View source for User talk:Aschlafly/Archive15

== Welcome to Students! ==

Students or parents, please post any questions here:

hey can i become an admin mr.schlafly? i catch alot of stuff and can only say something about it. i dont mind though if you say no. --[[User:Will N.|Will N.]] 12:10, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

*I have had interaction with Will, Andy...he mistook me for a Vandal! He's a good sport, and very polite. Someone to keep in mind. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 00:49, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== Nearly Headless Nick ==

Dear Aschlafly sir, I am the administrator who deleted the Conservapedia article on Wikipedia through a fair process called "Articles for Deletions" in the beginning; since then the article has been reinstated as it successfully cleared the conditions of inclusion on our website. I have already read the insightful discussions that the respectable members of this website have been having on my competitiveness for being an administrator on the English Wikipedia. I would be delighted to answer questions if you would like to interview me. Best wishes, --[[User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington|Nearly Headless Nick]] 21:07, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

: Well, by all means welcome!

: The deletion process at Wikipedia was not "fair".  The decision itself was without explanation, and followed much bullying on the talk page.  Several people had spent substantial effort on the entry that was wasted by a click of the mouse at (the liberal) Wikipedia.  The episode typified the reason for a "brain drain" at Wikipedia, as good work is tossed out at whim.  That the  decision was wrong was aptly illustrated by its reversal later, due to popular demand.  Last time I checked the entry on Conservapedia it was very biased against us, making statements that lacked verification and, at times, adding false claims simply designed to embarrass.  Not that I blame you for that, of course.

: By the way, don't you think your user id is, shall we say, a bit silly for an encyclopedia editor?  Please don't take that personally, but would you really expect a teacher (as I am) to cite your work?  Regardless, all the best to you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:33, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
:: Andy, how is the Conservapedia article at WP not good? I've been active there, rooting out bias! --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 21:35, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

::Yeah, riigggghhhtt! Has it been completely changed, lately, David? --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 21:44, 11 April 2007 (EDT)
:::Specific example of bias pl0x? --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 21:48, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

*Ahhh, no answer then?  That's ok. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 21:52, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: Hoji, I appreciate your efforts, but the Wikipedia entry on Conservapedia is filled with falsehoods, distortions, unsupported claims and an overall liberal bias.  Honestly, I don't know where to begin, as I saw perhaps 10 glaring defects in my read of it just now.  OK, I'll mention this:  there is no "concern" about our (more advantageous) copyright policy and the only support for this was ... Jimmy Wales!  Well, there's an unbiased copyright expert on this topic!  The whole Richard incident is a distortion that lacks any authoritative site also.  The criticism section is based on the phony claim that "social conservative" Tom Flanagan doesn't like our site.  I could go on and on but I won't.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:54, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

:::Alas, the first question you ask me, is the most difficult to answer. Why did I chose this username? I happened to be a happy young man, who used his own name as an identification in the sublime world of Wiki, and I was rudely brought down to Earth when a so-called friend of mine, gave my folks the [[Special:Contributions/Anirudhsbh]] link, which provided them each and every detail of my stint on Wikipedia. I decided on a whim that I should get my username changed to something which they could never guess; and then this weird idea flashed to my mind, coupled with the fact that EssJay, a former bureaucrat was available on IRC at the same time. I asked him to change it and he immediately complied. And hence I came to be known as Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington. I have been the derision of all the Harry Potter and Wikipedia jokes combined since then; and I never thought about changing it. Why? Because it was weird, and funny, and it made everyone laugh. Did it make me seem juvenile, a little bit, yes. But, let me assure you, dear sir, I am a 20-year-old law student from [[Gandhinagar]], India. As long as people remembered me and liked me, I felt no need to change it; and I really won't, even if it reflects badly on my maturity *shrug*. I edit Wikipedia for pleasure, and derive no monetary gain out of it. And this "weird" username also provides me cover from real-life stalkers, atleast temporarily. For now, the cover has been "blown" a lot of times already, my real name, home mailing address have been posted mercilessly by a stalker who somehow acquired those details.

:::: I certainly didn't expect hundreds of words in response to my comment about your assumed (phony) name.  It strikes me as anti-intellectual, which seems out of place in a serious encyclopedia.  But perhaps Wikipedia is not really a serious encyclopedia after all.  At any rate, the name issue is the least important concern.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:45, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

:::As for the deletion, I will try to explain the rationale here. This is the link to the discussion page where the deletion of the article was discussed &ndash; [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Conservapedia]. This is the link to the version of the page, which was in existence at the time of the running of the AfD &ndash; [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conservapedia&oldid=95871283]

:::Most of the users on the page agreed that there were no multiple, secondary (independent), reliable sources were not present to establish the notability of the article, which is the prime criterion of inclusion on Wikipedia as per our notability guidelines WP:N, WP:WEB. There were no ''secondary'', i.e. ''reputable'' and ''non-trivial'' sources outside of Conservapedia available to establish its notability at that period of time. Comments like these &ndash; ''The demand to delete "conservapedia" is a demand for a censorship.'' were frankly seen as straw man arguments. Google, at that particular point in time, did not provide sources outside of Conservapedia, or Wikipedia, where the article was in existence. Also, the information that one of the creators of the Conservapedia was involved in the creation and editing of the article raised concerns about WP:COI - Conflict of Interest. Wikipedia does not allow employees and those who are closely related to those projects so as to uphold "Neutrality" - one of the basic five pillars on which Wikipedia stands. And I will repeat again, we require a multiple number of non-trivial sources from reputable secondary sources. One cannot blog about himself on his blog and then claim notability by linking his own article to the pages of his blog. I have tried my best to achieve clarity here. Is there anything else I could help you with? --[[User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington|Nearly Headless Nick]] 22:19, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: But the lengthly description of the "Richard" incident does exactly that in Wikipedia's current entry:  it cites the person's own blog as "authority" for his criticism of Conservapedia.  So Wikipedia's rules are simply something to enforce selectively to suit the biases of the editors.

