Talk:Deceit

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10 Commandments

I don't think the reference about removing the 10 Commandments from schools really shows that you're going for. The decision was to remove any physical depiction of the 10 Commandments, which has nothing to do with whether morals are taught in schools. Jrssr5 12:20, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

"Nothing to do with morals are taught in schools"? You can't be serious. That's like saying "2+2=4" has nothing with whether "2+3=5". If the Ten Commandments can't be on the wall, then they can't be taught for normative purposes in textbooks either.--Aschlafly 17:22, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Yes I am serious. To use your example you don't need a poster that says 2+2=4 to learn that or to know it. Jrssr5 18:41, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Character education is a big part of the curriculum these days, and I've yet to see a school library without a bible in it. Maestro 00:47, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

Reference to the Ten Commandments is relevant to that page, not this one. Same for public schools. Deleted part about deceit not being taught in public schools. It's ridiculous to note on every page whether something is or is not taught in liberal American public schools (the list would be too long). --Ursus 13:07, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

contradiction in the definition

I am not sure why I am getting involved with this, but here goes:

• " Deceit is the fraudulent representation of a material fact, made intentionally or recklessly or without reasonable basis and with the intent to induce reliance on the falsehood".
• "Traditionally deceit was taught as being wrong and in violation of the Ten Commandments" -"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor".

The logic implied therefore is that'all deceit is prohibited by the 10 commandments.

However, bearing "false witness against a neighbour" is not the same as "fraudulent misrepresentation of a material fact", and does not encompass all the things that the latter could possible include. For example, claiming that you have a PhD when you do not have one is clearly deceit, but I cannot find anything in the 10 commandments that tells me I should not do it. I am not stealing; I am not bearing false witness against a neighbour. Am I coveting? I don't think so. As far as the ten commandments is concerned, I can get away with it.

Under these circumstances, the statement concerning the 10C needs to be amended to say: "Deceit has traditionally been viwed as being morally wrong and in many respects it is in violation of the Ten Commandments, especially those deceits which involve harm or malpractice to another person" --SeanTheSheep 16:30, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Sometimes deceit can also be stealing - if you are trying to get advantages by deceiving. For example that kind of telling you have a PhD can have this kind of wrong motive. --Aulis Eskola 17:36, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Most crimes entail deceit, but the point here is when deceit is the primary wrongdoing.--Aschlafly 17:53, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

You seem to be missing the point. I am not saying deceit is right, far from it. I am saying that the statement that "deceit is ... in violation of the Ten Commandments" is not correct, as some deceits are NOT in violation of any of the 10 commandments.--SeanTheSheep 18:23, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Sean, I thought I made the change you requested. Sure, some deceits are justified, just as self-defense can justify killing in rare circumstances. But the statement is correct, that deceit has traditionally been taught as being wrong under the Ten Commandments.--Aschlafly 18:24, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Apologies, had missed that in the article, I was still responding to the stuff on the talk pages. Thank You. I shall now go back to what I know best.--SeanTheSheep 18:37, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

Politicization

So, regarding this edit war, the two sentences seem to suggest two things:

1. They suggest that all Conservatives are not deceitful, and that all Liberals are deceitful. That is a perfect definition of stereotype, and I'm sure we can agree that stereotypes suck.
2. Reference #2 suggests that only conservatives teach their children the ten commandments, therefore implying that A). Liberals cannot be Christians, and B). All Liberals are atheists.

Am I the only one who notices this? --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 19:36, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

No, you are not the only one. The universal statements are a little misleading, though I personally agree with what is said for the most part.Богдан ^Talk 19:40, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

So you agree that all liberals are atheist deceivers, and all conservatives are "true" Christians and always honest? --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 19:43, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

No that is not what I meant at all. Refering to groups, any groups, in terms of "all" is never a good thing to do, and should be somehow worked out. Богдан ^Talk 19:47, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

So it's not deceit when the army lies about Tilman, it's not deceit in the case of Iran-Contra or Watergate or the "slam-dunk" or "sexing up" intelligence reports or plagiarizing someone's report when speaking to the UN. Maybe this article needs to flat out say what the people who run this website obviously want it to say and define deceit as "what happens when anyone whom it is politically convenient to call a liar lies" and at least be a little less deceitful about it. Sevenstring 20:03, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

REPLY TO ABOVE: The statement does not say that all liberals are deceitful. I don't think all liberals are. And I don't think all conservatives are honest. But conservatives do teach that deceit is wrong, and liberals do not teach that deceit is wrong. That's a fact. Compare a public school classroom, where you won't hear that deceit is wrong, with a conservative classroom, where you will hear that. This is not a politicization. This is observable fact.

