament of salvation in the Catholic Church and that there are more than 7 sacraments, all manmade. When I asked, I got a smile in answer and the recommendation to simply "Look it up in the Catechism of the Catholic Church." I have a copy, but decided it would be faster to online search "Jesus: the sacrament of salvation"]. 3 links especially looked good.

• https://www.academia.edu/8236816/Jesus_in_humanity_is_the_primordial_sacrament_of_salvation. The author says, "The Incarnation, as a matter of fact, was a sacramental act as Jesus in his humanity is the root sacrament of God from which all other sacraments proceed."
• https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2010/04/06/the-church-the-sacrament-of-salvation/
• https://thewandererpress.com/catholic/news/our-catholic-faith/the-universal-sacrament-of-salvation/

Do you think you could condense or summarize in your own words this Catholic concept into one (or two) articles for Conservapedia? Jesus is the sacrament of salvation. The Church is the sacrament of salvation. I really think you have the gift to be able to do it simply and succinctly. But question is, do you have the time? Please think about it. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 11:24, 15 June 2020 (EDT)

Question: Does salvation come from God or Man? RobS^{Live Free or Die} 11:54, 15 June 2020 (EDT)

Second question: Who provides salvation, Jesus or his bride, the church?

Seriously, stop and think for a minute what you posting here - that salvation comes from man, and not God. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 00:44, 30 June 2020 (EDT)

For all future discussions regarding Bible interpretations, etc. isn't it better to just refer to the Conservative Bible Project? —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 12:00, 15 June 2020 (EDT)

Probably not. There's no evidence it was divinely inspired and probably did as much to kill CP's Alexa rankings as Ratwiki did. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 12:12, 15 June 2020 (EDT)

What do Alexa ratings have to do with Bible versions? The CBP, as described on the main content page, is technically supposed to be the best Bible version given its conciceness. —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 12:26, 15 June 2020 (EDT)

Read the reviews. No one believes those claims. They are all highly critical, and many consider it blasphemous. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 14:27, 15 June 2020 (EDT)

We're back to the question of pride -- the original sin; man thinking he can revise or replace the Word of God. Compare Matthew 4:6

• it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone

with Psalm 91:

• he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

A few words changed the entire meaning, and alerts believers to Satan's misuse of scripture. It is the Word of God that keeps us in all thy ways. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 14:39, 15 June 2020 (EDT)

Locus of dispute

Here I identified the locus of the dispute:

:::::Simple question: Does the Roman Catholic Church regard the Apostle Paul as an authoritative source of the Word of God? Yes or No? (no speeches or spamming). If yes, stop posting attacks on the Word of God. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 21:24, 17 February 2020 (EST)

IMO, the unanswered question above from 10 weeks ago reveals the locus of the dispute: While Dataclarifier's knowledge of Roman Church history is impressive, his own understanding of Roman Catholic doctrine sometimes conflicts with what Roman Catholic doctrine actually is. Here he cannot answer if the Epistles of Paul are the divinely inspired word of God. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 20:57, 5 May 2020 (EDT)

IMO opinion, these troll editors must address these core issues in open discussion pages and/or mainspace articles before they are allowed to spam CP with more non-biblical, extra-biblical, and anti-biblical nonsense. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 12:39, 15 June 2020 (EDT)

Dear Independent Skeptic, sure that sounds like a great idea for an article. I'll see when I can get down to it. A Sacrament, in our understanding, is a Visible Sign through which God communicates His Grace to us. Thus, for example, Baptism and Holy Communion, all instituted by God, are Sacraments. In this way, by analogy, some call the Church, the Bride of Christ, as "the Sacrament of Salvation" because She is a visible sign offering to all the world the possibility of finding salvation in Jesus Christ Our Lord, through the means He has instituted. So I hope that briefly explains it.

Regarding the other issues, yes of course the Catholic Church considers the Epistles of St. Paul the Apostle to be the inspired Word of God. Regarding the Conservapedia Bible Translation project, I think it is a good idea and parts of it have come out well. I like the Douay Rheims among Catholic translations and the King James among Protestant ones. Today, we can have a Bible version in modern English, but we should be very careful in translating it. For e.g. the Logos/Verbum/Word in Jn 1:1 has Old Testament references where the Word of God appeared to the Patriarchs as a Person. Our Lord Jesus is the Living Word of God. So translating Logos as something like "Perfection" for e.g. is probably not ideal, and the traditional translation imo should be maintained. For other texts, it's worth examining the Greek/Hebrew texts to see if better translations are possible. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 00:06, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

That's good to hear. Now tell Dataclarifier if he is asked "Does the Roman Catholic church regard the Epistles of Paul as divinely inspired?", to answer the question without adding 5,000 bytes of irrelevant nonsense and two dozen external links to scriptural and non-scriptural sources that have nothing to do with the question or subject under discussion. He can spare himself and everybody else a lot of time and trouble. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 00:42, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

I can't tell Data Clarifier anything, nor commend him anymore for all the good work he has done, since you and some others have unjustly and unnecessarily chased him off this site with your harshness and your rudeness. Why don't we all behave nicely toward each other for a change? NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 00:47, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

Not me. I have been more than accommodating, and have suffered numerous personal slights and insults since my first engagement with him. I've tried to educate him on proper editing practices, and he spits in my eye with more insults. I documented only a portion of his bad faith editing and vandalism of talk pages here [3] Being the Christian that I am, I'm swift to hear, slow to speak, slow unto anger. But I ain't no door mat either who has to sit still for his lies and smears about me. He's welcomed back anytime. My objective has always been twofold: help him become a better editor, and share the Gospel of Jesus Christ with him. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 01:23, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

Scroll down to the bottom of this singular edit. This sort of editing is worthy of a ratvandal. Never mind the reason why he did it. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 01:32, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

I have a request. Let's let bygones be bygones and move forward toward co-operative editing in the future. In Our Lord's Prayer, we say, "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us". Do we mean it? If yes, let us let go of perceived offenses against us, and wish each other well. That's all from me about this. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 01:45, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

I couldn't agree more. He's an experienced Wikipedia editor, as I understand; he should know by now that spamming and trolling isn't the way to respond when you're on the losing end of an argument. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 01:49, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

• Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;

God does not say, "wait 400 years and then your sins shall be as white as snow".

So the question is, How do we lay hold of so great a salvation? RobS^{Live Free or Die} 02:03, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and your Lord and Savior and be baptized. And if you have, then confess your sins and receive His Body and His Blood in Holy Communion. I don't know why you need to keep going back to the Old Covenant. Christians are not under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant signs prefigured that Christ will come in the future. The New Testament Sacraments manifest that Christ has already come and that the Blood and Water from His side wash us in Baptism, His Body and His Blood feed us in Holy Communion, and that those who receive the Sacraments have Eternal Life. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 02:10, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

Not to be argumentative, but that is not what this scripture says. Salvation has always been available. Jesus came in fulfillment of the scriptures. From everlasting to everlasting. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 03:30, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

Scripture says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16). Under the Old Covenant, circumcision was obligatory. Now, it no longer is, but Baptism is obligatory. Baptism is the "circumcision of Christ" (Col 2:11-12), the circumcision not made with hands, by which sins are put away and we are raised up. If Calvinist Protestants are right about "OSAS", then all Catholics are saved, because Baptism saves, and all Catholics are saved, because whoever believes and is baptized are saved, and we believe and are baptized. Before the Blood of Christ was actually shed, Baptism couldn't have had its full efficacy. Since the time of the Great Commission, it most certainly has it. Our Lord in Jn 6 says those who do not receive His Body and His Blood are not secure in their salvation. On the contrary, those who eat His Flesh and drink His Blood - in Holy Communion - certainly are. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 11:08, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

Christ existed before Jesus was born (John 1:1, 1 Corinthians 10:4, for example). RobS^{Live Free or Die} 11:20, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

As to circumcision, it is a covenant God made with Israel; we catholics are outside that covenant. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 11:25, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

That sounds Nestorian, differentiating Jesus and Christ. Jesus Christ is the eternal Word of God, the Lord and Creator of all flesh, with His Father and His Holy Spirit. The New Covenant however was established about 2000 years ago, because of Christ's Redemptive work on Calvary. By His Blood, we are justified, sanctified, and will be glorified. His Blood is communicated to us in the Sacraments, especially Baptism and Holy Communion. To believe in Him and to love Him, the Lord Our God, with all our hearts, is our foremost duties. And to love Him is to keep His Commandments, especially His Commandments to receive the Sacraments. He Himself commanded all to be baptized. He Himself commanded all to receive His Body and His Blood. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 11:27, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

Jesus is a man; Christ is a spirit. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 11:38, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

Jesus Christ is One Person. He is God made flesh. That is the Catholic Faith: "1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith ... 3. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity ... 28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. 29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ 30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man. 31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world. 32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting ... 34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ." https://www.ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

Christ existed before Jesus was born in the flesh. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 12:10, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

• all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ

they being Israel in the wilderness. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 12:16, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

• Wherefore, if I have found grace in thy sight, show me now thy way - Exodus 33:13
• Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a Rock - Exodus 33:21

RobS^{Live Free or Die} 12:20, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

Addendum: A minor point, Moses prays after finding grace, show me now thy way; Satan leaves out keep thee in all thy ways; Jesus says I am the way. These may seem minor in context to what we are discussing now, but to a serious student of the bible, they are very important. RobS^{Live Free or Die} 16:43, 16 June 2020 (EDT)

We can discuss the dispute in more detail on any of the debate pages if you wish. I'm going to work on some other things now. God Bless. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 00:36, 22 June 2020 (EDT)

Sure, if you choose to dispute that all drank from that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. But it's likely a loosing proposition, even by Roman Catholic teaching. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 18:21, 22 June 2020 (EDT)

Dear NishantXavier: I asked Dataclarifier, "What is this about RobSmith's statement that 'Christ existed before Jesus was born' and 'Jesus is a man; Christ is a spirit' and 'Christ existed before Jesus was born in the flesh', and that you said 'That sounds Nestorian, differentiating Jesus and Christ'," and I also said, "It sounds more like the New Age teachings you told me you used to believe before your conversion rather than Catholic, since Smith claims to be 'catholic, small c', and was raised Catholic and says he knows Catholic doctrine but says the Catholic Church deviated from true Christianity."
He laughed and said to look at the articles Cosmic Humanism, Liberal Catholic Church, Cosmic Christ, and Neo-Gnosticism and anything on the doctrinal teachings of Theosophy about "the Christ", and that as far as he could tell Smith's Christology was not Anabaptist, and that Nestorianism had a lot in common with Gnosticism in the 4th century. He also suggested looking at the articles Putting words in someone's mouth and Specious reasoning and Hypocrites.
I read the articles and accessed online sites about Theosophical doctrine about "the Christ", and I thought I ought to notify you that it might help explain what Smith said about Christ and Jesus and his claim to be "catholic small c", but he said that you were probably already aware of this, and not to bother, and leave Conservapedia alone and forget it and do what Fr. Mitch Pacwa said about concentrating on knowing the true teachings of the Church and the whole Bible so that when you encounter a counterfeit you'll know it immediately and have nothing to do with it and not get led astray or become embroiled in "interminable controversy". What you said about "going to work on other things", is probably best. I thought of what Jesus said in Matt 15:14. But I couldn't help it. This morning I wanted to warn you anyway. Hope it helps. Anyway, I hope this doesn't generate more trouble for you. I'll just leave it at that and try to stay away.
Best wishes. God bless you. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 12:13, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

Two questions:

1. What does that Rock was Christ in 1 Corinthians 10:4 mean?
2. What does as well as in Hebrews 4:2 mean?

RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:50, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

See what I mean? All I asked was what do four simple words mean, and what does another three simple words (two of them being redundant) mean, and I can't get a response. And when I do get a response, it's totally off topic and fills a page with 100,000 bytes. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 22:43, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

So what is there to dispute now? That Christ is a spirit? That Jesus was born of a woman? Sorry, but none of that conflicts with Roman Catholic doctrine.