:::: The claim that the "creators of the Conservapedia was involved in the creation" of the entry at Wikipedia is completely new to me, and illustrates why it's important for a reason to be given for deletion.  I had no involvement in the entry's creation, and doubt the truth of the claim.  By relying on a biased, unsubstantiated claim, the decision itself was unjustified.

:::: The entry today about Conservapedia is riddled with falsehoods and bias.  Is that going to be fixed?  I doubt it given the liberal bias on Wikipedia.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:45, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

:::::Hm. Anti-intellectual. That's a point of view though. JK Rowling's raking in tonnes of pounds, is she not? She is richer than the Queen. Obviously, the thesis I write for Wikipedia are not going to gain my any recognitions, I would be attributed to them, ofcourse, but they are entirely worthless in academia. Writing for a national law journal pays more, even though it is extremely difficult to get one's research published in there.
:::::On articles - We try to present all the viewpoints in an article by providing all the sources we can get. You are welcome to edit and fix the article.
:::::(Ref. to the previous discussions about me in the archives) I was born a Hindu, so I do not have to answer why I chose a character from a so-called "anti-Christian" book to my religious gurus (I have none actually, I am agnostic!) Warm regards, --[[User:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington|Nearly Headless Nick]] 03:39, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

:::::: Your assumed name is a minor issue, but I clearly stated that my objection to the name is that it is anti-intellectual.  Do we really need an anti-intellectual encyclopedia?  How about an anti-intellectual school next, where the teachers have names like "Nearly Headless Nick" and "The Ostrich" (see Hartford story [http://www.courant.com/features/lifestyle/hc-pediareality.artapr12,0,5272073.story here])?

:::::: You left out something in your invitation to "edit and fix the article."  You didn't mention that Wikipedia editors hostile to conservative principles will edit, revert or delete corrections.  I think all of my factual edits on a variety of Wikipedia entries have been deleted due to its editor bias.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:26, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

Andy, levity is good in all things.  Surely you're not against fun.  As a Harry Potter fan, I appreciate your user name, Nick.  I would also like to join in saying that having factual edits deleted because of administrative bias is bad.  Of course, I pass no judgment on the merits of your case, Andy.  My experience is limited to this site.  And, I think it's more anti-intellectual to censor [[user:Palmd001|experts]] from using their expertise.-'''<font color="#007FFF">Ames</font><font color="#FF0000">G</font>'''<sub>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!]</sub> 13:47, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

: The "joke" is getting a little old, don't you think?  Who's kidding whom here.  Wikipedia is part of an anti-intellectual movement, and the mockery-by-name is a small part of that effort.  It's not just "Nearly Headless Nick," it's also "The Ostrich" (as observed by the Hartford Courant [http://www.courant.com/features/lifestyle/hc-pediareality.artapr12,0,5272073.story here]) and many other examples.  Just imagine a school pretending to be a house of learning, but where the teachers call themselves "Mickey Mouse" and "Donald Duck."--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:59, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
:: This ad hominem argument is drawing away from the point of the discussion. And Andy, just curious, how do can you say "Wikipedia is part of an anti-intellectual movement" (assuming you mean because common people can edit it), without being hypocritical (the same is true of CP)? --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 19:05, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Hoji, I don't think it's "ad hominem" to criticize certain ''fake'' names.  But that aside, Wikipedia editors share an agenda that is concealed and denied. Unlike Wikipedia, Conservapedia has no hidden agenda.  So hypocrisy, though a favored liberal epithet, does not apply to Conservapedia at all.

::: By the way, Wikipedia is anti-intellectual in ideology, not simply because "common people can edit it."  In fact, most common people ''cannot'' have their edits respected on Wikipedia, because most common people accept the Bible.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:12, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: OK, I was just trying to point out that the name criticism was drawing away from the point of the discussion. I also laugh at you calling "hypocrisy" a "favored liberal epithet", as it is thrown around often by both sides.
:::: And as for Wikipedia being biased; of course it is. But in respecting fact, they rationally see science as the basis for fact, and are creating a materialistic, natural encyclopedia, which Conservapedia should be ''complimenting'', not ''fighting'', by presenting a YEC viewpoint (because that's what Conservapedia is now). --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 19:34, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
::::: As a Christian, I see Jesus, not science, as being the basis for fact ("I am the way, the truth, and the life").  That's not to knock the usefulness of science, by the way.  And did you mean "complimenting" or "complementing"?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 21:41, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:I have to ask, where does all this hate against Wikipedia come from? Sure, they dont offer solely christian/american view of things, its an encyclopedia searched and used by millions of people of diffrent fates and nationalityes. And in all honesty, i have to say that while it might not be perfect it manages quite well on its task to maintain neutral point of view. There are ofc some articles with questionable content. with 1 700 000 articles on english and edited by numerous users there is bound to be some that have bias or factual errors. But tell me, would you think an muslim from Saudi Arabia or hindu from India would concider Concervapedia as more neutral and less biased than Wikipedia? Or do you think anyone exept conservative american christian would see it that way? (okey, mayby some other christian conservatives around the world) The point being, that i find your hatered towards wikipedia bit unfound when this site really isnt any better. Oh, and personally i wouldnt find anything wrong on being taught by a professor named Mickey Mouse or anything else, as long as the things he is teaching arent "anti-intellectual" -- [[User:Timppeli|Timppeli]] 21:27, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:: I don't "hate" Wikipedia, but ideological movements do have consequences.  Read up on the Cultural Revolution in China if you doubt that.  Wikipedia is a distinct ideological movement that is very liberal, anti-Christian, anti-American and anti-intellectual.  Students are misled by its pervasive bias, which many Wikipedia editors pretend does not exist.  I don't care how many entries it has (most of which are silly), or how many visitors it has (many of whom would be better off consulting a real encyclopedia).  In fact, the greater its usage, the greater the need to expose what it really is.