Sevenstring can suggest other examples of deceit comparable to the ones listed. But the examples he identified are not comparable, because in those cases deceit was not embraced for ideological gain as it was in the listed examples.--Aschlafly 20:13, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

P.S. I just rolled back the Tillman example, because that was not deceit for any gain. It is common practice for the military, dating back to the death of Benny Goodman (?) by friendly fire during WWII, to glorify the victims of war and minimize embarrassment. JFK's heroism in his PT boat was actually the result of incompetence; Kerry's heroism was questionable also. There is nothing new about this and the military is not guilty of deceit in the same way as the listed examples.--Aschlafly 20:16, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

So the whole big push to punish plagiarising in public schools (two of my friends got failing grades for that), expelling people for cheating on tests, etc. (another friend got nabbed for that), and punishing kids for lieing to teachers are just coincidences, right?

Once again, Andy, you are stereotyping the entire public school system. Perhaps instead of saying that "liberals don't teach that deceit is wrong", it can be phrased as "the public school system does not teach that deceit is wrong". Both statements are completely false, but at least it's a step towards the truth.

And as for Tillman; it doesn't matter the tradition or context which it is in; it's still deceit. And I don't see Watergate on there, or the Lewinsky scandal. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 20:17, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

P.S. and really, not only Conservatives teach the ten commandments. Call me a heretic, but I'm pretty sure the 10C are standard throughout all kinds of Christianity. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 20:20, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Oh, come off it - how, exactly, does fudging the truth to justify a war not fall under the rubric of "deceit" for "ideological gain?" Or breaking into the opposing party's headquarters and then using the state apparatus to cover it up in order to win an election? By your own definition, weak as it is, those are textbook examples. And who says that there needs to be ideological gain for deceit to occur? Sevenstring 20:21, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Folks, you're in denial. I know what's taught in public schools. Hoji, if you're in public school, I challenge you to find anything in any of your textbooks, lecture notes, writing assignments, etc., that says deceit is wrong. It's not there, and that is because liberals run public schools. It is there in conservative classrooms. Sure, plagiarism and cheating are punished if someone is caught, but that can be explained by self-interest better than teaching it is "wrong".

Sevenstring, your complaint is that the list is not longer. Present something as airtight and long-lasting as the current examples and we'll include it. Delaying a few weeks before telling the truth about Tillman's death does not come close, not by a long shot. That TEMPORARY deceit could just as easily be justified as honoring Tillman rather than benefiting anyone, and the military has been doing that for decades without complaint in many celebrated cases. Shall we put JFK's PT boat incident in the list also???--Aschlafly 20:27, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

As for JFK's PT boat incident, if it is relevant, then sure, put it on. And as for the schools, you seem to be equating "liberal" with "public schools", which is certainly wrong. I grew up in a liberal household, and was taught that deceit is wrong. I am sure that the vast majority of all American families teach their kids that deceit is wrong; it is not a good way to win arguments, friends, or respect. In the public schools, deceit isn't taught to be wrong because there isn't an obsession with teaching moral behavior, because schools rely on parents to choose the moral education they give their children. If anything, I would say that Conservatives are just as deceitful as liberals; everything on AiG, for instance, is intentionally spun to persuade, even if that means leaving out relevant facts. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 20:32, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Please excuse my vitriol, but Andy, I have been following this for a long time, and you have never cited ANYTHING to back up your bizarre assertions about liberals and deceit. I am liberal (mm..refreshing), I don't believe in deceit, neither do my children. In fact, neither do any of my friends, who are mostly liberal. You should be ashamed of yourself. Oh, that's right, im about to be banned for speaking my mind, and the truth. OneLove 20:49, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

ASchlafly, did you even read my post? My complaint is not that " the list is not longer," but that by YOUR definition of, essentially, lying in the name of the advancement of political ideology, the discourse leading up to the invasion...errrrrrrrr liberation of Iraq was deceitful. As was Watergate. "The Trustworthy Encyclopedia," indeed. Sevenstring 21:10, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Liberals don't teach that deceit is wrong. "OneLove", do you teach that deceit is wrong? Did you ever hear public school, which is run by liberals, teach that it is wrong? Please answer without making absurd remarks like I "should be ashamed of" myself. You're not helping your cause.--Aschlafly 21:21, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm going to attempt to draw a conclusion based on your logic, Andy;

• Catholicism is a branch of Christianity
• Catholics believe the Pope is divinely appointed by God.
• Therefore, all Christians believe that the Pope is divinely appointed by God.