The Bible is not an intellectual exercise. He catcheth the crafty in their own craftiness. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 22:52, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

For future discussions involving references to the Bible, it's probably best to use the Conservative Bible Project, as it likely the most concise version free from bias. Regardless of what RatWiki, Alexa ratings, etc. will say, it does seem very insightful. Also, does anyone else want to help finish translating the Old Testament? I know I have some reading to do, but would love to help where I can on it. —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 23:26, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

I know I previously had mentioned this, and one of the more obvious reasons against using the KJV is the fact that English has changed over the centuries (since the translation then); for a common example, the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" really means "Thou shalt not murder". Since it's possible that some wording in the KJV may mean otherwise from what readers nowadays may intuitively interpret it as, it's better to use the CBP. —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 23:37, 27 June 2020 (EDT)

I've read, used, and studied dozens of translations. KJV is still the best. It's problems are few, and very well known. English Standard Version (ESV) is also commendable.

The problem is, we don't have enough editors with an understanding of the bible, and those that do, don't want to get involved.

I have no problem with a Commentary, but a supposed "translation" is a bit of stretch.

Let me give a simple example why it's presumptuous to even think we're capable of translating the bible: the other day I needed links to righteousness and God's Law. After 13 years, we still don't have articles on two of the most important precepts regarding biblical teaching. I laugh when I see Wikipedia and others describe CP as "from a Christian perspective". RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 01:09, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

Conservapedia pages still generally delve into topics from a conservative Christian viewpoint, even if some specific topics on Christianity aren't fully covered. Besides, one of the important mottos here is utilizing the best of the public, and I don't see an exception when it comes to translating the Bible. Besides, it's not as hard as trying to build a perpetual motion machine without getting arrested for violating the laws of thermodynamics or something... —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 01:24, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

That's why a Commentary would have been so much better. We could have thrashed out salvation, righteousness, justification, baptism, etc etc. in article pages, and inserted what was necessary line by line and chapter and verse in a parallel Commentary. That may have created controversy, as all Commentaries do, but it would have avoided all the negative criticism of trying to re-write the Bible. That can't be repaired now. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 01:32, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

What do you mean it can't be repaired? Besides, haven't you been on this site when the project started such that you could've made a difference in terms of how it went? —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 01:37, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

If there are problems with the Conservative Bible Translation, then improvements can be made as needed. Nothing's that hard for the best of the public, after all! —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 01:40, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

I warned Andy not to do it, as other long time editors did as well. He did it anyway. The whole premise of thinking you can 'translate' the bible begins from a premise that you do not accept God's word 'as is'. That is exactly what the Bible teaches about sinful man - they don't listen, they refuse to hear what God says. And when they don't like what God says, they want to change it.

The best improvement to CBP is to scrap it, and ask God for forgiveness. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 01:45, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

This is the meaning of faith - accepting God's word as is. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 01:47, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

Now hold on a second. I thought the whole concept of translating the Bible is to fully understand God's word, whereas most Bible versions are inaccurate interpretations (especially the NIV). From what I understand about this specific project, the idea was that modern Bible translations were full of liberal bias. —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 11:21, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

(ec)Liberaltears: The only Christian groups who believe that are Roman Catholics, Mormons, and Jehovah Witnesses who do not use the Bible as the foundation of their faith, but instead rely on Church tradition. All 're-translating' the bible does is open the door for critics. Then who are these 'experts' entrusted with 'translating' the Bible? someone like Dataclarifier, who has no biblical understanding whatsoever and wants to push the pre-1962 Vatican II Ecumenical Council bigotry that the Roman Catholic Church is the "true church" (same as Mormons claim) and any dissenters are "cults".

Christianity is about salvation from sin, judgement, and death, not about membership in a "true church". And the way we find this salvation is through the word of God. Nobody gives a rat's pituite about debates over who Tertullian and Martin Luther was - none of that has any bearing on finding salvation. Only the Word of God can make men whole. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:12, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

Now wait a minute RobSmith. You seem to express criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and its teachings, yet the argument in your first paragraph against trying to translate the Bible is similar to the church's teachings a couple centuries ago against letting ordinary people understand the Bible themselves. —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 12:39, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

Ok, I see your point. Long story short, that's why a Commentary would have been a better path. A 're-translation' tosses out the basis of what is commonly known. It's too revolutionary. A Commentary could have given either straightforward spin on interpretations of critical passages, or weighed various scholarly views, or even come down on one side or the other after reviewing various interpretations and understandings. But to toss out all previous translations was a mistake. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:47, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

IndependentSkeptic's intervention

Oh wow! I just went back through all RobSmith's comments here and on all the talk pages about Infant Baptism and the Debate pages and the rest and combed through all of it for several hours, and not once does RobSmith actually say "Christ" became a man, "Christ" was born of a woman, "Christ" bled, suffered, died on the cross, but only "Jesus". He never says "Christ Jesus" or "Jesus Christ", but only "Jesus". And as for his two questions "what's the meaning" of 1 Cor. 10:4 and Heb. 4:2, if by now he still doesn't know and has to ask, the biblehub.com commentaries on those verses are clear about the real meaning, and it ain't what Smith insinuates and implies about the "Christ". From the comments he just made above, it's obvious he's too full of himself, and like Martin Luther thinks he is "wiser than all the doctors of Christendom"—including all the contributors to Conservapedia. 'Nuff said. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 11:55, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

IndependentSkeptic: Whatever your point is, it's moot. Dataclarifier vandalized discussion pages, forged signatures, and changed times of postings. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:03, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

IndependentSkeptic: Then answer my question: Was the Gospel preached to Israel in the Wilderness? Secondly, Where does Moses say "Go forth, baptizing"? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:08, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

IndependentSkeptic: Oh, and your lame, "Here, click on this link to biblehub" - the same technique Dataclarifier uses - which SUPPORTS my argument and neither you nor Dataclarifier ever bothered to read and/or understand, won't cut it. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:18, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

(The following was earlier posted further down the page. It was altered and moved here by RobSmith.)

All right, I will answer and "address specific facts".
(For some reason I was unable to enter this posting edit under my own ID as IndependentSkeptic because editing this page was "reserved for administrative privileges", so I got Dataclarifier's permission to use his ID on his/our home computer, since as a previous CP contributor he has long had from Andy "administrator privileges", and he can no longer see well enough to edit. Just before I did, I told him what I was going to do, and he groaned and rolled his eyes and shook his head, and told me to look up Proverbs 9:7-8 and said, "Don't say I didn't warn you!" In any case this is my final and definitive answer to RobSmith's demands for answers. He will probably call it "spamming" and "incomprehensible" and TLDR "Too Long, Didn't Read". Notice that he also referred to me as "Septic" not "Skeptic".)
You said above "Paul does not use the term 'Jesus Christ' or 'Christ Jesus'." I went to Strong's Concordance:
Paul says "Jesus Christ" in Romans 1:1,3,6,7,8; 2:16; 3:22; 5:1,11,15,17,21; 6:3,4,23; 7:25; 13:14; 15:6,16,17; 16:18,20,24,25,27; 1Corinthians 1:1,2,3,4,7,8,9,10; 2:2; 3:11; 5:4 (twice); 8:6; 9:1; 15:57; 16:22,23; 2Corinthians 1:1,2,3; 4:6; 5:18; 8:9; 11:31; 13:5,14; Galatians 1:1,3,12; 2:16 (twice); 3:14,22; 5:6,14; 6:18; Ephesians 1:1,2,3,5,17; 3:1,9,14; 5:20,23,24; Philippians 1:1,2,6,8,11,19,26; 2:11; 3:20; 4:25; Colossians 1:1,2,3; 1Thessalonians 1:1,3; 2:19; 3:11,13; 5:9,23,26; 2Thessalonians 1:1,2,8,12 (twice); 2:1,14,16; 3:6,12,18; 1Timothy 1:1 (twice),2,16; 4:6; 5:21; 6:3,14; 2Timothy 1:1,10; 2:3,8; 4:1,22; Titus 1:1,4; 2:13; 3:6; Philemon 1,3,9,25.
Paul says "Christ Jesus" in Romans 3:26; 8:1,2,39; 15:5; 16:3; 1Corinthians 1:2,30; 4:15; 15:31; 16:24; 2Corinthians 4:5; Galatians 2:4; 3:26,28; 4:14; 5:15; Ephesians 2:6,7,10,13; 3:11,21; Philippians 1:1; 2:5; 3:3,8,12,14; 4:7,19,21; Colossians 1:4,28; 2:6; 1Thessalonians 2:14; 5:18; 1Timothy 1:12,14,15; 2:5; 3:13; 6:13; 2Timothy 1:1,2,9,13; 2:1,10; 3:12,15; Philemon 6,23.
You asked the meaning of And the Rock was Christ" in 1 Corinthians 10:4 and the meaning of "as well as" in Hebrews 4:2.
"And the Rock was Christ" means that it was a type or representative sign of Christ to come, not Christ Himself. That's what it means.
"as well as" means that we as well as the Israelites in the wilderness were given the "gospel" or "joyful proclamation" of the "promise of rest",

Ok, I'm going to cut you off there. Let's review.

• when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down, - Heb. 1:3. God rested. See also It is finished - Jn 19:30.
• although the works were finished from the foundation of the world, Heb. 4:3. The Spirit of Christ existed before Jesus was born in the flesh. Salvation, and redemption by grace, through faith, has always been available, from the beginning. This can be succinctly summarized as believing (or accepting on faith) that God can make the dead live again, as he did Isaac. Righteous Abel's blood cried from the ground. Faith in the resurrection made Old Testament saints righteous.
• they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief, Heb. 4:4. unbelief = no faith. They didn't believe God's word.
• he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works - Heb. 4:8. See again, It is finished.

There is so much more that can be said here, but for now you must believe (believe = accept God's word on faith) that the gospel that was first preached to them in the wilderness is the same gospel preached in the New Testament. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 05:43, 30 June 2020 (EDT)

