May he touch you with his noodlely appendage! Ramen!
Here's what I actually wrote:
==Why Atheism is ridiculous==
::When you decide to grow up and talk like an adult, then pick the word that makes you happy: God, Marduk, Luck, Shiva, ''g'' (the imaginary catalyst, see [[Atheism vs. Deism]]). Only when you have a word to describe everything can you examine what God means or is. [[User:Everwill|Everwill]] 19:09, 29 April 2007 (EDT)
^^^ Everwill in both cases you have managed to embody the very (self made) characterization of your opponent in an attempt to do exactly what you are trying to accuse him/her of doing. In case you didn't know, although I am sure you do, FSM is an established critique of theism that this individual did not simply make up here. I have yet to see a theist come close to disputing it as a viable challenge to their own reliance on a flying speghetti monster with a different name. Every single aspect of how FSM theory correlates to "real" religion is dead on. Snarky, ill-constructed shadow boxing around the point being clearly made doesn't make that point go away. Neither do lame attempts to personify your commentary as wizened and somehow graced with more "maturity." You lost the debate as soon as you entered it and offered nothing but ornamental distrations and shameless ineptitude recast as "enlightented" condescension. In fact, if anything you have made the entire point of FSM better than you adversay ever could have. - JBall
So you agree with me that the existence of Ra, Zeus or Marduk is equally plausible as the existence of the Abrahamic God? [[User:Middle Man|Middle Man]]
::When I say the source that says creationists use the scientific account of Genesis, I mean the one that was provided earlier in the debate[http://www.interacademies.net/Object.File/Master/6/150/Evolution%20statement.pdf]. I really do not understand what umbrage you take over the “scientific account” statement. What makes it so twisted is that you state that saying “Genesis is a scientific account” and that “Genesis is scientifically accurate” imply two different things and that to say that Genesis is a scientific account is misleading. How exactly is this misleading and how does a different syntax (in this instance) imply something else? I am also curious to know why you accept the possibility that the Flat Earth Society is a joke. Accepting the possibility of two different things being dubious has nothing to do with whether or not the two juxtaposed things are related other than in the context of whether or not their legitimacy is dubious. So if you give the possibility that the Flat Earth Society is a joke, you might as well bring up the possibility that the Bible is a collection of faerie tale annals. Why the double-standard?
::In your previous post, you select a quote from my previous post like this: "...if you want to accept ... that Charles Darwin lied in his journal ...". Yes, I indeed said that but you left out that I said that "if you want to accept the assumption" between the ellipsis. I said you only assume so. In an earlier post, you said about Darwin's journal entry: "How do you know that Darwin didn't lie?". Thus, you give the possibility that he lied (although, you don't support this assertion with any facts).
::In the event that you disagree that the Bible is not the stuff of legends, I must ask how does the Bible differ from any other archaic texts that describe things not known to be observed by a scientific consensus such as dragons or leviathans? Sure, it may be held to have historical accuracy. The Nibelungenlied served as a useful tool for historians to uncover the history of the Burgundians. However, the details about Siegfried and the dragon are usually considered to be legends. (One may choose to reject these considerations made by historians and believe the legends, of course.) I'm just curious as to how the Bible differs from such other legendary manuscripts. But if you insist on seeing a legitimate source that agrees with my point about the Bible being the stuff of legends, I feel obliged to reveal one[httphttps://www.britannica.com/eb/article-35341/Judaism].
::Regarding those scripture references, how do you cite the assertion that Bible sceptics merely playing with words? There ''is'' certainly a problem in the scripture. Earth is not round. It is spherical. It is incorrect to say that it is round. Bible sceptics do not "falsely" claim that creationists take the Bible literally. The argument presented in Bible scepticism is that if one were to take Genesis literally, then why not take the songs in Psalms or 1 Samuel literally? After all, the Church took the songs in 1 Chronicles and Psalms literally that state Earth is stationary. If they knew beforehand that Earth does not rest on pillars, why would they put it in a song? In 1 Samuel, it's not even a song. It's a prayer. Why would Hannah state in a prayer that God does something he really doesn't? Then there are fundamentalists that say homosexuality is an abomination because the the Bible says so. However, they tend to ignore some of those passages that give some precepts that would be considered wacky today. If we must follow the passages in the Bible that say homosexuality is an abomination, why don't fundamentalists follow those passages that say we cannot cut our hair (Leviticus 19:27), mix textiles for attire (Leviticus 19:19), eat anything with blood (Leviticus 19:26) (I don't see fundamentalists objecting to restaurants serving rare steaks), women teaching men (1 Timothy 2:12), tattooing, and piercing (Leviticus 19:28). Oh, and let us not forget those many passages that justify slavery and cruel and unusual punishment. My point is that there are parts of the Bible (including Genesis) which are not only scientifically inaccurate, but do not represent even the norms of most Christian fundamentalists today. Historically, there have been fundamentalists who have used the Bible to oppose scientific views such as the Church opposing the astronomical viewpoints of Galileo and fundamentalists who have used the Bible to promote intolerance such as those who justified racism with the Curse of Canaan. And today, there are fundamentalists who are using the Bible to oppose scientific views such as creationists opposing the evolutionary viewpoints of Charles Darwin and fundamentalists who are using the Bible to promote intolerance such as those who justify homophobia with passages in Leviticus. It just shows that history repeats itself and I have yet to see how the abuse of dubious Bible passages regarding moral and scientific viewpoints from today's fundamentalists differ from those in the past.