Here, Catholicism represents the public school system, the Pope represents deceit, and Christianity represents liberals. You know that the above scenario is wrong, because it is based on faulty logic. Also, public schools certainly do not teach that deceit is right, which you are seeming to imply. As an organ of the federal government, in accordance with the first amendment, schools do not teach about morality. So, using faulty logic, I draw that liberals are more patriotic! --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 21:24, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm sorry, Andy, I would be happy to answer more specifically. I used to be a public school teacher, in South San Francisco (NOT affiliated with San Fran in ANY way). I, of course, taught that deceit was wrong DAILY. Every single time a student would try to lie, or "pull one over" on me, I would explain to them why that was the wrong thing to do. I'm not sure why you would think any public school teacher would do otherwise. At least, none of my colleagues encouraged deceit. Given humans are fallible, I'm sure some teachers are as well. I quit teaching because of the general underfunding in schools in California. Also, to assert "the public schools are run by liberals" is patently ridiculous. Some school boards are quite liberal, some quite conservative, and they tend to swing back and forth--usually in reaction to a previous board being to extreme in their liberalism or conservatism. So, I'll add again, you should be ashamed. You prove that either you are deceitful or ignorant or both, but I won't generalize to all conservatives, because that would be incorrect stereotyping. OneLove 21:51, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

OneLove, when did you teach: 1950? Anyone familiar with public schools today would find your claims to be so out-of-date as to be absurd. The word "wrong" in a moral sense has not been used in public school for at least a decade. Kids can be busted for drugs in the bathroom of the school and still the term morally wrong won't be used. I had my kids in public school, and I follow them closely.--Aschlafly 21:59, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

In all honesty, Andy, I am undoubtedly the most qualified in this debate to comment on the current status of public schools, seeing as how I actually attend one, and deal with these non-issues you talk about regularly. And I do not see why you decided to drag the public school system into this, as the gross stereotype still exists on the page; the idea that "liberals", as a group, do not teach about the wrongness of deceit, is simply absurd. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 22:03, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Hey, I'm a qualified attender also!Богдан ^Talk 22:05, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

First, OneLove, was NOT a sock of userP,,,s. Second, I have it on good authority that he taught public school in the early to mid nineties, not the 1950s. You are falling back on some shaky debating tactics. Oh, time to ban me for being a sock of OneLove, who was not a sock of p...s.Downinmyheart 22:07, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

• Do any of you above have cites showing the "improvement" of public education over the past 20 years? And if you produce them, do they take into account the lessening of academic standards and wholesale changes to the curriculum over the years to make it appear to be getting better? I have to tell you all the major and politically diseperate academic organizations don't see improvement. Is this really the argument you want to make, that public schools are "fine"? --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 22:46, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

No, the public school issue was a distraction; the actual issue was the line "Conservatives teach that deceit is wrong. Liberals do not teach that deceit is wrong", which is completely absurd. Following this, Andy attempted to equate "Liberals" with "public school system". --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 22:48, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Public schools are a perfect example of liberals who teach. I'm open to other examples, such as liberal philosophers.

A substantial percentage of liberals are atheists who doubt anything is morally right or wrong. For them to teach that "deceit is wrong" would be, well, deceitful in itself!

Rereading OneLove's claim above that he "taught that deceit was wrong DAILY" makes me wonder if he is being deceitful here. Not even the clergy teaches that deceit is wrong DAILY. I've observed on this website that some liberals actually enjoy being deceitful.--Aschlafly 23:34, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

• Since this is a self-admitted and proclaimed Conservative and Christian-friendly encyclopedia, there is nothing distracting in Andy's comments. I would submit that moral relativism and equivalency, along with historically revisionist thinking, which are an inarguable part of todays public school curriculum, do foster the "if it feels good do it" 60's mentality. I have several currently teaching relations, in rural and urban areas. Most of them have confirmed for me tonight, that teaching "right and wrong" as it once was, has been ditched in favor of non-judgemental lessons, and a reliance on "gray areas". --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 00:01, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Still, the blanket statement is misleading; there certainly are conservatives who deceive (and teach that deceit is right), and there are certainly liberals who teach that deceit is wrong. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 01:09, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Michigan's Department of Education requires public schools to teach students a certain set of Core Democratic Values. One of those values is Truth. TigersRoar 21:20, 8 July 2007 (EDT)

Interesting, unless you're joking. Can you provide the link for that so I can confirm and see exactly how it is required? Godspeed.--Aschlafly 21:23, 8 July 2007 (EDT)

Archiving

Someone who won't get yelled at like I do, would you be so kind as to archive this page and leave the section "10 Commandments" as the beginning piece? Thanks oodles! --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 00:06, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Done. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 01:11, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

• You are so much more than kind, even if you won't share your box with everyone. :-( How do you get those neat accents on your sig? In my most Liberal whine, I feel so much less than without a cool sig! --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 02:02, 29 May 2007 (EDT)

Democratic Party

David Limbaugh accused Democratic leaders of "deceit" on Iraq. He says they don't really intend to "win" in Iraq, butm want us to withdraw so that we will "lose" (which, by the way, is what happened when we withdrew from Vietna: an even worse tyranny was created in the entire country than ever existed in South Vietnam: compare 20,000 "tiger cage" deaths South Vietnam to 500,000 post-ware executions in North Vietnam. I think we also have to count the 250,000 to 500,000 boat people who died escaping the Communists.)