they in Canaan and we in Heaven, which includes the "gospel" or "joyful proclamation" of the promise of God to Moses to "raise up" a Prophet like Moses: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not give heed to my words which he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him." The "Gospel" of the promised Prophet points implicitly to the Lord Jesus Christ, whose words include the Great Commission, implied but not explicit to the people of Israel in the wilderness and their descendants, the whole of Israel who included the twelve apostles to whom Jesus said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, (1) baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (2) teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always". He is the Prophet foretold in the "gospel" preached to the people in the wilderness the Prophet Who said, "Except a man be regenerated by water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." And whoever will not give heed to these words of God which Jesus spoke in his name, God himself will require it of him. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Hebrews 10:26-31).
The same meanings are explained on the biblehub.com commentaries links for each of the verses 1 Cor. 10:4 and Heb. 4:2.
Barnes' Notes on 1 Corinthians 10:4 says: "And that Rock was Christ - This cannot be intended to be understood literally, for it was not literally true. The rock from which the water flowed was evidently an ordinary rock, a part of Mount Horeb; and all that this means is, that that rock, with the stream of water thus gushing from it, was a representation of the Messiah.
"(3) that rock was a striking representation of the fulness of the Messiah.
"And the rock was Christ: that is, it signified Christ, it was a type of him."
Bengel's Gnomen on 1 Corinthians 10:4 says: "The people did not know, what the rock was; therefore Paul long after adds, but the rock was Christ."
Matthew Poole says: "...that rock did signify or prefigure Christ".
You asked the meaning of as well as in Hebrews 4:2.
Barnes' Notes says: "According to this it would seem that the 'gospel,' as we understand it, or the whole plan of salvation, was communicated to 'them' as well as to 'us. But this is by no means the idea. The discussion has reference only to 'the promise of rest,' and the assertion of the apostle is that their 'good news' of a promise of rest is made to us as really as it was to 'them.' 'Rest' was promised to them in the land of Canaan - an emblem of the eternal rest of the people of God. That was unquestioned, and Paul took it for granted. His object now is, to show that a promise of 'rest' is as really made to us as it was to them, and that there is the same danger of failing to secure it as there was then."
Meyer's NT Commentary says: "...there, earthly rest was promised; here, spiritual and everlasting rest (Hebrews 4:6-10)."
So the rock was Christ only as a type and prefigurement of the Messiah. The "gospel" preached to the Israelites in the wilderness was not the plan of salvation but only the promise of "rest" in the promised land of Canaan as only a type and prefigurement of the rest of God in heaven from the time of his finishing of the original creation, "a rest that remains for the people of God" (Hebrews 4:9-11), which those in the Old Testament did not receive but had to wait for, "that apart from us they should not be made perfect" (Hebrews 11, esp. vv 39-40 "And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.").
You claim to know the scriptures, and you said, "Paul does not use the term 'Jesus Christ' or 'Christ Jesus'." The Bible shows he does, more than 200 times! This makes you a liar, since you claim to not be ignorant of scripture, and therefore might have been expected to know better, because if you were ignorant of scripture it would have been only a simple mistake. But you are not, and it wasn't.
Moses said that God will condemn those who will not listen to the Prophet to come like him whom God will "raise up". This is the implicit teaching of Moses in support of the words of the Prophet proclaiming the Great Commission to go forth and baptize. The New Testament testifies that Jesus is that Prophet. Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church. Jesus said to reject those who will not listen to the Church "as pagans and (enemy-traitor) tax collectors". He commanded to baptize people to be regenerated and born anew by water and the Spirit as the obligatory necessity to enter the kingdom of God and to teach all that He commanded the apostles. He gave the Holy Spirit to be with us forever, and to lead us into all truth. Paul said the Church is the pillar and ground of truth, and that the wisdom of God is known to the principalities and powers in heaven through the Church (Ephesians 3:10). The Bible commands to obey the leaders who keep watch over our souls (Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 5:5-6). The Church is the body of Christ and we are baptized into him into his death and resurrection and those who do not remain in him will be cast out and burned (John 15:6; Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:28-29). That's what the Bible teaches. But I gotta tell you that Dataclarifier provided an even better outstanding rebuttal of your doctrinal position in the irrefutable list of scriptures you stubbornly reject as "garbage" and "horse hockey" in his provocatively titled essay page Essay: Water baptism cannot save, the Church cannot save, Born again by faith alone.
You demanded answers. You got 'em buster! Rant and rave all you like. You can't change them. That substantial list of plain and clear and unambiguous scriptures you have dismissed, is a "gospel of wrath" only to those who will not obey and who stubbornly reject the teaching of the Word of God, and is a "gospel of mercy" only to those who are baptized and obey what He commanded and remain in Him.
I strongly suggest you take NishantXavier's advice to debate Bible topics on some other page and get off his talk page instead of disruptively squatting here like a cyberbully and treating it as if it's your own talk page, which is isn't.
I'm no proxy stooge for Dataclarifier (Michael Paul Heart). I speak for myself. I happen to finally agree with Dataclarifier because his excellent use of scripture as proof of what it actually says can't be denied, based on his formidable fund of knowledge of Greek and Hebrew and scholarly biblical research sources, and I will participate in the sacramental worship and life of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church which is the temple of the Holy Spirit and the pillar and bulwark of the truth and the Dwelling Place of God built of living stones, "rocks" of truth and defender and protector of the Bible against its abuse and misuse. This should do it. I won't be back.
May God bless NishantXavier and strengthen and protect him from your "unjust vitriol". Dataclarifier says that NishantXavier is a competent apologist for the Gospel of Truth in full accordance with Scripture + Tradition + Magisterium. The word of the Lord is a fire that breaks the rocks. The truth of the Bible with the undeniable words of the LORD Jesus Christ Himself, Christ Jesus the Lord, as faithfully declared here will burn you, anger you, and leave you no peace until the day you relent, repent and make reparation for all you have stated in opposition to it, and there isn't anything you can do about it. I fear for you. I will pray for your soul. May Our Lady Mary Ever-Virgin intercede for you and draw you by the grace of God to the truth. Amen. --IndependentSkeptic--Dataclarifier (talk) 13:23, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

In this trolling response everyone can read for themselves Datacarifier says, " the Rock was Christ....was ....not Christ Himself" -- a denial of scripture. Next he says "as well as means that we as well as the Israelites in the wilderness were given the "gospel"....which includes....the promise of God to Moses to "raise up" a Prophet" -- Sorry, there is no promise to "raise up a Prophet" in the Great Commission or New Testament Gospel.

Dataclarifier is inventing things out of his butt now. As Jesus said, If the salt looses it's savor, it ain't fit for the dunghill. This pretense to piety get's old after a while. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 13:42, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

One more example of bad faith editing and spam: I specifically cite Galatians chapter one where Paul said

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ

Note to readers: This is exactly what Dataclarifier is doing with his spam response -- calling you unto another gospel, which is no gospel and perverting the gospel of Christ.

And he lies in his opening line, he is not addressing SPECIFIC questions, he buries his perverted gospel under spam. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 13:53, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

• That which is flesh (Jesus) is flesh; that which is spirit (Christ) is spirit.
• God (and/or Christ) is spirit.
• The flesh profiteth nothing.
• The spirit gives life.

Comment: that Rock was Christ IS Christ Himself.

RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 15:40, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

Not to belabor the point, but the scripture itself gives us the test to validate whatever point IndependentSkeptic supposedly thinks he found (but evidently IndependnetSkeptic is just as unknowledgeble of the Bible as Dataclarifier is)

• Whosoever denies that Jesus is the Christ, this is the spirit of anti-Christ

Christians are instructed to "try the spirits" or "test the spirits". Sorry, but Dataclarifier failed when he denied the authority of scripture at least four times in discussion, and particularly the authority of Paul, as he did in his "Cosmic Christ" screed and elsewhere. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:37, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

As Jesus said (and I quoted to Dataclarifier 6 months ago):

• My word is not in you.

RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:41, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

So, no answer, again.

Since it is undeniable now, at this point, that the GOSPEL was preached to Israel in the wilderness, the next question is, "What do we mean by Gospel?" Before proceeding, it ought to be patently obvious the Gospel preached to Israel in the Wilderness was not the Great Commission.

So, let's re-examine Paul's words at Galatians chapter 1:

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

(Note to Mr. Smartypants IndependentSkeptic: Paul does not use the term "Jesus Christ" or "Christ Jesus". Are you going to ally yourself now with Dataclarifier and condemn Paul to hell as well, along with me and Martin Luther?) RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:48, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

Hmmm, no answer, again. This is the same old garbage you'd expect from a liberal communist -- cannot address specific facts in a discussion so they resort to personal attacks against me. This has been the case with Dataclarifier since day one, and now his stooge proxy, IndependentSeptic. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 20:54, 28 June 2020 (EDT)

(The 13:23, 29 June 2020 IndependentSkeptic final definitive response to challenges by RobSmith was earlier posted here. It was altered and moved out of sequence by RobSmith.)

Is it really necessary to block Dataclarifier? I know he tends to have a habit of posting large paragraphs on talk pages, though for the most part, I don't believe that he acts out of bad faith. Also, why did IndependentSkeptic say two weeks ago here that he "won't be back" yet still come back to comment on talk pages? —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 13:57, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

I did it temporarily while I read his spam posting and formulated a response. This user has a habit of spamming, trolling, and altering other users responses and signatures. He's unblocked now.

Even the link above to his Essay, a supposed "Debate", contains alterations to other users postings.

Bottomline: He's a bad faith editor and resists more experienced editors efforts to help him. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:12, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

IMO, if both these users spent some time learning rules of etiquette they wouldn't have half the problems they have. Even if it means learning the rules from their adversaries, like I did. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:17, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

Illustration: See what I mean here. Not 33 minutes after I completed my response @15:40, 29 June 2020 (EDT), User:IndependentSkeptic removed my posting. These editing practices are slimy and underhanded. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 22:10, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

A personal note

Once the Word is inside you, once you are baptized in the spirit,

• the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.

I do not need Thomas Aquinas or Martin Luther to respond to these trolls or these attacks on the gospel of Christ. I don't need to consult biblehub, wait thee days or 8 months, to cut and paste commentaries that support EXACTLY what the Holy Spirit guides me to say. And the idea that someone dedicated so much to pre-Vatican II doctrine uses Protestant commentaries whom he alleges supports his idea of Roman Catholic doctrine is beyond ridiculous.

The Word of God is not bound; and despite User:Dataclarifier and User:Independent Skeptic's attempts to do so, will fail, per the Word of God. And I give God the glory for anything I have done to bring about His Kingdom on Earth. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 22:37, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

Simple illustration: I just read at catholicism.org The Good Old Days: Catholicism in the U.S. Before Vatican II which opens with,

• "Men of every generation will regard the days of their youth wistfully. A certain number think of the past itself as superior to the present in at least some ways. They are often not wrong to do so. Today, grandfathers who were children in the 1940s and teens in the 1950s are correct if they remember life in the U.S. then as better, or at least more pleasant, than now. ..."

Now contrast that with the Word of God:

• Say not, “Why were the former days better than these?” For it is not from wisdom that you ask this.

For my money, I'm going to throw that alleged "church teaching" on the ash heap, which ignores the Word of God and misleads people, and stick with the Word of God, delve into it, immerse myself, and get baptized in it. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 23:14, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

On another personal note, I just violated a vow I made to myself. It is just too damn easy to be critical of churches, and I know people of all shades, stripes, and religions. As a general rule, I back away from criticizing churches and often bite my tongue even when I see egregious error (unless it's something like Mormonism, which denies everything). So I rely on the Word of God, especially when dealing with proud men:

I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

"Preaching". Hmm, preaching what? Preaching the same gospel that was first preached to them in the wilderness. I pray to God every waking minute of every day to use me to bring to nought the understanding of the prudent and destroy the wisdom of the wise. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 06:23, 30 June 2020 (EDT)

Dataclarifier stands by his rejection of scripture

Reading through all his spam responses, Datclarifier's own words still condemn himself:

• Essay:_Water_baptism_cannot_save,_the_Church_cannot_save,_Born_again_by_faith_alone#Opposition_Analysis

You say,

The argument seems to be:

The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative;

• Essay:_Water_baptism_cannot_save,_the_Church_cannot_save,_Born_again_by_faith_alone#conclusion:_the_analysis_of_the_argument_is_supported_sola_scriptura

Your analysis of the argument is a fairly accurate summary

And he doubles down again by posting a link to it above. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 15:08, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

Side note: Even Wikipedians don't like pattern abusers, and one of the patterns they detected was humorously called "megalomaniacal editing". One of the characteristics that showed you might have it was "You say you're going to leave—but then you don't!" Even a superficial inspection shows us that Dataclarifier suddenly leaves so he doesn't have to "clarify" inconsistencies in the hopes that by having no record of correcting himself, he can at later times carry through a precedent while being able to rely on the momentum of appearing to be a successful (undefeated?) verbal combatant. VargasMilan (talk) Monday, 17:09, 29 June 2020 (EDT)

That's sort of my objective - to cause a few short circuits and blow a few fuses. It's up to Dataclarifier, if he want's to enter into God's rest. He can do so right now, he doesn't have to wait until judgement, which he's not gonna like anyway. He can enter in right now by faith, faith being accepting what God says in God's word, not what Bogomil, or Tertullian, or Innocent III or any of a dozen other men say. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 06:46, 30 June 2020 (EDT)

If Protestantism is true, then all practicing Catholics are saved!!!