:: I believe there is a brain drain from Wikipedia that is making it the Kool-Aid or MTV of the internet.  People are free to drinks as much Kool-Aid as they like, but many end up wanting something better.  Welcome to Conservapedia.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:37, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

== Donut ==

Could you see the edits to [[donut]] and [[Berliner Pfannkuchen]]? An appeal has been made to the panel. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 23:20, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

: I got a chuckle out of your dispute with Teresita.  Does a donut need to have a hole?  Personally, I don't think so, but who am I to say?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:57, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

==List suggestion==
[[User:Sterile]] made a minor complaint on the Commandments talk page that the term "family friendly" was too vague, as it did not specifically identify what it is that should not be posted on Conservapedia (such as sexually-related stuff), and I suggested a posted listing of things that is to be avoided.  Do you think such a list is needed?  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 10:51, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

: I doubt a list is necessary.  Do parents have a "list" when making these determinations?  We want simple, concise rules, shorter than the Ten Commandments themselves.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:56, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

==[[Robert E. Lee]]==
This article can now be added to the pile.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 17:23, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

: It's magnificent!!!!!  Truly a work of history.  I was telling my class of students about it this afternoon, and I'll add it to the front page tonight.  Very well done.  God bless you!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:29, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

::I do have a problem sometimes with minor spelling...which I've seen you correct.  I would call that teamwork!  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 17:30, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

I just added an "assessment" blurb at the bottom of the article...probably in time.  It might need more there, but that's just me.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 01:56, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

: It's a masterpiece.  It doesn't need anything more, though feel free to continue to add to it.  Thanks for such a brilliant work!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 02:08, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

One of the things you might like to teach in your classes is trivia about various subjects, and the additional pictures I posted for this article could result in a nice round of discussions.  If you'll notice on Lee in his uniform, he is always wearing the stars of a colonel in the Confederacy; the pic of Stonewall shows the added wreath of a general; Lee wouldn't over-do it, which is indicative of his humility, but on the flip-side, no one would dare question his authority.  This authority was extended to President Jefferson Davis, who was thrown off the battlefield by Lee during one of the Seven Days battles.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 13:30, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

== Proposed Block Policy ==

There has recently been some disagreement over blocks, so I have created a [[User:CPAdmin1/Proposed Block Policy|proposed block policy]]
Tell me what you think. --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 23:23, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

:Seems very popular. Between you and Benjamin we've gotten a lot of great organizational suggestions in the past couple of days. 

:What you suggested seems so close to what I've been doing (or 'thought' I was doing) that I wonder if you are a sockpuppet of me! :-)

==Sysop Pledge==

As my good deed of the day I am requesting that you place this template on your userpage. Participating sysops will earn my respect and gratitude. --[[User:BenjaminS|BenjaminS]] 23:53, 12 April 2007 (EDT)

{{Sysop Pledge}}

== Request Unprotection ==

Dear Andy,

We request unprotection of the following pages:

*[[User:RightWolf2]]
*[[User_Talk:RightWolf2]]

I also request de-sysop and mandatory blocking of users [[User:TK]] and [[User:Hojimachong]] for a period of three days as an administrative sanction for the original talk page baiting and harassment conduct that gave us cause to leave your site in the first place.  We will resume editing when you have instrumented the aforementioned administrative punishments to these two users.    Please do not allow teenagers and twenty year olds to hold you hostage or this site.  You need to send a message that harassment of mature editors won't be tolerated.  Thanks. [[User:RightWolf2|RightWolf2]] 16:36, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:Sorry, RightWolf2, pages of blocked users are locked to protect them against vandalism. Why would someone want access to the pages of a blocked user?  And FYI, thanks for the compliment, however I haven't seen 50 in a while now.  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 19:35, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::If you wish to make these requests,
::*Show some examples of "talk page baiting"
::*Prove that you are a "mature editor", as you imply you are.
::--<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 19:37, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

*'''Is this "user" still blocked?''' --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 20:16, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
::Checking the "User_Contributions" and Selecting the "block logs" at the top reveals this:
::18:51, 21 March 2007 TimSvendsen (Talk | contribs) unblocked [[User:RightWolf2]] (contribs) 
::::::[[User:Rob Pommer| Cracker]]<sub>[[User_talk:Rob_Pommer|talk]]</sub> 21:06, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