• Nothing better illustrates the Democrats' duplicity and emptiness concerning Iraq than the manifestly contradictory statements of two of their leaders in the last few days preceding the election. Rep. John Murtha, who probably represents the bulk of his party, reiterated his nauseating, America-denigrating contention that the United States cannot win militarily in Iraq. We must resolve this matter diplomatically, he said, meaning we must negotiate with terrorists, and we must redeploy, meaning withdraw – very, very soon.Then, after Sen. Elizabeth Dole said that Democrats are content with losing the war in Iraq, Sen. Chuck Schumer replied indignantly, "Democrats want to win the war by changing the war strategy."
• Now, should we believe Murtha or Schumer? Does Schumer really expect us to believe he has experienced a miraculous, neoconservative conversion, or is he just lip-syncing? That's a no-brainer: Of course he isn't sincere in saying Democrats want to win in Iraq by changing the strategy in Iraq. That would put him at odds with 90 percent of the Michael-Mooreized Democratic base and with the pronouncements of his party's leadership over the last year.
• Dress it up however you like, Democrats are advocating an almost immediate withdrawal from Iraq before the Iraqi security forces are capable of sustaining their nation's security and newly formed government. [1]

Is this an "example of deceit", or just a partisan criticism of the Democratic Party by a conservative? The answer will determine where I place this quote. --Ed Poor ^Talk 08:45, 10 July 2007 (EDT)

American Public Schools

"The American public school system does not teach that deceit is wrong, at least not using the Ten Commandments." It is my belief that this statement is misleading, it provides the suggestion that the Ten Commandments are required to teach that deceit is wrong. Just as it is possible to teach that murder is wrong without referring to the 10 Commandments it is just as possible to teach that deceit is wrong without referring to them, and there is no source to support a claim that the American Public School system does not teach that deceit is wrong, albeit without the 10 Commandments (my original reason for the citation template). Really, this article does not need the statement, and it has already been extensively covered in the 10 Commandments article. EQ 23:59, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

• The American public schools teach moral relativism. How does one get a clear idea of "right" and "wrong" when one is taught all such things are relative? I unlocked the article. --Sysop-TK _{--Talk 2 Me} 00:13, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

Character education is a BIG part of the curriculum these days. Try googling it. Here's just one link. I'd be happy to discus this further with anyone who feels there's a moral vacuum among teachers these days. Maestro 00:50, 29 July 2007 (EDT) http://www.goodcharacter.com/

• Character education, taught from a secular-progressive POV, is nothing. Since they cannot bring themselves to actually say "anything" is "wrong", it is meaningless. --Sysop-TK _{--Talk 2 Me} 01:49, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

We constantly say things are wrong: stealing, hurting, lying, etc. Some of our students are of religions other than Christianity...would it be right to instruct a Buddhist student using Christian scripture? Maestro 09:34, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

• Yes, of course it would, in the United States! We are a Judeo-Christian country. We have achieved what we have here by virtue of being a "melting pot", not a balkanized hodge-podge of competing cultures. While the secular-progressives might wish it to be multi-cultural, with each and every ethnic and religious group clinging to their "Mother Culture", that is exactly the cause of the slaughter's in Africa and East Europe. Teaching a Buddhist Christian scripture in no way "demeans" their own. But it does teach them valuable lessons, and offers them understanding and insight into their new country and its attendant culture. You say you are constantly telling them things are wrong; Do you tell them why? And if so, what are those "non-religious" reasons? --Sysop-TK _{--Talk 2 Me} 10:28, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

No American public schools teach that anything is "wrong". Maestro, post here the quote and citation of any textbook used in public school that says something is morally "wrong". As one would expect, eliminating God from public schools has also eliminated morality in terms of right and wrong. Godspeed.--Aschlafly 10:43, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

it took me 30 seconds: Lying is wrong[2] Dkips 10:47, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

Some website? How is that related to public schools or their textbooks? I hope your editing here maintains a higher caliber than your research on this topic! --Sysop-TK _{--Talk 2 Me} 10:51, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

Right, TK. Dkips, what does that website have to do with public schools? Public school curricula are available online, I think. But you didn't cite to one. Godspeed.--Aschlafly 11:09, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