::I am aware of Galileo's faithfulness to Christianity in spite of his clash with the Church, but I didn't know that the Church was adopting secular views which he opposed. That seems quite ironic, especially considering Galileo's situation. Could you cite this assertion? In regards to those passages that contradict science which are now ignored by fundamentalists, they include those passages that say that Earth is stationary. The fact that the Church took those passages literally which resulted in a clash between the Bible and astronomy proves that there are passages which fundamentalists will defend in spite of scientific evidence against them, kind of like creationists today objecting to evolution! [[User:Kilmarnock|Kilmarnock]] 22:34, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
:You quoted me as saying “…it shows that you simply don’t understand evolution.” And you ask me how that is so. But you removed the first part of the sentence which actually has your answer in it. My words in full were: “When you say that the people who are unable to observe the events that say happened (in regards to evolution), it shows that you simply don’t understand evolution.” There’s your answer as to “how it shows that”. The people who observe evolution are able to observe the events that occur. Evolution has been observed since Charles Darwin himself experimented with it. As I have said before, if you do not understand the subject, you cannot argue against it, let alone reject it. So there is no reason to reject it simply because of religious interests.
:How exactly is evolution anti-Christian? Just because Darwin experienced a loss of faith, doesn’t mean that evolution is inconsistent with Christianity. As I have said before, there are unscientific factoids in the Bible (even irrelevant to evolution) that many Christians ignore because of scientific evidence, thus a large majority of Christians accept evolution as a fact and still believe in God. But you also say that evolution was used as a tool to “replace God”, well remember that Christianity is not the only monotheistic religion in the world. If the intention of evolution was to “replace God” then evolution wouldn’t simply be anti-Christian but anti-religioustheist. But since there are theistic evolutionists who have proposed evolution before Darwin , this goes to show that the idea that evolution was meant to “replace God” is wrong. Keep in mind that evolution is not a political position. If you are referring to Darwinism as having the motive of “replacing God”, that is no less dubious than the previous claim. Darwinism is merely the specific observations and hypotheses of evolution as Charles Darwin recorded it. It bears nothing of a political agenda in the scientific observations, regardless if some evolutionary theorists have suggested that this is the case. They have nothing to verify this with but speculation.
:You say that it is incorrect that “Evolution is based on the scientific method which requires experimentation and evidence, something which it has provided.” But you only select a specific example without observing the actual examples that have been tested in laboratories. Animals have been observed to have mutated through ancestral genes. Animals have been especially observed to mutate to adapt to a change in environment to sustain the survival of their kind (i.e. evolution). One of the most prominent examples of this mutation is that of Darwin ’s finches. When Darwin performed experiments in the Galapagos Islands , he introduced a species of finches in an environment of slightly larger nuts to crack with their beaks. Within a period of only a few generations of these finches, the width and strength of the beaks of the descendant finches had greatly increased to suit the environment of larger nuts as food. This observation was only a fig-leaf. However, the idea of introducing animals into another environment in which they must mutate to adapt to their surroundings in order to survive has been proven to be successful with scientific experiments. Given these scientific experiments and the fossil record of common ancestry with many animal species, evolutionary biologists are able to observe the DNA of the fossils and compare it with the DNA of the hypothetical descendants of these creatures to determine that the evolutionary mutations of these creatures over long periods of time are successful in providing evidence for evolution. And your statement that evidence today states that fish cannot evolve into amphibians is incorrect. Fossils of amphibious fish known as fishapods have been found and the experimentation I have just explained has provided scientific evidence that just as trout had to mutate to survive in brackish water and salt water, the common ancestors of many fish alive today had indeed mutated to survive in both water and air environments. And we still see evidence of close descendants of fishapods today (i.e. lungfish). So no, it is not merely “faith”. Faith doesn’t work in scientific experimentations. As I have said before, if you do not understand the subject, you cannot argue against it. No evolutionary biologist will tell you it is only their “faith” that assures them of the plausibility of evolution.