*Thanks, Rob.  Yes, I have been reminded that the user posted he was quitting, and requested that his pages be locked. I blocked him for other actions, and of course, in another case of "elite" actions, another Sysop (CPAdmin1/Tim) reversed my block in less than an hour, without discussion or notice.  More needless arguing brought on by the failure of people who claim to be "concerned" about users and their "rights" refusing to communicate, and instead taking unilateral action.  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 22:33, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:The general unpleasantness of this dialogue is virtually identical to what is typically seen on Wikipedia.  People take these discussions far too seriously.  [[User:RightWolf2|RightWolf2]] 03:50, 14 April 2007 (EDT)


== Andy Schalfly Website ==

The website has been disabled.  It will remain down as a token of good faith.  I apologize for any disruption in order to get my message accross.  I wanted you to understand a few things.  One of them being that unlike these trolls on your site, I am an expert in MediaWiki technology and computer science in general.  I am also a person with nearly limitless financial resources.  Forgiveness goes both ways, BTW.  Your turn ....

: I try to forgive people every day, and try not to hold grudges.  I have also told you who I am.  Who are you, and whom do you represent (i.e., your "limitless financial resources")?  Surely you would agree that question is fair.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:11, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

:I accept your apology.  I ask your forgiveness for my interactions here.   I hope we are both wiser from the experience.  The question is fair, but anonymous speakers have their rights too.  I liked your blackmail article, however, asking someone to comply with their perceptions of privacy laws does not quite fit the elements of proof.    At this point, we can part friends.   I wish you the very best of luck with your project.  Please setup a donations section and I will consider donating to your project.  Please consider fixing checkuser.  Thanks.  :-)

:: Fair enough.  I'm glad to end this dispute.  All the best to you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:17, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

==Userboxes==
What do you think about the use of [[Conservapedia talk:Userboxes|Userboxes]]? I know these are popular on Wikipedia and I just wanted your opinion. [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] <sup>[[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]]</sup> 19:43, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

: A person's user page is his castle here, so the boxes are fine with me as long as they remain confined to a person's own "turf", and as long as they are clean.  Do you have a view?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:11, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
:: You should add some to your page, Andy! FYI, I will be less active this week (midterms). --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 20:13, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Yep, I may take you up on that, Hoji. As to your midterms, maybe in a few months Conservapedia will have enough information to help college students prepare here.  However, even then most students may be not be learning what we have here!  Ha ha ha.  Lord willing we may grow into a full school ourselves one day.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:23, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::I personally like the userboxes. Some of them are quite humorous {{Userbox |border-c=#000 |border-s=1 |id-c=#fff |id-s=12 |id-fc=#000 |info-c=#039 |info-s=8 |info-fc=#fff |id=[[Image:Cows_at_E3.jpg‎ |45px]] |info=<center>This user thinks cows are tasty</center>}} 
::[[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] <sup>[[User_talk:Crocoite|Talk]]</sup> 20:31, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

I find this userbox to be offensive and propose it for deletion. --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 20:14, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
{{User warmhell}}

: I don't want to go down the road of censoring comments.  We block users who we observe cross the line, rather than try to read and filter everything that is said.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:23, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

Ok, that's fine. --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 20:32, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

Well-l-l...maybe I'm a stick-in-the-mud. But...well, I don't have a quarrel with a userbox that states a definite ideological position. But some of those userboxes are ''not'' clean. Body parts, for example. I know that a user's page is his castle, but the trouble is that the user page is actually the front elevation as you pass down the street, and if somebody's got a box that isn't clean on his page, that's a...what do you call it in law? I seem to recall the phrase [[public nuisance]].--[[User:TerryH|TerryH]]<sup>[[User talk:TerryH|Talk]]</sup> 20:36, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:If it falls under obscenity, then it is already covered elsewhere --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 20:49, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:I wouldn't mind being labelled with that user box warmhell. I find it quite amusing. --[[User:TrueGrit|TrueGrit]] 20:44, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
::How sad.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 21:43, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:::Thanks for pointing that out CPAdmin1.  --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 19:31, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== A line that nobody should cross ==

Mr Schlafly, I have been enjoying participation in this site of yours, and though I do not share your ideology, I respect what you are trying to achieve. However, I did take offence to the comment made by [[User:CoulterMan|CoulterMan]] which was on an edit of his to the page on Canada. He referred to a section I added as a "nazi rant". I am sure as an academic you understand that language of that nature is completely uncalled for, and unnecessary. Would you be so kind as to deal with that user, or have somebody deal with him. I can accept being called a great number of things, especially surrounding my religion or sexual orientation, but something that carries that sort of implication is crossing the line. --[[User:TrueGrit|TrueGrit]] 20:48, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

I blocked him for the edit on your user page --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 20:57, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