I wouldn't be surprised if you can't find a textbook that says lying is wrong. That sort of thing is taught in kindergarten, which doesn't use textbooks (it's also taught by parents at an even younger age, and it's they who have the real responsibility for moral instruction of their children, much moreso than government schools). Please do find me a textbook on moral relativism that is used in public schools. And, if we want to take the Bible literally, the ten commandments don't exactly teach deceit is wrong. They teach that bearing false witness against your neighbor is wrong, but bearing false witness is only a specific kind of deceit (there are countless lies oen can tell that do not involve bearing false witness against anyone). And if we want to be super-technical, it can be said that if someone lives far enough away from you that they wouldn't be considered a "neighbor" then it's perfectly fine to bear false witness against them. This morality is seeming slightly relative. PortlyMort 11:57, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

Public schools don't teach that deceit is wrong because that's something that's taught long before a child enrolls into the public school system. It's not that schools teach some sort of secular code of conduct or moral relativism - it's that they don't teach it at all because it's best taught by parents. Besides, there are many of us that view man as a creature endowed with a predisposition to perform goodness! Stryker 12:09, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

• Yes, public schools are often known to defer to parents with the utmost of respect. Just look at sex education; that's left strictly to the parents... Do you guys really think that by parroting each other that people won't see you're talking in circles? Apply some logic - don't make up phony reasons for why it's not taught and try to convince yourselves what you made up on the spot is true. Either it's taught or it's not. In fact, here's an easy one. Find me the curriculum that states what you said. Anything along the lines of "We don't teach that deceit is wrong because that is left to the parents and takes place before youngsters enter school." Want to find just one? Learn together 00:26, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

You want to apply some logic? Fine. You're committing a grievous logical fallacy in your argument; remember, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Do you honestly believe something as mundane as "deceit is wrong" should be a bullet point on a syllabus for a public school class? If you want to see how seriously public schools take student discipline, character, and behavior, just look at my old Code of Conduct from the JCPS: http://www.jefferson.k12.ky.us/Pubs/codeofconduct.pdf . ΨtrykeЯ ^eh?> 15:46, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

I'm sorry, but the code of conduct is sadly what I would expect it to be - a 25 page document outlining what is not acceptable in order to close all loopholes since anything that is not outlined, could be considered acceptable. And so you have warnings not to commit arson or kidnap other students. It seems to back Andy's views more than anything else -- the common understanding of morality that used to exist is gone.

Getting back to the other point, you still appear to be talking in circles. You are applying the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" as a catch all after getting called on your last assertion which came across as made up on the spot. I somehow doubt that schools are removing information that used to be taught to give parents greater autonomy over their children's lives. Of course you can tell me that in the schools you have contact with that morality, right and wrong, and deceit are taught as an important part of the education process, but I would have to wonder if that itself wouldn't be an example of deceit. Learn together 02:03, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

Clinton

Should we mention Bill Clinton's deceitful testimony in the Paula Jones case? It got him impeached (but not removed from offices). There's the misleading bit about "I didn't have sex" (playing on whether oral sex counts as sexual intercourse).

Is it adultery and/or grounds for divorce on account of unfaithfulness if an ordinary man does what Clinton did with his intern? Is it sexual harassment, given the power imbalance between employer and employee?

Pat Tillman example needs work

"On 31 July 2007, the US Army censured three-star General Kensinger for "deception" in the friendly-fire death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman [3]"

I know this issue is loved by Bush-haters, but covering up friendly fire is common in many Administrations. Glenn Miller was killed by friendly fire and FDR covered it up. I don't see why this issue concerning Pat Tillman is given so much attention at the expense of other examples. We're not a vehicle for misplaced Bush-hating here. Godspeed.--Aschlafly 19:34, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

How about a general article on friendly fire first? --Ed Poor ^Talk 19:39, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

Well, I see you removed the information I'd added. I would point out three things:-

a) I'm not a "Bush-hater".
b) The issue is hardly being covered only by "Bush haters"! It's front page news on Fox News as we write! [4]
c) Why don't you add the into about Glenn Goodman [Miller] too? Deceit is deceit, whatever group it comes from.
It seems to me you're being very selective with the truth, and I think that's unfair to our troops. Friendly fire accidents are not partisan politics - they happen, it's tragic, but it's a consequence of war and the truth should not be hidden from the public by deceit. Just because it's not liberal deceit doesn't mean this incident is not deceit. NotForgotten 19:54, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

Your point is well taken. We could use some more information on Tilman and Goodman [Miller]. One of the virtues of a democracy with a free press is that errors and misconduct can be brought to light by ordinary citizens. When this is not done for partisan advantage, it's usually a good thing. --Ed Poor ^Talk 19:59, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

Exactly, Ed. I would do it, except I fear a ban from a certain someone if I put Tillman back in. Perhaps someone else would tackle it? It seems to me that an announcement that a three-star general is to be censured over the matter makes this a notable enough example of deceit in high places, and deserving of appearing in the article, and it will also make the article less biased. Deceit is practiced by all who are prepared to lie, regardless of the color of their stripes. NotForgotten 20:03, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

First, my mistake, it was Glenn "Miller", not Goodman. So I've inserted "Miller" above in brackets to prevent the error from propagating.