Protestantism claims "one act of faith in Christ is sufficient to make us "once saved, always saved". But every practicing Catholic has made "one" (and in fact, many) act(s) of faith in Christ and Him Crucified, in Him as Our Lord and Savior, in Him as the Son of God. Hence, if Protestantism is true, then all Catholics are saved! So please don't try to add your unnecessary works to our saving Faith! Lol. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 23:08, 2 July 2020 (EDT)

The doctrine of eternal security (once saved, always saved) is not held by all Protestants. Calvinists commonly refer to the doctrine of eternal security as "the perseverence of the saints". I know Calvinists and some Baptists hold to the eternal security doctrine, but outside of those two denonominations and/or types of Protestants, I am not sure how prevalent the doctrine is. I know Methodists don't hold to the doctine of eternal security.Wikignome72 (talk) 11:54, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

Actually, we're rushing ahead of ourselves. First the authority of scripture must be established; then discussion and doubtful disputations of its meaning can be entertained. The problem here is Tertullian has replaced the Word of God, from which 2,000 years of "scholarship" then has been added. These people simply have to be called back to the Word of God,

Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:

8 “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; 9 in vain do they worship me,

teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” - Matthew 15:7-9

A Christian believer has to decide in his own heart, using the faith of Abraham, whether or not God spoke these words and if they are true. Once they secure that conviction based upon faith, then they can toss out all the "doctrines of men" since Tertullian and focus on immersing themselves (getting baptized) in the spirit or word. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:02, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

It is pretty plain in the test - it is Jesus's baptism (spirit baptism) that saves, not John's baptism (water baptism).

These people are walking in the flesh, incapable of discerning between spirit and flesh. That wall must be broken down. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:16, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

None of that matters. It does not matter what Protestants think or believe. And it does not matter what Catholics think or believe. Only what God says matters. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 23:56, 2 July 2020 (EDT)

Anyway, to respond to the earlier posts:

IndependentSkeptic: Dear friend, thank you for the information. Yes, that statement is very problematic. As you note, it implies "Christ" is a different Person who just happened to be united to Jesus, and who then perhaps could also be so united to many other different persons, as Theosophists etc hold.

LiberalTears: Just curious friend, are you a Christian? On the Conservative Bible Project, I think it is a good idea, but the translation can be improved. I think there should be reference to patristic commentaries which explain why certain words are translated verbatim. "Logos" being translated as "Word" and not as "Thought" or "Reason" etc is one common example. In the Old Testament, there are references to the Word of God appearing to men.

Rob Smith: implying Jesus and Christ are two different entities or Persons is definitely Nestorian and heretical. You should believe and profess the Athanasian Creed. It is a perfect summary of the Apostolic and Biblical Faith. Your misunderstanding, unfortunately, is not a perfect summary. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 23:18, 2 July 2020 (EDT)

I never implied that at all. I quoted Jesus, that which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. If you have a problem with that, that is between you and the Word of God. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 23:42, 2 July 2020 (EDT)

To be carnally [fleshly] minded is death; to be spiritually minded is life and peace. If you are not spiritually minded, my friend, you are walking in the ways of death. This is the problem: your friend Nestor, Tertullian, et al lead you away from the Word of God. Study the word, not that extraneous carnal garbage. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 23:48, 2 July 2020 (EDT)

Rob Smith: Friend, we are discussing faith. According to you, what is necessary for salvation? Just to believe Our Lord Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, correct? Well, all Catholics believe that. I certainly do. Therefore, all Catholics are saved, and I certainly am - even according to Protestantism! NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 23:54, 2 July 2020 (EDT)

Hi NishantXavier, to answer your question, I suppose there ought to be a clear definition on what it means to be a Christian (and I mean a real Christian, not the in name only/Cafeteria/"the Bible doesn't actually oppose abortion" etc. nonsense). I do certainly believe in God, make strong personal efforts to sin as little as can be, repent, pray for others every night (and do also sympathize with Catholicism), though I haven't yet finished reading too many books from the Bible (Genesis gets boring in the later parts, while Exodus is quite an exciting read), nor have I ever got a very good chance to go to church and understand as much as I should (I might just be able to email you the details sometime soon). —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 23:34, 2 July 2020 (EDT)

I don't see how you can say the later parts of Genesis are boring. Read Genesis 38. In all my years, I've never heard a single sermon on Genesis 38. Yet Jesus is called "the Lion of Judah", and Tamar is listed in the bloodline of Jesus by Matthew.

Read the chapter. And remember, this all occurred before the law was given by Moses (as Joseph's quote how can I do this wicked thing and sin against God? when tempted by Potiphar's wife) and there was no formal prohibition against adultery.

Now we know what Jesus was writing in the sand in the Pericope Adulterae, probably his own bloodline.

"it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.

25When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff.

26And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I..."

It's almost comical, "Let her be burnt...on second thought.... maybe not."

So here we have compassion, mercy, grace, forgiveness. The letter (law) killeth, the spirit gives life - 2 Corinthians 3:6.

There is nothing boring, at all, about God's grace, compassion, and mercy. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 15:36, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

All right, Liberal Tears. Good to know and God Bless you. For an idea of what it means to be a Christian, I think a consensus would be: "believing in Our Lord Jesus as God and Savior, loving Him with all our hearts and striving by His Grace to live according to His Teaching". Catholic Christians in addition hold that Holy Communion is very important. In Holy Communion, we receive Him into our hearts, and become more fully cleansed from sin, and more thoroughly filled with His Spirit, and with all His Gifts of Grace. I hope that helps. Feel free, of course, to email me any time. God Bless NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 23:53, 2 July 2020 (EDT)

Your faith needs to be grounded on what God says, not what Tertullian, Bogomil, St. Augustine, Martin Luther, the Pope, John Hagee or anybody else. That's Dataclarifier's problem - he's spent a lifetime reading all that extraneous garbage and never bothered to learn the scriptures. He that has ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit teaches! RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 00:05, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible: "Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood abides in me and I in him, and I will raise him up on the last day". You need to return to the Catholic Church, my friend, for His One True Church alone, can give you the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion.

For others reading, please don't believe the Protestant error that Holy Baptism is meaningless. If not Baptized, please be Baptized immediately. You should be Baptized, as the Lord said, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. And you will receive remission of sins. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 00:09, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

I've been baptized in the spirit many years now, and thank and praise God for it. I have no idea what I ever did to receive such a blessing. As such, I've been a member of the catholic universal fellowship of Jewish and gentile believers also for a very long time. My salvation is assured. I don't need to receive Christ again every time I take a crap. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 00:21, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

Remember: that which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. Christ is an eternal spirit, he is not a piece of bread that gets tossed out in the draught. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 00:23, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

(Response to NishantXavier) If that's the general idea, then I certainly have some flaws. First, I have a hard time understanding the exact relation between God and Jesus Christ (are they the exact same spirit?). Second, I'm not super forgiveness-centered in regards to some things in my life; given some bad experiences because I actually had the audacity to stand up for what's right to a world corrupted by Hollywood values and moral relativism, I always felt that the real evil, awful people in life (that so many idiots I'm surrounded with apparently can't tell are of narcissistic, bad character) always get away with everything and ought to be punished. For me, I sometimes just don't get why I have to try forgiving them, especially after how awful some of them have been (CP administrators who have the ability to access deleted revisions can go on my talk page and possibly understand, I trust they won't leak anything). Third, because of all those ridiculous issues, I always feel that I've never made a strong enough effort to handle them better and fear that God may view me on the Day of Judgement as having been a bad person in some respects. Fourth, I used be an atheist (I was raised as such) and do have sometimes have some troubles having a very strong faith, and dunno if God actually was reaching out to me (when I was very young) and that I was living in denial; I remember that around two times when I was sick, I had some weird, scary dreams with something possibly related to diamonds and water? Thinking back to that, maybe it was the pearly gates of Heaven? I'm not exactly sure. Anyways, God Bless you too NishantXavier! —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 00:32, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

• I and the father are one. - John 10:30
• The same was in the beginning with God. - John 1:2

As to forgiveness, since God has sent his son to forgive us, we ought to forgive others. In fact, this really is necessary to find salvation. As to judgement, that's what salvation is, being saved from Judgement Day.

• being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him - Romans 5:9

Forgiveness indeed is a big part of Christian life (forgive our trespasses, as we forgive those...) or the parable in Matthew 18 beginning at verse 23 that ends So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses..

The Bible, and the Gospel, is all about forgiveness. All have sinned, yet God gave his only begotten son, reconciling the world to himself. An unforgiving spirit is a terrible thing, and will impede both your relationship with God and with other people.

Forgiveness is what sets Christianity apart from all other so-called 'faiths'. We preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Islam, by contrast, is all about vengeance and payback against the enemies of God. By killing a non-believer you're doing God a favor.

Next to Pride (thinking you are something you are not), IMO an unforgiving spirit the next most damnable sin (by that I mean in numbers of people who fail to grasp hold of God's salvation). RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 01:06, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

I do understand the importance of forgiveness, though should it necessarily be expected in the same manner out of everyone, regardless of context? After all, for some who have really been mistreated and abused in life and may not be able to find as much warmth in their hearts because of such (but are still decent people), should they simply be expected under Christian standards to be able to forgive those that ruined their lives? If that's the case, then the conclusion is that the bar to overcome in order to reach Heaven is harder for those who already had it hard in their lives. —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 01:16, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

You'll recall the next morning after Dylann Roof killed 9 blacks in Charleston (I think it was), the survivors immediately proclaimed their forgiveness of a racially motivated scum bag. Those people are strong Christians. I don't think God requires it to be instantaneous like that. I'd probably harbor a grudge, hatred and resentment for days, weeks, maybe even years - knowing I have no choice but to forgive in the end, simply cause I don't want to die as a hate-filled, unforgiving person (selfish reasons) and cause God requires it of me as part of the deal we have worked out to save me. They used the occasion to make a strong statement about who Christ is and what Christianity is, and not out of any selfish motives. And they likely know from experience, and from faith, that making a public statement of forgiveness of the racist killer who killed their loved ones was both the healthiest thing they could do for themselves, and more importantly, serve God and spread the message of the Gospel of Christ. To the Greek, foolishness....' RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 01:30, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

To understand the relationship between the Father and Son, I'll thumbnail it as best as possible (though there can be or is much more to it): The Father is the Supreme judge; the Son is our Advocate or defense attorney on Judgment Day. Satan, the accuser of the brethren, reads off the charges. Our Advocate stands in the breach (see Psalm 106:23 for example) and simply says to the Father, "he's with me". RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 01:30, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

Here is where the gospel was preached to Israel in wilderness, Exodus chapter 32:

31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

Greater love hath no man than this, that he layeth down his life for his friends. Moses stood in the breach. We have an Advocate with the father. The Spirit of Christ was in Moses for him to do this. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 01:42, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

All right, Liberal Tears. You can try saying the Lord's Prayer. It may help you forgive. Remembering God has mercifully forgiven us can be helpful when trying to forgive others. Remember on the Cross He said, after being spat on, scourged, whipped and crucified, "Father forgive them, for they know not what to do". Anyway, I will pray for you. I hope here on CP we can have a space where we take time together to pray for each other. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 03:12, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

Rob Smith, you can receive Baptism in Spirit within the Catholic Church. But you cannot receive Jesus in Holy Communion outside the Catholic Church. When Jesus comes to you in Holy Communion, He remains with you unless you commit a mortal sin again. If you do, you can be cleansed in the confessional. Then you can come close to Him again. John 6 is very clear. Read it its in the Bible. Also 1 Cor 10 and 11 on Holy Communion. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 03:12, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

No he doesn't. He's cast out in the draught. Read your bible.

Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? - Matthew 15:16,17

And no magic hocus pocus (Hoc est Corpus) will make it any different. You're walking in the flesh, my friend. They that are in the flesh cannot please God - Romans 8:8. Who you gonna believe, God or some Pope? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 03:26, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

Law vs Grace

I don't mean to confuse anybody, and this may seem a non-sequitur to the foregoing, but I'm going to add it here anyway.

A Jewish friend of mine died yesterday, and he asked that his remains be disposed of in accordance with orthodox Jewish law, which has some pretty stringent applications. I raise this point here cause we're going to advance to the 300 level of scriptural interpretation for a moment on the subject of Law vs Grace (remember, we know the Gospel was preached to Israel in the wilderness before Moses gave the Law).

From day one, God's perfect Law had some contradictions. Beginning with a prohibition of any manual labor on the Sabbath. There was also an instruction not to come at any unclean thing, like a corpse for example. In a population of 3 million in the wilderness however, people died daily. So what was to be done when a person died on the Sabbath and the undertakers were forbidden to work?