:You’ve already said before that evolution is storytelling (although are unable to support this statement). Now you ask how an eyewitness account counts as storytelling. Well, for all we know, Genesis isn’t even an eyewitness account. But that’s beside the point. Look up “storytelling” in a dictionary. It fits perfectly with your description of Genesis. It is merely the telling of a creation story, hence storytelling. How this is any more plausible than any other versions of creation storytelling is something you have yet to explain.
:So you say that you only accept the possibility that the Flat Earth Society is a joke simply because you don’t know much about it. Well, remember what I said about how if you do not understand the subject, you cannot argue against it. Even you have a similar statement in which you say that I would have no business to argue against something I know nothing about. So why are you just assuming the possibility that the Flat Earth Society is a joke without even researching the Flat Earth Society? I have researched the society and it is certainly no joke. You are using a double-standard by dismissing the evidence for the Bible’s dubious claims as a “possibility that it is a joke”, but at the same time, you don’t accept the possibility that the Bible is a collection of faerie tale annals because unlike the Flat Earth Society, you have extensively researched the Bible. So by researching a topic that supports your belief and ostracising evidence against it, you are employing a double-standard.
:If you think it is possible that he lied, do you not assume so? If you don’t then why would you even bring it up? The same principle applies to the previous argument. You have absolutely no evidence to back up your claim, yet you either assume or simply present the possibility that something is dubious without even researching it. If you indeed assume that Darwin lied (but you first must know of the subject before you make any assumptions), why don’t you accept the possibility that the Bible is just a collection of faerie tale annals (without using subjective support for this claim).
:No, my question does not imply that the only parts of the text in archaic manuscripts that are accepted as fact are observed by scientists. In fact, I made the later statement that parts of many archaic manuscripts are used by historians. So that whole rant about how Caesar Augustus ruling Rome is not observed by scientific fact is moot. Like I have said before, many archaic texts have been useful in determining past history. Yes, the Bible is a very reliable document but so is the Nibelungenlied. Even other documents, especially such Middle Eastern flood epics besides that of Noah’s ark have been of use to archaeologists in the research of natural history (e.g. the Epic of Gilgamesh). Now, if you know of the fulfilment of prophecies in the Bible, you would first have to verify them to give the Bible any more legitimacy over other archaic manuscripts.
:Actually, there is no reason to think that the dragon legends have any basis in fact. Dinosaurs went extinct approximately sixty-five million years ago, long before anything closely humanoid appeared on Earth. Yet, you don't believe in in evolution and you think that Earth is only 6,000 years old. Well, I can prove your idea of Earth's age wrong in a plethora of different ways, but I'll just be specific with the dinosaurs. Archaeologists use stratification to determine the age of the soil in which the dinosaur was fossilised which is a process that involves dating the soil based on the half-lives of rock samples in which the fossils are found in. These different half-lives constitute the different eras of natural history. However, no dinosaur remains have ever been found in soil with a half-life past the beginning of the Tertiary era. This pattern of a mass lack of fossils of dinosaurs and several other animals that are now extinct constitutes the K-T boundary which points to a mass extinction event cause by hypothetically increased volcanic activity or a major meteor impact. As for humans, not only does Darwinism verify our evolution from a common primate ancestor, but geological dating additionally verifies that it was impossible for dinosaurs and humans to have lived in the same era.
:In the article you provide, it says that the Church rejected Galileo's hypothesis (Copernican cosmology) for a hypothesis that was considered to be un-Christian (Aristotelian cosmology) and then goes on to say how the Church rejected those Biblical texts that contradicted Aristotle. Since the passages that contradicted Aristotle were disregarded by the Church, those same passages must have contradicted the passages that support the claim that Earth is stationary. Thus, the Church would have had the option of accepting the assumption that Earth is not stationary based on a cosmological view supported by the scripture (Copernican cosmology) or accepting the assumption that Earth is stationary based on a cosmological view also supported by the scripture (Aristotelian cosmology). So upon accepting either assumption, the Church would have been inevitably "accepting secularised views" because either one would have contradicted the scripture. [[User:Kilmarnock|Kilmarnock]] 02:05, 21 May 2008 (EDT)
[[Category:Conservapedia Debates]]