Second, no one is being blocked for this disagreement.

Third, more facts are needed. What was the alleged "deceit"? Why is this being singled out? Was was the motive for the deceit? Our examples have thorough proof of deceit on issues of extreme public importance. Why do you think covering up an incident of friendly fire, which happens in every military conflict, ranks so highly in importance? Godspeed.--Aschlafly 20:07, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

Thanks Andy. One point is that the Deceit article is extremely partisan and one-sided, and this type of bias is part of Conservapedia's credibility problem. Adding a publicly acknowledged incident from the 'other' side that is today part of the public record adds fairness and balance - a good thing, surely? As to the details of the incident, the report has yet to be published - I make no comment. However, in the context of the 'Deceit' article, since the three-star General is accused in public with the actual use of the word "deception", it seems more than appropriate for the article. As to the 'importance', I make no partisan claims one way or the other to the validity of the incident, but as a current example of deceit, I can think of no better example. And finally, while the Glenn Miller incident was friendly fire (and yes, that happens, and no political party is to blame for it), there was no cover-up or deceit involved, was there? NotForgotten 20:38, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

If you're trying to make the point that liberals aren't the only deceitful people in the world, I'll agree with you. The question is: should we use breaking news for an example? That's all.

Since you didn't jump in and help me write Pat Tillman, I went ahead and did it by myself. See also fratricide and friendly fire. (You can do free-fire zone if you have time.) --Ed Poor ^Talk 21:17, 31 July 2007 (EDT)

Another Example

Perhaps the works of Ernst Haeckel and his "contributions" to evolution should be considered? Learn together 11:48, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

Yes, that was a fraud that lasted for 100 years, long after the experts knew it was a fraud. Godspeed.--Aschlafly 12:00, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

Catalog or informative article?

Is this article intended to be a catalog of acts of deceit or an article describing what deceit is? If it's the latter, then the direction of the article needs to be re-though; it's not necessary to have ten different examples of deceit to convey what deceit is. This is expressly different from liberal deceit, which is actually of catalog of the subject matter. Maybe this article should be re-written to contain the "Top 3" examples that express what deceit is? ΨtrykeЯ ^eh?> 12:11, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

Public Schools

I don't see how you can make the claim that public schools don't teach that deceit is wrong when a large number of students are expelled for ACADEMIC DISHONESTY Dragonmaster 15:53, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

Are you including in your "academic dishonesty" the act of copying, word for word, a passage of text from another source without clearly demarking this passage with quotation marks? Aka plagiarism? Jazzman831 18:37, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

I busted kids left and right for that when I taught junior high. Maestro 18:38, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

BTW, since when have the commandments been 'banned'? They're not publically desplayed (believe it or not, some students follow other religions), but banned? There's a bible in every library. You make it sound like crack or guns or something. Maestro 10:23, 6 August 2007 (EDT)

The issue of whether deceit is ever justified is a deep and complex one. Is "tattling" always wrong? Is to "bear false witness" wrong because it is tattling, or because it involves deceit?

How about telling someone that a thing is okay when you know it is not, so they do it and get into trouble? We need to expand upon the ethics of truth and deceit. --Ed Poor ^Talk 14:37, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

I'll try this again: What does the second sentence of this page (that American public schools do not teach deceit is morally wrong) have to do with defining or describing deceit? That sentence should be eliminated or more institutions ignoring the teaching of deceit should be listed. My previous deletions have been reverted without explanation or citation, description or discussion. Is Conservapedia just a playground for people's pet pages, or are we actually interested in putting something together that correlates with the topics we try to discuss? Until it is addressed in some way, I feel like deleting the sentence is the best course of action, though I would like to see disucssion here before I try again. --Ursus 19:07, 4 September 2007 (EDT)

Ursus, you're not the first liberal to try to conceal the truth about public schools. They don't teach that deceit is wrong, and that statement is relevant because deceit by liberals is pervasive now. If public schools taught that deceit is wrong, then people wouldn't tolerate as much deceit as they do.--Aschlafly 19:21, 4 September 2007 (EDT)

First, thanks for immediately dragging this conversation into the gutter, Aschafly, by calling me a liberal. If you had phrased the actual Deceit page better, this conversation wouldn't be happening. Why not just put on the page something closer to what you just said? Something mentioning how the public schools are too liberal, manifesting a level of deceit. And is it really that big of a problem for you to actually talk to people about these issues/questions? Do you want good pages, or do you want pet-projects? Just in this one exchange, we've already identified a way to improve the page. Are your pages above that?