*Do we have a rule allowing blocks for that? --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 21:01, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::CoulterMan and I had it out because he was writing editorials on Canada, and I then went and sourced a huge chunk of information he copied to his user page. He accused me of vandalism for making this large portion of his user page a block quote, and adding a link to the original page on another Wiki. I suppose I could have acted more maturely, but under the circumstances, I have to accept part of the blame for fueling the fire. If I too should be blocked for that, then so be it. But, I don't care about what he wrote on my user page, it was the implication that I am a Nazi that offended me. --[[User:TrueGrit|TrueGrit]] 21:20, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:: The block was appropriate, but the duration (2 weeks) without warning seems excessive to me. However, I don't think Sysops should waste lots of time second-guessing each others' blocks.  Our time is better spent building the encyclopedia.  The procedure should be to suggest to the Sysop who did the blocking to shorten or lengthen it.  Almost always the Sysop who did the blocking reconsiders.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:23, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:: I retract my statement above.  That block was inappropriate.  A 30-second review of CoulterMan's edits show some valuable contributions.  It was a mistake not to take that into consideration.  He should have been warned for the "nazi" comment, which is used often even in polite discourse in the United States (e.g., Rush Limbaugh), rather than blocked.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:30, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::Did you see [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:TrueGrit&diff=prev&oldid=101782| this] edit which is clear vandalism? --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 22:30, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::: That's own user page.  One can't vandalize his own user page, any more than someone can vandalize his own home.  Here (unlike Wikipedia), a man's user page is his castle.  See [[Differences with Wikipedia]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:34, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
:::: AHA! Andy, I get it now! I think that you've been confusing the user talk page with the user page! Indeed, User page vandalism is a blockable offense at Wikipedia. Userpages are like "profiles" on MySpace or Facebook, and user talk pages are like email addresses. Just on the off-chance you might be confused :/. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 22:39, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::::That's TrueGrit's user page and it was vandalized by CoulterMan. And valuable edits don't always mean a good editor, think about Richard or BORF. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 22:55, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

*Hoji, Andy knows the difference.  He has posted that both pages are the User's "Castle".   The fact that we have the main "finger-wagger" Sysop here posting that someone should be banned for doing what they like with their own page, without pornography or cursing is troubling.  Maybe if everyone agreed to communicate with the whole group, more of these needless eruptions could be avoided? --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 22:50, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:: Hoji, your comment doesn't change my view.  Wikipedia acts like everything is government property, like its complex copyright license.  It thinks someone's own user page is like government property too!  Not us.  Users' pages are their castles. Thank God for principles of private property.

:: However, I think ColinR is now suggesting that CoulterMan vandalized someone else's user page.  That would be a serious infraction.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:05, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:: Ooops, my mistake.  I see that the above link was to the vandalizing of someone else's user page.  All my arguments now go in the direction opposite to my conclusion!!!! --[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:10, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::::Would you be opposed to the reblocking of [[User:CoulterMan|CoulterMan]] --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 23:21, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:::I'm still trying to argue against the locking of user talk pages, as they are ''not'' part of a users userspace, are not intended to be, and should not be locked; how else is someone supposed to contact [[User talk:Conservative|this user]]? It makes no sense. It's been locked for 11 days, with a summary of "AmesG pestering me". --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 23:07, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Good point, Hoji.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:10, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

*I think Hoji is confused.  No one's user page is ever locked, except by them.  I started locking the pages of users who had been blocked to head off vandalism, and socks using them to foment trouble.  Surely no one objects to that? --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 23:15, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: Hoji said "user talk pages", not "user pages".  And there are several user talk pages locked (yours included), which makes communication more difficult. --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 23:22, 13 April 2007 (EDT)


Colin, can you post the diffs? [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 23:22, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:TrueGrit&diff=prev&oldid=101782| Here] is the diff. --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 23:26, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:FYI [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User%3ACoulterMan&diff=90664&oldid=88972| Here] is the "vandalism" by [[User:TrueGrit| TrueGrit]] on [[User:CoulterMan|CoulterMan]]'s user page. It was formatting. IMO, if it's on a USER page it's sacrosanct, they don't want it formatted, that's up to them. [[User:Rob Pommer| Cracker]]<sub>[[User_talk:Rob_Pommer|talk]]</sub>


::*I agree with you Rob.  But since the postulation of the idea of a users page being his "Castle" was only agreed to/posted here by Andy within the past two weeks, one isn't "right" or fair, to demand someone be blocked for formatting. This is yet another matter of mis-communication, by a Sysop who has never wanted any communication, and most of his actions as a Sysop have been unilateral ones, reversing another's actions on his own, without asking or informing.  What the problem is here, as in many places, is people not communicating, directly with each other, and "reading into" a persons actions all kinds of evil and bad motives for them.  They are in essence tried and convicted without anyone ever asking for their reasoning in doing whatever they did.  We all need to insist on people being allowed to give everyone the benefit of their thinking before assuming the worst. Especially another member of the small number of Sysops. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 00:32, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

:::Are you refering to me? what did I do now? --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 00:35, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

You wanted to block someone for "vandalism". You posted you did block them. It was formatting!  Instead of messaging the perp, you bring it here, embarass people, and make them look bad!  We didn't even consider user/talk pages as a "castle" until a week or so ago. Maybe you need to stop throwing rocks at me, and others, until your own glass house is repaired.  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 02:02, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

:: The [[http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:TrueGrit&diff=prev&oldid=101782|edit which was blocked for]] wasn't formatting, TK; it was made on April 9th.  As far back as March 29th, [[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Aschlafly/Archive11|Andy called user's talk pages their 'castle']].  Technically speaking, that's immaterial since this wasn't a user's talk page, but a user page, but surely nobody is going to claim that a user talk page is _more_ protected than an actual user page? --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 02:41, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Well, why have some complained about blocking anyone, for anything not in the Commandments?  To me, User and User Talk pages should be treated the same.  It is the users castle, as Andy said. But I hardly think doing formatting changes is serious enough infringement to be blocked for without warning. And deleting stuff, as Ames, Myk have argued with me, still isn't reason enough because things can be reverted.  You guys can't have it both ways.  If you want warnings, before blocking, it has to apply equally to everyone. Was Coulterman given a warning, before being blocked or not?  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 03:28, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