Here we have the phenomena analogous to a Living Constitution. Moses had to pass judgement, and amend the Law of God with an exception. Thank God we blood-washed born again Christians are NOT under Law, the Law is a curse and cannot redeem.

So now, ask yourself, is the Church you are attending preaching Law, telling you the Word of God is a rule book? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:35, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

The New Law contains certain things that dispose us to receive the grace of the Holy Ghost, and pertaining to the use of that grace: such things are of secondary importance, so to speak, in the New Law; and the faithful need to be instructed concerning them, both by word and writing, both as to what they should believe and as to what they should do. Consequently we must say that the New Law is in the first place a law that is inscribed on our hearts, but that secondarily it is a written law.—one thinker.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] [[User talk:{{{1}}}|(talk)]]

It's a hard saying. Who can hear it?

You must get the word inside you.

RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 17:02, 3 July 2020 (EDT)

O Separated Christians, Return to your Mother!!!

Well! I see there is quite a lot of Catholic-Protestant debate that goes on at Conservapedia, more than I anticipated or expected at first. In order to discuss the doctrinal issues that still make full Communion between Catholics and our Evangelical brethren not possible at this time at greater length in a structured manner, I'm gonna start some debate pages on those topics. We can discuss the topics there. This writer has written articles for the Catholic Traditionalist publication One Peter Five on these subjects. Shoutout to Michael! You may like this one; hope you do: it is at https://onepeterfive.com/christians-return-mother/

We will continue in the proper place. I'll be back with the link when the debate page is created: NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 11:20, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

The issue is not now, nor has it ever been, what large bodies of believers think or believe. The issue is what the Word of God says and how an individual reacts to it. Scholarship and church doctrine corrupts the Word of God, so that God's message to us never gets out.

IOWs, debating church doctrine corrupts the Word of God. The debate needs to focus on God's word, and not historically what Roman Catholics or Protestant church doctrines teach. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:14, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

Here is the page. It focuses on Biblical exegesis, Rob Smith, so you may like it too. :) Mainly Gen 3:15 and Rev 12:1, showing Mary is the Woman Who is the Promised Enemy of Satan, along with Christ Her Son, and that Christ Our Lord has Crowned His Mother Gloriously as Queen in Heaven with 12 stars. https://www.conservapedia.com/Debate:_O_Separated_Christians,_Return_to_your_Mother NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 11:20, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

Hi NishantXavier, I'm not sure that these debates over Biblical interpretations would necessarily resolve the strong disagreements and have a net constructive impact, though I do appreciate your efforts to discuss them over. It could potentially bring IndependentSkeptic back from retirement, but I think that on these types of issues, no one's going to fully convince each other on the exact right way to understand Scripture. And speaking of debates, does anyone want to refer to this one I started a while ago? I was somewhat disappointed then that no one went on there. —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 11:36, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

You got 2,000 hits. Encouraging people to engage seems to be the problem. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:40, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

NishantXavier: Warning - Debate topic comments by Sysops administrators that are copied and removed from personal talk pages or article talk pages and then posted verbatim to the proper Debate pages, has been a pretext to "earn a block for vandalism and deleting". Copying verbatim to any Debate page any debating comment which includes the electronic signature of the user posting it left intact has been a pretext to "earn a block for forging signatures" on a page that the user did not directly post to. Responding with irrefutable scriptures in context that clearly, plainly, simply on the basis of sola scriptura and the King James Only approach actually support Catholic doctrine has been a pretext to "earn a block for spamming and trolling". We urgently suggest leaving intact debate comments posted here on your talk page, and responding to them with a simple "see response at O Separated Christians, Return to your Mother." If you choose to credit the user there on the Debate page, then remove from the copied comment the brackets [[ ]] that make the name an electronic signature to avoid being charged with 'signature forgery'.
RobSmith has a talent for "encouraging people to engage" in "interminable debate" by refusing to accept as a simple answer courteous responses made with clearly stated points presenting a position he disagrees with, and in response making contentious statements that are intended to provoke an irresistable "necessary response" which he then refuses to accept, using sophistical casuistry by cherry picking scripture as proof texts he thinks the "opposition" is helpless to answer, and creating "the problem" he presents himself (above) as advising against. Be warned.
In response to Liberaltears, I have not been "brought back from retirement". Having read to Dataclarifier the comments made above, he said that a single final definitive warning to NishantXavier had to be made. "Look what happened on the Talk:Infant baptism page and the Debate:Infant baptism page, and my own User talk:Dataclarifier page and Archive 01. Warn him, that if he goes ahead RobSmith will find a way to block him because he's Catholic, in case he hasn't figured it out already, what is about to happen!"
This should do it. Having given this final warning, no need for us to return. God be with you.
—IndependentSkeptic response using Dataclarifier ID because when I attempted to save page under my own ID I found "editing this page is restricted to Users and Administrators" --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:15, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

Anybody care to translate into English?

Dataclarifier/IndependentSkeptic: I realize you can't see the forest from the trees when other Wiki editors try to assist you, but even your last posting to your own Archive page here of three red links is redundant spam of the red links in the subsection immediately above (red links lower our Google results).

Apparently you have difficulty receiving instructions. I'm sure God probably has the same opinion in your interpretation of the Bible. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 13:28, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

Dataclarifier/IndependnetSkeptic: Explain this comment:

• "Copying verbatim to any Debate page any debating comment which includes the electronic signature of the user posting it left intact has been a pretext to "earn a block for forging signatures" on a page that the user did not directly post to."

How, pray tell, does an electronic signature get on a page that the user did not directly post to? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 13:35, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

Ok, Learn by doing. I'm going to illustrate the problems with your behavior on a page I will delete after you acknowledge your error. See Essay: Satan is God. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 13:44, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

What? No response? It's been up 48 minutes already with 16 views. That's 1 viewer every 3 minutes who think Dataclarifier believes Satan is God. That will be 174,720 views in one year. I allowed your vicious lies and forgery for 7 months, and you are criticizing me now for bad faith? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:34, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

Oh, no response yet? You want to keep ignoring other users objections to your bs slanders and charges? It's been two hours and 36 views already. I got to leave for a couple of hours, but we'll see if you got the cahoonies to man up to you mistakes and your vicious slanders and smears when I get back. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 16:08, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

I think you're going somewhat too far, RobSmith. Dataclarifier may have had a bad habit with posting large amounts of information and doing certain things without realizing that they're a bad idea, though I really don't believe he acts out of sheer bad faith. Besides, this "essay" can arguably be considered a sarcastic mockery; Dataclarifier may hold strong views on Christianity differing from that of other CP editors, and these things can still be discussed in a constructive manner without misconstruing one anothers' words. Also, off topic, can you please block this liberal troll? Thanks! —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 16:18, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

Ok, enuffs enuff. But I doubt I made my point. He's like a little child. Each time he was blocked he was warned, "Don't touch the Hot Stove!" "Don't touch the Hot Stove!" "Don't touch the Hot Stove!" and he does it anyway. Then he brings it up here and plays the victim. He's no different that a troll who threatens to stab Trump supporters, than blames Trump supporters when he gets fired from his job. I have no idea if our original discussions are intact, and his Essays and Debate pages carry material quoting me that were never discussed. He's deleted postings and tampered with signatures. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 19:08, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

I understand the point you're trying to highlight, RobSmith, though how is it fair to compare Dataclarifer to violent leftists who threaten Trump supporters? Besides, I doubt that Dataclarifier's politics would be left-wing or left-leaning. —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 19:31, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

He makes accusations. He violates site policy. He's warned to stop repeatedly. He ignores warnings. Then he plays the victim and makes more accusations. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 19:53, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

You said it here: "these things can still be discussed in a constructive manner." He steadfastly refuses. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 19:55, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

Thanks for the information, Data Clarifier and Liberal Tears. DC, I hope there is a friendly debate on the talk pages of the debate pages. LT, it's true a theological debate that has lasted centuries will not be very easily resolved. But these are objects of scholarly study and sometimes it can happen that some consensus is arrived at as joint study deepens.

God Bless, All NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 20:43, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. - 1 Corinthians 1:21

Never were truer words spoken in reading Dataclarifier's contributions. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 20:52, 6 July 2020 (EDT)

What did I tell you, Rob? DataClarifier is practicing Megalomaniacal editing: You say you're going to leave—and then you don't! VargasMilan (talk) Tuesday, 10:54, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

Nishant: Question

I just read you piece, On the Precious Blood of Jesus, the Price of Our Salvation where you write,

• "A simple way to go on making super-abundant satisfaction for our sins and the ongoing sins of all the world is to offer up the Precious Blood of Jesus to the Eternal Father."

Douey-Rheims says:

• Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit

So now that Christ died once for our sins, I guess that wasn't enough. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 01:20, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

Have you read what St. Peter wrote, on how we are to go on making spiritual sacrifices in 1 Pet 2. Christ died once for our sins, and we offer spiritually His Precious Blood to the Eternal Father, so that it may be applied to others, both sinners that they may convert, and to the just, that they may become perfect. Do you think you have no need of the Precious Blood any longer? If you do, then it is because Priests and people are offering it up that you receive it. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 02:18, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

Come, let us study the Word of God together: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202&version=KJV

"5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

What are these spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ? Nothing but the sacrifice of the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ offered up spiritually. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 02:20, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

A final thing: I see Evangelical Christians as Christian brothers and sisters, that should be evident and obvious. I think we can co-operate, in the pro-life Cause, in defeating Communism, in working for the good of marriage and family, for the re-building of Christendom, for World Evangelism etc. My apologetic articles on Catholic-Protestant issues are designed to further mutual understanding by theological study of the disputed issues.

Our Lord Jesus Bless you. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 02:22, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

Good answer. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 09:37, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

There's something I'd like to add, if I may:

Indeed, as the sufferings of Christ overflow to us, so, through Christ, does our consolation overflow. When we are made to suffer, it is for your consolation and salvation. When, instead, we are comforted, this should be a consolation to you, supporting you in patiently bearing the same sufferings as we bear.

Or Christ has suffered every torment known to man through his saints, effecting a great salvation (and consolation). VargasMilan (talk) Tuesday, 11:11, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

Thanks, Rob. When you were a Catholic Christian, did you ever pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet, for e.g. One of the prayers in that Chaplet is: "Eternal Father, we offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in Atonement for our sins, and those of the Whole World". This is a way all Christians can fulfil St. Peter's command to offer spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ - i.e. the spiritual sacrifice of His Body and His Blood, which He offered for the remission of our sins. St. John the Apostle says Our Lord is "the propitiation (or atonement) for our sins, and not for ours only, but for those of the whole world". (1 Jn 2:2). Now, if He is the Propitation or Atonement for our sins and those of the whole world, the fruit of that Sacrifice must be spiritually offered for all the ongoing sins of "the whole world". That is the way that sins will decrease, sinners will convert, the just will become even more holy etc by the Precious Blood. I'm sure Evangelical Christians agree with me that the Precious Blood of Jesus is very powerful, and when we invoke it, it cleanses our sins.

And a kind request to all, especially all who're posting on my home talk page here. Please don't bully Data Clarifier or others. I understand there may be legitimate differences, but I hope we can discuss it in a pleasant manner and resolve it. No body should be shooed away from this site. That exhibits bad form imo and seems to be graceless. If we are Christians, let us show it by being kind, meek, gentle, open, welcoming, in a word, loving, to all. Our Lord said: ""By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (Jn 13:35). Do all men see this?

[Edit: Just saw Vargas Milan's post: I agree with the well-expressed, "Christ has suffered every torment known to man through his saints, effecting a great salvation (and consolation)"]

In Our Lord Jesus, Nishant Xavier. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 11:15, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

May Our Lord Jesus Bless all of us Christians and make us all One in His Holy Spirit under our Mother Mary in Truth and Charity forever. Amen. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 11:30, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

Dataclarifier was never bullied. He's a slimy little weasel troll who inserts Satanic crap into Conservapedia piled under tons of nonsense.

As to my catholic youth, all I remember is,

• As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:35, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

Okay, you use that word again, "ongoing"; so expound on the meaning of

• Christ also died once for our sins
• While we were yet sinners, Christ died, and Jesus's words,
• It is finished.

RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:47, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

Let me get more to the point: what does this passage from Hebrews mean (in fact, the whole of chapter 10 for context):

we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Verses 11 (and 1) seem to contradict your thesis that masses and offerings must be made on an ongoing basis.

Also, use the first three verses I posted as supporting evidence to this refutation. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 13:00, 7 July 2020 (EDT)

-1383 days waiting for a response

Vargas comments

Let me try to assist if I may: Ezekiel 18:4 reads "All souls are mine." The human soul is not just a responsible legal agent but an agent of spiritual health. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 04:00, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

Let me digress for a moment from the question I put to Nishant and add a comment on Ez 18 - that is a very important chapter in the Bible that marks a significant turning point. We learn that God reserves the right to amend himself. This essentially is key to understanding dispensationalism. (I'm not going to go into the reason why he amended the law he laid down in Deuteronomy right now, but this is a very significant teaching in the Bible often overlooked or misunderstood.) RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 04:45, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

Let's recap this discussion: Nishant says sacrifices have to offered for ongoing sins; Rob (and the Bible) say Christ died once for all. Any dispute here? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 04:51, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

These outward sacrifices symbolize their true meaning. Psalm 51:16-17 reads:

"Sacrifice gives you no pleasure,

were I to offer holocaust, you would not have it.

My sacrifice is this broken spirit

you will not scorn this crushed and broken heart."

Hebrews 13:16 reads:

"Keep doing good works and sharing your resources, for these are sacrifices that please God."

These outward sacrifices are the means by which the perfect sacrifice of Christ's Passion is administered to us. The Holy Apostle gave an example of this. Romans 6:3 reads:

"You have been taught that when we were baptized in Christ Jesus we were baptized in his death;..."

VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 10:13, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

Once, for all. We have a High Priest. (Let's hold off on "baptism" for now, whether it refers to John's baptism (water) of Jesus' baptism (spirit). RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:05, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

One reason the Word of God should never be tampered with is because it seems sometimes God speaks with deliberate ambiguity - and not an ambiguity that contradicts itself. For example:

• once for our sins
• one sacrifice for sins for ever
• once for all

Does God mean Christ died once for all time, once for all sins, or once for all sinners? No matter how you read it, all three are true. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:20, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

But we must continue to offer sacrifices, for example, of a contrite heart, with respect to spiritual health if we become overburdened by spiritual illness, or in the form of exercising grateful generosity to maintain health, if we can follow that verse in Hebrews the way I described, even while Christ has uniquely satisfied purchase of us from the wages of sin.

And though of course in many ways the purchase maintains the health, always somehow united in our soul in some respect, flowing by its nature from one to the healing of the other and in fact while us hoping they always remain united!

But as a social necessity as well as a form of compassion (rhetorically speaking, if I may, in the person of the formators of the church) "we" must find ways to present these sacrifices in the physical realm in such a way that we remain united in community with men and women of all stations. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 13:46, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

What we're discussing here, and in Nishant's article, is transubstantiation for ongoing sins. This is refuted by all the scriptures I cited, including he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:11, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

It's been three days already. Nishant said,

• "A simple way to go on making super-abundant satisfaction for our sins and the ongoing sins of all the world is to offer up the Precious Blood of Jesus to the Eternal Father."

God said,

• he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever

I asked about the need for "ongoing" sacrifices. Rather than answer a simple question, we've had two new off-topic subheadings created and an entirely new Debate page. Sorry, but this places me in a quandary; my instincts are to walk away from such foolishness and trollery. But the Holy Spirit sometimes leads me to allow the spirit of God to act through me and say,

• I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 09:25, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

What Nishant, and Dataclarifier as well, fail to see is, this pious sounding flowery rhetoric (a) denies who Christ is and (b) contradicts the Good News of the gospel (he hath perfected them for ever). RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 09:40, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Is there a Purgatory before Judgment day

Going to start a debate thread on this subject shortly. Just wrote on article about it. I will be answering questions directed to me on my home page along side that. For now, note that Our Lord Jesus' Words of Institution can be translated, "Offer this as My Memorial Sacrifice". See: "The Eucharist is a true sacrifice, not just a commemorative meal, as “Bible Christians” insist. The first Christians knew that it was a sacrifice and proclaimed this in their writings. They recognized the sacrificial character of Jesus’ instruction, “Do this in remembrance of me” (Touto poieite tan eman anamnasin; Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24–25), which is better translated, “Offer this as my memorial offering.”

Thus, Protestant early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes that in the early Church “the Eucharist was regarded as the distinctively Christian sacrifice. . . . Malachi’s prediction (1:10–11) that the Lord would reject Jewish sacrifices and instead would have ‘a pure offering’ made to him by the Gentiles in every place was seized upon by Christians as a prophecy of the Eucharist. The Didache indeed actually applies the term thusia, or sacrifice, to the Eucharist.

“It was natural for early Christians to think of the Eucharist as a sacrifice. The fulfillment of prophecy demanded a solemn Christian offering, and the rite itself was wrapped in the sacrificial atmosphere with which our Lord invested the Last Supper. The words of institution, ‘Do this’ (touto poieite), must have been charged with sacrificial overtones for second-century ears; Justin at any rate understood them to mean, ‘Offer this.’ . . . The bread and wine, moreover, are offered ‘for a memorial (eis anamnasin) of the passion,’ a phrase which in view of his identification of them with the Lord’s body and blood implies much more than an act of purely spiritual recollection” (J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [Full Reference], 196–7)." https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-sacrifice-of-the-mass

Done: https://www.conservapedia.com/Debate:_Is_there_a_Purgatory_before_Judgment_Day#The_First_Proof:_Direct_Proof_from_1_Corinthians_3:13-15

Nobody cares what an early Protestant historian says. We need an understanding of what God says for today's world. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:23, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

God's Word says "Offer this as My Memorial Sacrifice (Mat 26:26-28; Mk 14:22-24; Luk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 10:16-18; 1 Cor 11:23-30; Heb 13:10).

"During the Last Supper, the Lord said to his disciples, “Do this in memory of me.” In Greek, this statement reads, “Touto poieite eis tan eman anamnesin.” There are two.aspects of this phrase that deserve consideration. For one, the phrase touto poieite can be translated as do this or as offer this. In the Old Testament, God commands the Israelites “you shall offer (poieseis) upon the altar two lambs” (Ex. 29:38). This use of poiein is translated as offer this or sacrifice this over seventy times in the Old Testament. So the same word that is used for the sacrifice under the Old Covenant is used for the sacrifice of the Mass in the New.

You're going down a rabbit hole without the proper foundation. (A) the Exodus cite is not in Greek, it's Hebrew; (B) no matter how you cut it, do this in memory of me is symbolic. Christ himself is saying so in that verse. Christ died once, for all. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:27, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

The second key.aspect of this phrase is Our Lord’s use of the word anamnesin. If you were to ask a Protestant to look in a Greek Translation of his Bible, every time this word (anamnesis) appears it is within a sacrificial context (see, for example, Numbers 10:10). It also can be translated as memorial offering or memorial sacrifice. While these nuances are lost in the English translation, Jewish ears would have understood the sacrificial meaning of Christ’s words.

Another New Testament passage that testifies to the sacrificial nature of the Mass is 1 Corinthians 10:14–21. Here Paul argues that participation in the Lord’s table means refusing to participate in the sacrifices of demons. Paul contrasts two groups: The first are those who participate in one altar (the table of demons), eating the sacrifice and drinking from the cup of demons. The second are those who partake of the table of the Lord (which, according to Malachi 1:7 is synonymous with an altar of sacrifice) and drink from the cup of the Lord. Paul’s argument is based upon the parallelism between the demonic sacrifice and the Christian sacrifice. Hebrews 13:10 follows this thought, saying that we have an altar from which those who serve the tent (Jewish priests serving in the temple) have no right to eat." https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-the-mass-a-sacrifice NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 11:33, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

All that maybe true, but it's still only symbolic. Transubstantiation is anti-scriptural. Christ died once for all. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:38, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

• by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Are you going to deny the validity of this verse? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:41, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

NishantXavier, in many "Bible Christian" churches as you clumsily present the description of those to whom you pretend knowledge, what you call the Eucharist is celebrated there as "The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper" or "The Sacrament of Holy Communion"!

You are completely wrong!

VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 14:03, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

This is starting to look like a Dataclarifier mess. I ask a pretty simple question about the Bible and he moves on to another topic. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 14:13, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

Vargas, is this the impression we want to set on potential future newbies who may have differing views? Maybe it's better to avoid statements like "You are completely wrong!" —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 14:22, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

Oh really? Do you expect us to throw out JESUS' WORDS in Today's English Version of the Bible to soothe your scruples, which matches its translations by equal number of times used in both the Greek and English body of vocabulary, which reads in Mark 12:27,

"He is the God of the living, not of the dead. You are completely wrong!"

—which, once again, just like DataClarifier, seems to perfectly encapsulate a natural reaction to you and NishantXavier's inspiration in using any kind of resources to interpret the Bible other than to heap up of sacks of literary ballast in an effort to maintain an equal tallness at all times?

I'd be starting to think we're in "purgatory" already, if Rob weren't in the same room with me, whie I'm watching him bear your stupidity and moral crassness with the patience of a "saint". VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 15:09, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

I'd phrase it this way, "transubstantiation is anti-scriptural", note: not non-scriptural, which has a completely different meaning. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 15:47, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

What's with the harshness, Vargas? If you have a valid point to get through, can't you do it without being so brash? So I apparently can't make a mostly valid argument without feeling your wrath; no wonder Dataclarifier and IndependentSkeptic left. Is this seriously what you got promoted to do? Spend most of your time on talk pages and trying to suppress others' views you disagree with, some of which may just be thoughts out of curiosity? Besides, the Today's English Version (aka Good News Bible) doesn't seem to be for fit for a real understanding of Scripture; the Conservative Bible Project is likely much better for that. Also, out of topic, did you see this page I created a few hours ago (it took three hours of work)? —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 15:56, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

On that same subject, did you see Chris Martensen's latest video? Martensen has become quite the respected authority on all-things covid. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 16:21, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

Hmm, I haven't seen that video yet until you just externally linked it. I'll probably watch it sometime later today, or tomorrow. —Liberaltears^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 16:31, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

Martensen has done a daily broadcast every day since January 23, 2020 when the Wuhan story broke. He always carries the latest covid news. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 16:54, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

@Vargas Milan: Are you Catholic or Evangelical? What I said is correct. Most Protestants deny the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. This was one of the core ideas of Protestantism, epitomized by Zwingli and other reformers. You can ask Rob, a Protestant, whether or not he believes in Christ's Real Presence if you don't believe me.

@Liberal Tears: we are Encyclopedia editors. We should be able to discuss these issues in a scholarly manner politely and pleasantly as you said.

@Rob: Our Lord said, "This is My Body" and "This is My Blood". Those with strong Faith know He said what He meant and meant what He said. In John 6, Our Lord says His flesh is food indeed and His Blood is drink indeed. He gave us this in Holy Communion before His Sacrificial Death. Christ died only once, but the sacrifice of His death is presented to God many times in the Mass. The Bible says, "It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these" (Heb 9:23), what are these better sacrifices with which the heavenly things are purified? The sacrifices of the Mass offered to God in every Catholic Church. We do not sacrifice Lambs anymore or kill animals; only the one and True Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, is mystically made present in the elements so that His Body and His Blood can be offered to the Eternal Father. This offering draws all its efficacy and power from the one offering of the Cross that sanctifies us. I have given clear proofs from the Hebrew and the Greek. Those interested in truly studying - not superficially passing over - the issue can read them. Our Lord has given to His Church the clear and express command to offer His Body and His Blood as His Memorial Sacrifice. Read 1 Cor 10 and 11. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 22:27, 8 July 2020 (EDT)

He also said the flesh profiteth nothing. You lack spiritual discernment. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 06:14, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Christians are commanded to exercise discernment, which neither your doctrine of transubstantiation, doctrine of purgatory, or rejection of the scripture in favor of herd mentality and Roman Catholic doctrine does. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 06:17, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Your flesh (man's flesh) profits nothing. Christ's flesh (God's flesh) profited everything, because the Sacrifice of that flesh and blood is what saved. If God did not become Man, man would not have been redeemed. Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God - it is the Son of God Himself Who says it - you will not have life in you. The salvation of those who knowingly reject the Sacraments is insecure at best. If you want to obey the Son of God, you should listen to His Word, and do as He commanded: Jn 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." Have you ever read 1 Cor 10 and 11 in your life? Do that, and you will see Holy Communion is not some "symbol" (as virtually no one one believed for the first 1500 years), but is the True Body and Precious Blood of Jesus Christ the Lord. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 11:27, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Good answer, but it still doesn't answer the fact that Christ died once for all. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:36, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Nor have you addressed he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified which refutes your doctrine of purgatory. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:41, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Read the Gospel. The Lord - not Nishant Xavier - said to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. His blood washes away sins when we receive Him in holy Communion. It washes away venial sins. That's why the Lord says those who drink His Blood will have eternal life, because you can go to heaven without Purgatory if you die receiving Viaticum (Holy Communion just before death; surprised the page doesn't exist; will create it later) well.