Reversion

This is a high-quality page. Additions to the list must be at the same quality level as existing examples. A liberal newspaper article claiming that a Republican lied about some fact doesn't cut it. Look at the examples, and please propose only additions at comparable level of significance, proof, and amount of deceit. Future reversions of low-quality examples will not be explained. Godspeed.--Aschlafly 18:33, 10 August 2007 (EDT)

I'm still amazed that Ted Haggard, who publicly preached against homosexuality (saying "We don't have to debate about what we should think about homosexual activity. It's written in the Bible"[5], and the National Association of Evangelicals under his leadership found "homosexual activity, like adulterous relationships, is clearly con­demned in the Scriptures"[6]) led a three-year homosexual relationship with a gay prostitute, complete with the use of methamphetamine. Hmm... the leader of a national body of Christians having gay sex behind his wife's back, while preaching against those same activities seems a bit deceitful. Oh well, I'm sure the whole thing is a big liberal conspiracy. --Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğ^θαλκ 02:50, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

By the way, Pastor Haggard spoke at my friends church two weeks prior to his being "outed", and I was fortunate enough to attend. It was a special evening sermon about sexual morality, and I can tell you from personal experience that he wasn't quite fond of homosexuals. (If you don't believe me, I'd be glad to email you contact info for the church). --Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğ^θαλκ 03:03, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Well, you'll notice that we don't have Bill Clinton and "that woman" as an example either. A benchmark is usually an intentional decision to mislead for personal gain that causes hardship to others by withholding information that could have been used to make honest, informed decisions. Whether or not Haggard had homosexual tendencies is not something that had a profound impact on the American public. Learn together 03:18, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

It's not "misleading" to preach against homosexuality to millions of people while engaging in a homosexual and adulterous relationship? As a major Christian leader, Haggard had a huge influence on the voting habits of Conservative Christians. And I'm still having trouble determining how number 11 had a profound impact on the public. And regarding Clinton, he wasn't actively speaking out against homosexuals and adulterers. Haggard was, and his platform was against homosexuality and adultery, both of which he committed. --Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğ^θαλκ 03:28, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

I think you overestimate Haggard's influece. The Haggard example seems like a better example of hypocrisy, not deceit. Bohdan 03:32, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

I don't think saying that the leader of the National Association of Evangelicals, who also was the pastor of a 14,000-member megachurch, and one of TIME's 25 most influential evangelicals has influence one the vote of CC's is an "overestimate". And he did deceive; he deceived his wife, his family, and his congregation. --Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğ^θαλκ 03:39, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Which sounds more like Haggard:

• "criticism of others, by a standard one does not apply to oneself" from hypocrisy

or

• "the deliberate distortion or denial of the truth with an intent to trick or fool another" from deceit? I say what he did was a better example of hypocrisy. Bohdan 03:42, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

So people who have committed adultery shouldn't think it's wrong, or speak out against it? Sin is sin, and if we happen to fall into sin it doesn't exonerate us or mean we can no longer speak out against it. If someone is a pedophile, that person still has the right to speak out against it, and that is not deceitful. If Haggard didn't believe the practice of homosexuality was wrong, but spoke out against it, and he received financial gain for his position, then I would certainly agree with you that would be deceitful. Learn together 03:44, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

• Hoji, is AmesG ghost writing your stuff now? :p --şŷŝôρ-₮K^{Ṣρёаќǃ} 06:59, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Perhaps, TK, I merely have my own viewpoints which happen to overlap with other people's in some areas. Learn together, do you think he would have been the head of the NEA if he had been preaching "homosexuality is OK"? As a mega-pastor, he received quite the salary - he was practically a celebrity. --Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğ^θαλκ 13:25, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

• Hoji, he could have quite possibly been President of the NEA (National Education Association) preaching "homosexuality is OK", being it is the Liberal/Left Wing organization that it is, but of course he would never have been President of the Evangelical association! But it is Apples and Oranges to compare the duties and responsibilities of the President of either NEA with those of the POTUS. A logical fallacy, that makes a good "show" argument, but one that doesn't hold up. That said, I am uneasy holding people up for their personal failings in regard to such things, Even President Clinton. However one had an elected trust with the people of the United States,300,000,000 of them, the other didn't. I was bothered much more by Clinton's equivocation (actual and moral) over the meaning of the word "is" and his allowing good Citizens' reputations to be smeared along with the attendant financial ruin. I was also affronted to be told by President Clinton and his agents that I was part of a "vast, right-wing conspiracy" in thinking what he did was wrong. At least Jimmy Swaggart, in picking up prostitutes not even six miles from my home, didn't blame me or deny what he had been doing and ruin other people's lives in the process. --şŷŝôρ-₮K^{Ṣρёаќǃ} 14:08, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