:: IT WAS NOT A FORMATTING CHANGE.  Did you follow the [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User:TrueGrit&diff=prev&oldid=101782 link]?  --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 03:35, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

*Yes, and I clearly said, ''even if editing'', a warning should preceed a blocking. What he added wasn't obscene, or deleting anything.  While I consider it serious, I would not instantly block someone for it.  Obviously another Sysop had sense and removed the block. Do you argue with that common courtesy? Or are you calling for blood based on the user's idealogy?  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 03:40, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

::: I have no dog in this fight other than trying to get you to stop saying untrue things.  If you understand it wasn't just formatting, why do you keep saying things like "I hardly think doing formatting changes is serious enough infringement to be blocked for without warning" and "Tonight he blocked a user for ''formatting'' another users page,"?  The first step to dealing with differences of opinion is agreeing on what the facts are. --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 03:46, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

*Another step is reading what I said fullly.  Obviously the formatting comment was a mistep of mine, because I go on to say ''"even if something was deleted.....". '' Taken in context, and without you assuming bad faith to others, deletion would be more serious than what he added, and even then I think a warning more appropriate than blocking. I am happy Andy and MountainDew agreed. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 03:55, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Whatever, TK.  Are you going to correct the other places you've said things like "Tonight he blocked a user for ''formatting'' another users page,"? --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 04:03, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

*Are you really this spiteful a creature, Jtl? Why does this place attract mean spirits to it?  I was going by Cracker's statement, which is usually correct.  And I think an argument could be made that adding that headline was indeed, formatting.  It certainly was "vandalism" in a real sense. Now, please post some nasty/flip/snide remark, and have the last word. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 04:15, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: If it makes you feel better to think I'm spiteful, that's fine with me.  You misunderstood Cracker's statement: ''FYI Here is the "vandalism" by TrueGrit on CoulterMan's user page. It was formatting.''.  Read that carefully: he was linking to something ''TrueGrit'' did on ''CoulterMan'''s page, that CoulterMan considered vandalism.  ''That'' edit was formatting, but isn't the one that was banned over.  CoulterMan then edited TrueGrit's userpage, adding a large headline accusing TrueGrit of being a vandal.  ''That'' is the edit that was banned over.  I don't know how to say this that won't sound snide, and I'm sorry for that, but I really am trying to be helpful: you need to slow down and read what people say.  I can't count how many dust-ups have been caused by you misinterpreting or misunderstanding someone else's words. --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 04:21, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

The dust-ups come from mean spirited people like you. You keep ignoring what I actually said, and concentrating on formatting.  I also said, even it it had been DELETING, it would still merit a warning first.  Adding a headline is not heinous. Get over it. He isn't banned now, and was, unfairly, for about an hour. Just let it go. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 04:25, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

::::: Huh?  How am I concentrating on formatting?  Everything I've said has been about your words.  Here are some more of your words that come to mind -- these I think actually have some accuracy, although presumably not quite how you intended: "What the problem is here, as in many places, is people not communicating, directly with each other, and "reading into" a persons actions all kinds of evil and bad motives for them." --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 04:36, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

==Jimmy Carter==

Yeah, I've heard about the UFO claim. I actually have a book that lists interesting facts about the personal lives of all of the US presidents, and it discusses that. I actually grew up being told by my mother that Carter was one of the best presidents ever, and I didn't learn the truth until I started reading about history for myself. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 21:45, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

: I'm astonished I never knew that.  And I am a huge critic of the scientific embrace of "life in outer space."  See, e.g., Carl Sagan.  We need an entry on that liberal, if we don't have one yet.  In fact, this life in outer space stuff should be a "liberal falsehood" of the day.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:48, 13 April 2007 (EDT)
::Amen to that.  In fact I discovered last week when reading some of ''Hitler's Table Talk'', Hitler believed in extraterrestrial life on other planets.  I had no idea these whacked ideas went back to the 1940s and probably earlier.  I could find the quote again if needed or your interested.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 22:17, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Maybe this should be developed as an essay.  I'll start one know just to get it going.  I would like to post this on the front page as a liberal falsehood.  So far we have three:  Hitler, Carter and Carl Sagan.  I hope that grouping is not too inflammatory!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:27, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

As long as we make it clear that we're not actually comparing Carter to Hitler. I don't think that should be hard, though. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 22:29, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

::::But you are calling Hitler a "liberal"?  LOL.  BTW, I think you can add Ronald Reagan [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhUmCthFK0k] and Newt Gingrich [http://www.thespacereview.com/article/623/1] to the list of wacky Liberals who believe in aliens.  --[[User:BobD|BobD]] 04:34, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

:::RobS might have seen it, but I did read once, Hitler had written a letter to someone, where he noted that these "advanced societies" were as they were because they had kept their race "pure".  How whacked is that?  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 22:29, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

I have to admit that when I was in high school, I was an extraordinarily liberal person. I would even go online and slander conservatives and argue them. I worked at a library then and read a lot of magazines and books about politics, and I read both sides' arguments. Eventually, I saw the light and was won over. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 23:28, 13 April 2007 (EDT)


: MountainDew, I bet we've all gone through similar experiences.  We all went to high school, read the same books, learned from similar teachers, etc., etc.  It's a liberal culture.  I'm now convinced that at least half of what I learned in school was false.  I question everything that I use to think.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:26, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

:Another thing people don't know is the connection between [[racism]] and [[Eugenics]], and how eugenics led to forced sterilizations and (even) [[the Holocaust]]. 