Vargas Milan has shown you clearly from the Bible we are to go on offering sacrifices. It's in the Psalms and even Heb 9:23. No one is denying Christ died only once. We are offering the same Sacrifice He offered in union with Him. He offered it in a bleeding manner, we offer it in a non-bleeding manner. If you watch this video, https://youtu.be/7hnRBja4pCk?list=RDCMUC11Nn9nGy1pscf6qzrk0h_w you may understand NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 09:58, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

So then it is only symbolic. Deny this and you deny that Christ died once for sins as well. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:04, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Editorial comment

This is the same technique Dataclarifier employs. The discussion begins on "ongoing" sacrifices"; the question is never addressed but purgatory gets inserted; then questions on purgatory are not answered and the discussion morphs into the validity of the Word of God, at which point I get accused of being a Protestant and anti-Catholic bigotry, of which I am neither.

Suggestion: try focusing on the original topic under debate. I am not debating Catholicism versus Protestantism. I am sharing, and defending the Word of God. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:52, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

One further comment: When I share the Word of God, I am doing precisely what you say the Great Commission requires. If citing the scripture is anti-Roman Catholic doctrine, so be it. Roman Catholic doctrine in the 21st century, as presented by Nishant, Dataclarifier, and IndependentSkeptic, is not founded upon scripture. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:56, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

The Great Commission is a Commission to baptize non-Christians, not to attack already Baptized Catholics Christians. So that is a misunderstanding. I'm going to be a little busy now working on Conservapedia Election Predictions. If you want to discuss a specific issue, create a debate page for each question, and then come call me on my home page, and I'll get to it in time. I've done about 15 states and I want to finish the 50 States soon. Btw, I just got promoted and now have edit rights to work on contributing to articles during the "night time", which is still afternoon time to me. God Bless. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 03:36, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

I don't think you understand the gospel. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 08:16, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Question: Do you baptize them at gunpoint or give them the word first? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 08:17, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

That's because you yourself misunderstand it, owing to your anti-Catholic prejudice. To evangelise non-Christians and invite them to come freely receive Baptism and the remission of sins and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit in that Sacred Sacrament is at the Heart of the Gospel and God's call to His True Church. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 08:20, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

How do you evangelize if you don't know the word? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 08:40, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Also, we revere the Word as much or even more than you do. It is the inspired, inerrant Word of the living God. We also have all of it. All 73 books, not just 66 like you have. Read the early Councils that settled the Canon - Council of Carthage, Council of Hippo, Council of Rome under Pope St. Damasus - all of these have 73 inspired Books. All those Books, and those Books only, consitute the Sacred And Inspired Word of the Living God NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 08:29, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Bla bla bla. If you knew the word, you could answer what he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified means. But you can't. All you can do is answer with blocs of spam and church history. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 08:44, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Let me repeat myself: I am not here to debate Catholic doctrine versus Protestant doctrine (whatever that is); I'm here to share the word of God with both believers and the unsaved. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 08:46, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Let me continue in that vein: What does, I planted, Apollos watered in relation to the Great Commission mean? I'll answer for you: A sower went out to sow seed....the seed is the word of God. The Great Commission is about sowing seed, i.e. the Word of God. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 08:50, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Putting baptism before the word is putting the cart before the horse. Hear and learn the word first, allow the seed to take root, then we'll discuss baptism. The gospel is not about baptism. It is about salvation. You have the two entirely confused and mixed up. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 09:00, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Nobody is putting Baptism before belief here. You are just confused? Have you ever led a non-Christian like a Muslim to belief in Christ Crucified and to Holy Baptism? If you had, like I have, you would perhaps know how important it is to preach Holy Baptism, as the visible, external sign, that your sins have been internally forgiven. Holy Baptism is very important and nobody nowhere is ever going to stop me from preaching the Gospel to every creature. When a non-Christian asks to be baptized, he has to confess faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, in order to receive Holy Baptism. We first evangelize then baptize. You are quite confused here or confusing others. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 09:54, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

What does I planted, Apollos watered mean? Does that mean Paul sowed the seed and Apollos baptized? Paul evidently didn't execute the Great Commission if all he did was evangelize and leave it to somebody else to baptize.

And it cannot be said definitively that Apollos baptized.

Go ahead, ignore this scripture, as well. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:01, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? We know St. Paul baptized some people from Scripture. St. Philip baptized the Ethiopian Eunuch. There is nothing to argue here - we agree both Baptism and Evangelism is important. But evangelizing non-Christians, not disturbing Catholic Christians, who were Christians for 1500 years before your Protestant sect even existed. Christianity did not begin in the 1500s A.D. It has existed since Christ. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 10:11, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

The Word is the seed. The Great Commission is to sow the seed. You cannot evangelize if you do not know the word. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:16, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Catholicism and Protestantism have nothing to do with the point I'm making, or what God says in his word. I am here to discuss the Word, not Protestantism or Catholicism or 1500 years of church history. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:18, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

I do not care what Protestantism teaches. I do not care what Catholicism teaches. I care what God teaches in his word. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:20, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

• "Christianity did not begin in the 1500s A.D. It has existed since Christ. "

Bingo. Christ existed since the foundation of the world. Can we agree on that? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:23, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Yes, of course. Jesus Christ is the Creator of the world. Please summarize what you believe the Gospel to be? Is it to believe (1) Jesus Christ is God? (2) To believe He is True God Who became True Man (3) To believe He died on the Cross for our sins (4) To believe He rose again? etc. We have 12 Articles of Faith in the Apostles' Creed we've always professed for 2000 years. We hold that the Full Gospel is taught only by and in the Catholic Church. Evangelicals may have 50 to 60% of it, Orthodox Christians have 80 to 90% of it, but only Catholic Christians have the full 100%. That's why Our Lord Jesus said "Go and tell it to the Church" (Mat 18:17), promising to bind and loose in Heaven, where He came from, whatever His Church binds on Earth. Please summarize 3 or 4 essential beliefs of the Gospel. I already proved to you, if Protestantism is true, all Catholics are saved. If Protestantism is true, I'm going straight to Heaven when I die! Whoo! But I know it isn't. And I know there'll be a Purgatory, so I fear my Protestant friends will have to spend a long time in it. If you read my article, I showed you a way to even avoid Purgatory for Catholics. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 10:28, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

• In the beginning was the word....and the word was made flesh...
• Before Abraham, I AM.
• That Rock was Christ...
• The gospel was preached to us as well as unto them (Israel in the wilderness)
• Melchesidek, King of Salem
• Wherefore, if I have found grace in thy sight, show me now thy way
• I am the way
• There is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a Rock

I could go on, but this is who Christ is. I defer answering "what you believe the Gospel to be" until after we identify who Christ is. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:38, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Nicene Creed. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 10:41, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Jesus Christ is True God, Eternal Son of the Eternal Father, the Word become flesh: "I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven [here bow], and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man [end of bow]. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 10:42, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Great. Only problem is, that text is not in the Bible. I'm here to discuss scripture. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:45, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

For the love of God, Please, focus on scripture, not extra-biblical texts or the Catholicism vs. Protestantism debate. It only confuses things.RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 10:48, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Digression: Nicene creed

See, this is what happens when you substitute the inerrant Word of God with the words of men. You get stupid contradictions like this:

• " born of the Father before all ages"

No, Jesus was not born in the flesh before all ages. He was born of Mary much later.

The Nicene creed was merely a conference of men trying to agree on something or other and reconcile translations from different cultures, backgrounds and idioms. Most importantly, it is not the inerrant Word of God. As such, putting you faith in the words of men, such as the Nicene creed, is an error. Put your faith in God and in God's word. It will translate itself into whatever language or culture it's preached.

Disagreements between large bodies of believers, say Roman, Orthodox, Protestant and Judaism, are in nearly all cases manifestations of the sin of Pride. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:03, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Furthermore, the so-called Apostle's Creed and Nicene Creed are no different than the concept of a Living Constitution. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q}

The Word of God itself says it is living and active; the Nicene Creed says the "Lord Jesus Christ [was] born of the Father before all ages". That simply is not true, per the Word of God. Jesus was not born until the Roman census of Caesar Augustus. These pious sounding phrases and words of men, that people accept as gospel truth and substitute for, or ignore completely, the scripture, have the effect of deceiving people. It is that living and active quality of the scripture I call upon to strike down the deceptions and ignorance of men. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:39, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

You demanded scripture. Here is scripture! Eat it!

• The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
• The Church is the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12
• Through the Church the manifold wisdom of God is known. Ephesians 3:10
• God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets (those who speak in the name and by the authority of the Lord), third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators. 1 Corinthians 12:28
• Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17
• Jesus built his Church and not even the powers of hell shall prevail against it. Matthew 16:18
• Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. (The Church) 1 Peter 2:13
• Be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that in due time he may exalt you. 1 Peter 5:5-6
• For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
• Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 John 9-11
• As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned. Titus 3:10-11
• Yet in like manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones (angels and saints). Jude 8
• Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 John 2:18-29
• These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage. Jude 16
• Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48

RobSmith's Refusal to hear these words of the Bible the word of God

• He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. John 8:47
• He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9

RobSmith clearly manifests the sin of Pride in refusing to hear the word of God which commands obedience to the established authority and doctrine of the elders of the catholic Church, the body of Christ that Jesus established and remains with and is led into all truth forever by the Spirit of truth whom Jesus has sent, which cannot be overcome by Satan and the powers of hell, the Church that the Scripture commands all believers to obey.

Ah ha! Good!

• Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God;

Let's talk about the Doctrine of Christ. Tell me, from scripture, What is the Doctrine of Christ?

Again, use ONLY scripture. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:32, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

I'll even give you three clues to get started:

• That Rock was Christ...
• Wherefore, if I have found grace in thy sight, show me now thy way
• I am the way

Here's a fourth:

• Moses stood in the breach

Then reconcile for me, please

• No man hath seen God at any time

with

• The Lord spake unto Moses face to face

I hope you really are IndependentSkeptic cause me and Dataclarifier have been over this ground before, and he couldn't show me where the so-called successors of Peter have not gone beyond.

• Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:45, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Any response that does not use scripture and/or you invoke any non-scriptural reference will be interpreted as a rejection of the validity of the Word of God. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:49, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Purgatory goes beyond the Doctrine of Christ. Transubstantiation goes beyond the Doctrine of Christ. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 12:50, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Fine! Only Scripture

Obey the Church. Whoever does not listen to the Church is to be rejected as false and a traitor. Matthew 18:15-17

• Jesus built his Church and not even the powers of hell shall prevail against it. Matthew 16:18
• Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48
• Whoever does not listen to the Church is to be rejected as false and a traitor. Matthew 18:15-17

• You're being redundant.

• Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48

• You're being redundant.