• I don't think you'd see him preaching homosexuality is ok because he doesn't believe it. From what I could tell, his preaching matched his beliefs. Some of the most vehement anti-smoking people I know with messages of 'don't ever start' and 'I wish I could quit' are those who are hooked on cigarettes. And let's be honest here, the man was hardly Fred Phelps. Homosexuality isn't a once a week topic and it wasn't a major part of Haggard's weekly messages. I just read a 6 page interview that Christianity Today did with him in November 2005. Although it touched on a multitude of different issues and his views, the only mention of homosexuality was that Haggard supported the Court's decision in Lawrence v Texas to stay out of the private life of homosexuals. Hardly seems deceitful does it? Learn together 02:21, 12 August 2007 (EDT)

Hoji, I agree that number 11 should be deleted for lack of significance. I didn't insert that item. Honestly, I don't think number 10 is significant enough either, but I tried not to be heavy-handed about this.

As to Haggard, it was a scandal but it was not "deceit" like the other examples. Maybe he was a hypocrite, but that is not "deceit" either. Perhaps the people who supported Haggard were deceived, but they are not significant in comparison to how the public was deceived in the other examples. By the way, I had never even heard of Haggard before the liberal media made this such a big deal just prior to the election. Adding Haggard to the list would require adding scores of liberals like Clinton, who pretended to have a good Christian marriage with Hillary, to the list too. That's not what this entry is about.--Aschlafly 15:03, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Every single example of deceict (except maybe that Dutch art forger) is of a liberal. Every time someone posts an example of conservative decption, it's deleated, with an explanation that it's a 'scandal' or a 'lie', but not 'deception.' Isn't is slightly deceptive to only include the deceit of one side of the political spectrum? Just my two cents. Maestro 17:47, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Some liberals delight in deceit, and they have succeeded in driving morality out of public schools. So it's not surprising that many major examples are about liberals. But I don't claim that "every single example" is about liberals. You seem to be drawing that conclusion.

Provide a conservative example of similar magnitude and it will remain there. But please don't simply post a scandal that is not really deceit, or an insignificant example.

Surely you don't expect deceit to occur as often by people who teach that it is wrong as those who don't.--Aschlafly 18:14, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Andy, your suggestion that all liberals practice and encourage deceit is utterly ridiculous. There are deceitful Christians, and there are deceitful conservatives. Many liberals are Christian, and many conservatives are as well. But to conflate "liberal" with "some public schools" is a pretty far stretch.

::Regardless, I think the word "Watergate" sums up a very well-known example of conservative deceit. --Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğ^θαλκ 18:19, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Hoji, do you really expect deceit to be correlated precisely 50/50 among two very different groups, liberals and conservatives?

Let's put this a different way. Do you think people who advocate legalizing drugs have a greater percentage of drug use than people who oppose legalizing drugs? Surely you don't think that correlation is a perfect 50/50 also. And if you agree that is unlikely to be evenly split, then why the claim that deceit must be evenly split also?--Aschlafly 19:31, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

The difference between your analogy and this situation is that both liberals and conservatives, by and large, teach that deceit is wrong. There aren't that many people out there (Christians, jews, muslims, atheists, agnostics, rastafarians, etc.) that actively advocate deceit. If I'm reading the analogy correctly (the drug-legalization advocates represent liberals, and the drug represents deceit), then this isn't congruent with the actual situation. And I've given two perfectly good examples of conservative deceit; I'm still waiting for a reply on the Watergate cover-up. --Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğ^θαλκ 19:43, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

I'm still waiting for Hoji to take back his all liberals practice comment, which comes directly after Mr. Schlafly's Some liberals delight. There's a big difference between some and all, well known to all intellectuals and philosophers since the time of Aristotle.

After you take that back, we can progress to your next error. ;-) --Ed Poor ^Talk 19:52, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

I formally retract my "all liberals practice" comment. It still seems that great lengths are being taken to keep conservatives off the list. --Ħøĵímαζĥŏήğ^θαλκ 19:54, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Hoji, how about this: people who support gun control are less likely to own guns than people who support the Second Amendment right to bear arms. Agree with that? If so, then why so much protest over a similar statement about deceit? Godspeed.--Aschlafly 20:33, 11 August 2007 (EDT)