:Liberals don't like to have it mentioned (it was censored from Wikipedia), but Eugenics also figures in [[radical Environmentalism]], the [[DDT ban]], and so on. I'll be writing about these things in the near future, although not 14 hours a day of course. My time may be severely limited after next week. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 23:39, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

:: Yep, I've done a lot of reading on those topics in the past few years.  You're quite right, although I can't confirm the radical environmentalism part of it.  The connection between that and eugenics is new to me.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:26, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

:::AmesG keeps asking about the Darwinism/Nazism connection, but I've been too busy.  ''Hitler's Table Talk'' is loaded with it.  Here's one, Conversation of 10th of October 1941 Midday:
::::"war is nothing but a struggle for the riches of nature. By virtue of an inherent law, these riches belong to him who conquers them....The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 00:53, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

::Here's the cite, ''Hitler's Table Talk'', Conversation of 14th of October 1941 Midday:
:::"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, '''when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours''', then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.
::I'll get complete cite with page number tomorrow.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 00:08, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
::Here's the Carter docs. [http://www.presidentialufo.com/carter_ufo_report.htm] [[User:RobS|RobS]] 00:19, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

:: Wow.  I hope this is legit, because I'm going to put it on the front page.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:26, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

*Even more amazing, people, to this day, insist Hitler was right-wing. Another left-wing smear. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 03:24, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Here's the full cite to the Hitler quote about life on other planets,
*''Hitler's Table Talk, 1941-44;'' Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens, Introduction by H. R. Trevor-Roper, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, London, 1973, 2nd ed., p. 60.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 15:57, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== User:CoulterMan ==

Can I reblock him now that you understand that he vandalized a different user's userpage? --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 00:56, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

: I wouldn't without first reviewing his overall edits and the context of his edit war.  I looked at his overall edits and he has contributed a lot to this site.  Also, blocks based on heated ideological disputes should only be long enough to cool off, such as one day.  It doesn't make sense to block a serious contributor 2 months for getting into a heated argument.

: You might check with MountainDew for a third opinion.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:05, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

*I thought Tim was one of those who have previously posted, that people should get a warning?  There wasn't any big damage done, and he was already blocked for an hour. I think all that has been posted on this page should surely satisfy even the most blood thirsty. If not, maybe CPAdmin1 can post a "stern" reprimand on his page. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 04:28, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

==Question==
sir, am i allowed to copy an article that i contributed to wikipedia?[[User:Bohdan|Bohdan]] 01:41, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

: Yes, you can always copy your '''own''' work.  If the copy includes edits by others, then it becomes necessary to credit the other editors, as done at the bottom of this entry [[Joseph McCarthy]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:59, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
Thank you


==Question==

Just wanted to know if you received my letter and if you wish to respond.  Thanks, PAL.

: No, I haven't received it.  Can you email it to me at my account at aol?  I did appreciate your entry on the [[Hepatitis B vaccine]] and how it increases the risk of MS.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 13:09, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

::Um, that was NOT my version. Sorry.--[[User:palmd001|PalMD]]<sup>[[User_talk:palmd001|talk]]</sup> 13:21, 14 April 2007 (EDT)


== Congratulation ==

Congratulations Andy Schlafy. 

This is a great idea.

--[[User:Joaquín Martínez|Joaquín Martínez]] 20:59, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

== Upload File Broken ==

I tried uploading several images to Conservapedia but it isn't working. [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 22:14, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

: Please keep trying.  We seem to have sporadic problems with uploading images.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:57, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

== Two Concerns - Conservative, and the Main Page ==

First things first, Andy - [[user:Conservative|that guy]] has once again crossed an editorial line.  He has submitted a page ([[macroevolution]]) to the panel, which is of course permitted.  He has then protected the page, which is also permitted.  However, he then removed everything with which he personally disagreed, on the page.  I thought that pages submitted to the panel were sent in their current state.  That's how it worked with [[Evolution]], and we all played by the rules.  Now, I want to make sure that [[user:Conservative|Conservative]] plays by the rules.  Will you please see to it?  Also, I would like a cite for the allegations on the main page, about how the "abortion lobby" is forcibly stalling stem cell research on more successful, non-embryonic lines.  In fact, I'd like a cite about how non-embryonic lines are more successful.  Thanks.-'''<font color="#007FFF">Ames</font><font color="#FF0000">G</font>'''<sub>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!]</sub> 22:32, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
::::You never showed me "the rule" AmesG. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 23:12, 14 April 2007 (EDT)conservative

:I would like to engage you in debate on the [[Adult stem cells]] issue.  However, in the meantime, I have submitted it to the Panel.  Please abstain from making substance-edits in the interim between now and their decision.-'''<font color="#007FFF">Ames</font><font color="#FF0000">G</font>'''<sub>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!]</sub> 23:04, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