• The Church is the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12
• The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
• Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Hebrews 13:17
• Through the Church the manifold wisdom of God is known. Ephesians 3:10
• Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. (The Church) 1 Peter 2:13
• Be subject to the elders. "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that in due time he may exalt you. 1 Peter 5:5-6
• For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Romans 13:1-2
• Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God

The Doctrine of Christ is the Doctrine of the Catholic Church. The Doctrine of the Catholic Church is the Doctrine of Christ. The authoritative doctrines of the Catholic Church are not non-scriptural: the authoritative doctrines of the Catholic Church are not anti-scriptural. The Teaching authority of the Church to publish doctrinal teachings and to clarify and authoritatively interpret scripture and establish the Nicene Creed and Athanasian Creed is scripturally established by Scripture Itself. This is not circular reasoning. The authority of the Church Jesus established firmly on a Rock is based not on the Bible but on what eyewitnesses to Jesus taught, based solely on his and their authority to teach, authority from God, a doctrine plainly recorded in the Bible, as shown above (twice).

Your own comments and interpretations oppose the Doctrine of Christ regarding the Church—you oppose His Own Words about the Church.
Your own comments and sophist insinuations and interpretations of the Bible divorced from the whole context of the Bible, in order to make it seem to say what it does not say as a whole, are examples of Cafeteria Christianity based entirely on a specious reasoning hostile to the authority of the Church and even by your own standards of "validity" are "man-made". By your own standard of demanding "scripture only" your own words are outside of scripture and have been added to scripture, and by your own argument your own words therefore have no authority, and by your own standards they are "man's opinions" and therefore by your own standard of going only by the Bible your comments have absolutely no validity! Hypocrite!
By rights you should make no comment at all. Just quote scripture.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal [You must be spiritually born.] RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 18:53, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

You don't. You add to Scripture. You suggestively imply that the Bible opposes the Church, the Church supported by the Bible in establishing its divine authority established by God, and you oppose what God has established. You condemn yourself on that basis alone, a standard you yourself have set up and have constantly violated. You yourself go beyond the Doctrine of Christ because you go beyond and outside of the Doctrine of the Church by your anti-catholic opposition to the Church.

• The worst are anti-catholic Protestants. You have no charity or truth in you.

(It Burns, doesn't it!)
Catholics believe the Bible, they believe Jesus' words, they obey the Church, and all that the Church has revealed and taught from God the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:16; Jn 16:12-15), because God has taught the Doctrine of Christ that we are to listen to and obey the Church, in all things having to do with faith and morals. I believe the scriptures, that's why I came to believe in the Catholic Church and why I've been accepted into the Catholic Church as a member of the Body of Christ by the holy baptism of water and the Spirit without which no one can enter the Kingdom of God. --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 17:16, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

• "Doctrine of Christ is the Doctrine of the Catholic Church"

Where in Strong's Concordance does the term, "Catholic Church" appear appear? It doesn't. You have not even broached the subject or question. What is the Doctrine of Christ?

You should go to Wikipedia. They like that kind of reasoning: "A leftist is a liberal. A liberal is a leftist." "The Doctrine of Christ is the Doctrine of the Catholic Church. The Doctrine of the Catholic Church is the Doctrine of Christ." You say that, not only with no Biblical foundation, you're only point is to condemn me and send me to hell while refusing to explain the gospel.

As a scriptural expert you think it would be easy to answer, What is the Doctrine of Christ?, which according to you, is the basis of the Great Commission. But than you can't answer that question. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 18:11, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

You should leave the argument to Nishant, so far he's done a little better than you. I think not only your alleged doctrine, but your style of presentation, is a bad influence on him. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 18:14, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

IndependentSkeptic says:

• "Catholics believe the Bible"

then answer yes or no, Do you believe:

• he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 19:16, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

-1380 days waiting for a response

Independent Skeptic has shown clear and many proofs that Sacred Scripture, Apostolic Tradition and the Church's Magisterium all go together. Sola Scriptura is a Protestant myth, as much as OSAS and other popular Protestant myths. The Biblical model is Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium. Read Acts 15 and we see the holy Apostles gather as the first Bishops with the Presbyters or Elders of the Church (Priests) to pass a Judgment on Circumcision. They exercise the power of binding and loosing, with St. Peter at their Head, and St. James, Bishop of Jerusalem co-presiding. This Council took place in Jerusalem historically around 48 A.D. It shows the early Church did not go by private interpretation, but by Church Judgment. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:24, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Also, you have misunderstood what the Church Council's Creed means. Our Lord Jesus is the Son of God in eternity because "With thee is the principality in the day of thy strength: in the brightness of the saints: from the womb before the day star I begot thee." (Psa 110:3, DRB). Before the world began, He was eternally begotten in the glory of the Father. In the fullness of time, when He the Eternal Word became Incarnate Flesh, He was born in time of the Virgin Mother. It is well said, He Who was born in Eternity of a Father without a Mother, is subsequently born in time of a Mother without a Father in the Sacred Liturgy. All that is part of Apostolic Tradition, handed down to the Church, and interpreted by the Magisterium. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:26, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Lastly both Creeds, Apostolic and Nicene, profess that the true Church is Catholic. The Apostolic Church is the Catholic Church only. As America has a series of presidents from Washington to President Trump, so the Catholic Church has had an unbroken series of Popes from St. Peter and St. Linus to Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis. Pope St. John Paul II was instrumental in the defeat of Communism in the USSR, as President Raegan, President Trump and Gorbachev have conceded. The Catholic Church is an immense force for good in this world, with Her Charities, Her Orphanages, Her Hospitals and so much more. And above all, She preaches the Gospel, and fulfills the Great Commission, having reached 1.35 Billion Catholic Christians worldwide, 1 in every 6 persons on Earth. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:29, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Bzzzzt. Wrong. You can't discuss scripture or defend you faith without inserting non-scriptural concepts such as Protestantism, magisterium, etc etc. Neither one of you have any mastery of the scriptures. Neither one of you should pretend to have any scriptural knowledge or understanding with non-believers.

Secondly, I do not care, and am not interested in what any creed says. I am only interested in the word of God. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 18:35, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

I asked a simple question, What is the Doctrine of Christ? Neither one of you have even attempted to answer that question, despite uploading a couple thousands bytes. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 18:38, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Nope, it's correct. And you went to the Creed, so we answered it. You haven't even answered the question I asked you, about 3 or 4 essential beliefs of the Gospel. I don't think you want to go there.

Because, if believing Jesus is the Son of God, and Our Lord and Savior, is sufficient to be OSAS, then all Catholics are already saved! Lol, and so you can stop trying to add your works to our Faith!!!NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:39, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Nope. You brought that creed garbage in, and I disposed of it. If I let you slide off topic, i.e. bring non-scriptural, extraneous readings like Dataclarifier has a habit, we'll be spinning our wheels for ever.

You decide. Make up you mind now. I will discuss scripture - nothing else. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 19:00, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

I already answered your erroneous claims from Scripture, and asked you a sola Scriptura question you have not yet answered. For the nth time, what are 3 or 4 essential articles of Faith of the Gospel? If you're not answering this, there's no point. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 19:03, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

You answered nothing. Answer again: What is the Doctrine of Christ? RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 19:17, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

Need some help? How about:

• God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself

RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 19:29, 10 July 2020 (EDT)

I've explained the Gospel. You have not. Name the 3 or 4 essential beliefs I asked you for many times. I've already told you what is the Catholic Gospel. (1) That God is a Holy Trinity, (2) That Jesus Christ is God, (3) That Jesus Christ Our Lord, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, became Man. (4) That if we worship and serve Him as true God made true Man, we can be saved. (5) That Jesus Christ was Conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mother Mary. (6) That Jesus Christ died on the Cross for our sins. (7) That God raised Him from the dead so that we, too, may live. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 01:24, 11 July 2020 (EDT)

No you haven't. Go back to the beginning of this discussion. I asked about "ongoing" sacrifices. You've danced around the issue for days. You've done a 'Dataclarifier' to avoid discussing the Bible. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 01:46, 11 July 2020 (EDT)

My dream for Conservapedia and World Evangelism by 2030

As a former BNY Mellon employee, I think it is very important to set attainable targets and then work year-on-year to achieve them. Here's my dream for Conservapedia. (1) that it will cross 1 Billion page views by year end. (2) That we will have 1 Million Users and (3) 10 Billion page views by 2030. Creating content should be done with that in mind, to attract many new users and viewers to our site. Also, very polemical disputes between Administrators and Senior users will be off-putting to junior users. Let us work on furthering the Conservative and Christian Cause that we all agree with. With regard to our slight differences, let's discuss them irenically in a friendly manner, with the aim of arriving at a joint consensus to promote. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 00:03, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Rejection of the Word of God is not a slight difference.. RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 06:23, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

Anti-Catholic Protestants are the worst. You have neither Truth nor Charity. Catholics don't reject the Word of God; but Anti-Catholics sure do. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 11:23, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God. And the word was God. The Word has never been replaced by anything.RobS^{Trump 2Q2Q} 11:38, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

That's true! And you can never replace the Word of the Lord made flesh, who said to Simon, You are Peter (Rock) and on this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. As the Father has sent Me so I send you. And we have seen and testified that the Father sent His Son as the Savior of the World. The Church is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and the pillar and foundation of truth, built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles, and the Church is the Body of Christ, Who is with us always, even to the end of the world. And it is through the Church that the manifold mystery of God might be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavens, the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. And He sent on us the Holy Spirit to be with us for ever, even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, and He shall lead you into all truth. All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth, and whosoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives Me receives Him Who sent me, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore he who resists the authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur the judgment of God. Go and make disciples of all nations, (1) baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (2) teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. Even now there are many antichrists who have come. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. Moses said, "A Prophet like me shall the Lord raise up, and whosoever will not hear the words that He shall speak in My name, I will demand it of him." --IndependentSkeptic (talk) 03:15, 11 July 2020 (EDT)

With regard to World Evangelism, as explained in the Great Commission article, there is a good chance for a billion-soul-harvest in the next decade, although there are many divisions Satan is bringing in trying to stop it. So many think Christianity will grow from 2.5 billion strong to only about 3 billion strong by 2030. But I think there is a good chance Christendom can reach perhaps 3.5 billion by 2030 and hopefully 4 Billion by 2033. Those are great targets and may seem difficult to some, but Internet Evangelism now and in the next decade opens up nearly unlimited possibilities for the Gospel to reach every where in the world if only Christians are united and work together. I continue to pray and work for Christianity to reach those targets, as the Bible says a large number of servants is the glory of the King. I've already, by the Grace of God, helped lead former non-Christians, like one of my good friends a former Muslim, to the Lord Jesus and to Holy Baptism on Twitter. There are huge opportunities for the Gospel today. Realizing and taking advantage of those opportunities requires Christians to learn to work together and also to stop the petty bickering. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 00:03, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

""We are living in urgent times. We are living in historic times.

We are in the middle of the greatest battle for souls! Souls, souls, souls! And the enemy is busy trying to distract the church and divide her so that we will not gain greater ground and win souls for Christ.

Stop the small dissensions and stop the immature bickering! It’s time for the Church to rise up with truth and love in the greatest hour of earth’s history. Now is the time for the Church to stand united and win in these battle for souls." http://b100lim.org/3-major-signs-of-the-billion-soul-harvest/ NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 00:03, 9 July 2020 (EDT)

RobSmith's unBiblical rejection of ongoing sacrifices

I have shown countless proofs, including from the Greek, that Holy Mass is an ongoing sacrifice. I can show it from Psa 4:6 and Heb 9:23, from 1 Pet 2:5 and countless other places. Here are some Bible verses on ongoing sacrifices.

Hebrews 13:16: Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God. Romans 12:1: I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

Hebrews 13:15: Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.

1 Pet 2:4-5: As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:2: He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

We are to make ongoing spiritual sacrifices for the ongoing sins of all the world. These spiritual sacrifices are acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 02:49, 11 July 2020 (EDT)

Psa 4:[6] Offer up the sacrifice of justice, and trust in the Lord: many say, Who sheweth us good things? Heb 9:[23] It is necessary therefore that the patterns of heavenly things should be cleansed with these: but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 02:51, 11 July 2020 (EDT)