:Ames, maybe medication would help? I am truly concerned.  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 23:14, 14 April 2007 (EDT)
::TK, personal remarks are not appreciated, and have gotten me banned in the past.  Why are you still here?-'''<font color="#007FFF">Ames</font><font color="#FF0000">G</font>'''<sub>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!]</sub> 10:42, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Ames, joking aside, I am concerned that you persist with such strongly one-sided, preconceived views.  We're not here to make you feel better about your predetermined views.  That's not our goal.  Expect to learn things on this site that will challenge your views.  Please be more open-minded in the future.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:25, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Andy, joking aside, I am concerned that you persist with such strongly one-sided, preconceived views that you fail to back up with any material at all.  Such a failure to engage in basic encyclopedic editing is a failure of this site, and of your own ideology.  The only thing I have learned thus far on this site is that, when challenged, creationists are not strong enough to step up to the plate and debate their ideas - rather, they run and hide with whatever powers they have at their disposal (blocks, et al).  I am deeply saddened by this - I had hoped to learn something of your viewpoints, but instead, I have only learned of their weakness.-'''<font color="#007FFF">Ames</font><font color="#FF0000">G</font>'''<sub>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!]</sub> 10:42, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:Where did Andy go? He seems to have gone quiet all of a sudden (again). It never ceases to amaze me how he can behave in such a hypocritical manner. He says one thing and does just the opposite. I particularly like: "We're not here to make you feel better about your predetermined views". Does the man have absolutely no sense of irony? --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 19:37, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:: Horace, it is Sunday and not to appear self-righteous, but it doesn't hurt to spend a little time in prayer.  It's healthy, too.  But I'm back online now.

:: I have an open mind about everything and my views change a little every day I'm on this site.  I'm serious.  Ames, and perhaps yourself, seem determined to reinforce your predetermined views.  That's not going to happen from this site.  This site is to challenge all of us, you and Ames also, about what we were taught and what we think.  Try it.  You'll thank others here if you do.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:40, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Do you know what would demonstrate your open mind more than anything?  Why don't you make me a sysop?  I'm serious.  --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 20:46, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: Oop... He's gone again.  --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 22:23, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Andy, I maintain an open mind.  I used to be an atheist, actually, but I consider myself more agnostic, now.  That's a pretty big change.  The fact is, though, that mired in the poor reasoning of most of the "controversial" articles as I am, I have yet to see *anything* to change my mind.  Example - the [[evolution]] page.  No-one who looks beyond the surface (but I guess literalism doesn't encourage that) could fail to see the gaping errors in your anti-evolution attacks.-'''<font color="#007FFF">Ames</font><font color="#FF0000">G</font>'''<sub>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!]</sub> 23:56, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== Site Issue ==

The site works fine for me, but I've reported problems by others to the hosting company and it is already processing this trouble ticket.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:54, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Thank you I've been having some strange stuff going on-lately when I've been trying to edit it logs me out instead. [[User:Sulgran|Sulgran]] 00:22, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Problem fixed.  The host moved a partition.  Thanks for your patience.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:26, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Whatever was done also seemed to have fixed my problem uploading pictures that I've had for a very long time. [[User:Sulgran|Sulgran]] 00:50, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

== Sysop material ==

Dear Andy,

Please read this eloquent pro-life material: http://prolifeprologic.townhall.com/  It was written by the person who has the discussion page of: [[User talk:Runeglia]].  I am guessing he is a conservative pro-lifer soon to be editor of Conservapedia.  You might consider asking him if he wants to be a Sysop and watch his edits. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 00:37, 15 April 2007 (EDT)conservative

==Thanks==

That's what I get for 4 years of chess.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 00:55, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:Yeah, btw, I'm still working on it, in case you wanna feature it or something.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 01:03, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:: A feature on chess is a great idea!  I'll add that to my list for this week, after you've had some more time to improve it.  The [[Titanic]] is the feature for tomorrow.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:08, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== Cities and sizes ==

Andy, I would like to know how big a city needs to be to warrant an entry. I would suggest the city needs to have either:
*A population of 250,000 in the city proper/metro. area
*Significant historical importance ([[Persepolis]], [[Carthage]], etc.)
Tell me what you think. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 01:00, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Having grown up in a small town, I'd hate to see population as the criterion.  Let's let everything in that meets our [[rules]] and we can always trim back later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:02, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:Thanks, Andy and Conservative :P --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 01:08, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== question ==

How do you feel about edit such as this: http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Adultery&diff=108019&oldid=100436   How do you want situations like this handled? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:40, 15 April 2007 (EDT)conservative
::Forget I even asked.  I saw his next edit. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 01:42, 15 April 2007 (EDT)conservative
:::Right.  But the edit you questioned violates our [[rules]] that entries be verifiable, and you were right to change it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:43, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:Should i delete fornication and sodomy? <font color="#F90404">Geo.</font>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Geo.plrd Talk] 01:54, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:: That's a great idea, Geo!  Thanks for enforcing our [[rules]].--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:55, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::I deleted Fornication. Should I also delete Sodomy? <font color="#F90404">Geo.</font>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Geo.plrd Talk] 02:31, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::::According to commandment 3, you should delete [[Sodomy]] and [[Homosexuality]]. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 03:07, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== Protected deleted pages ==

Andy, I found a way to make sure that the articles in "Category:Protected deleted pages" don't show up when you click "random page";all of the pages in that category should redirect to a single page, with the current <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:Deletedpage|Deletedpage]]<nowiki>}}</nowiki> on it; redirects do not show up when "random page" is clicked on. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 03:10, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Wow, that's fantastic, Hoji!  Thanks!!!  I'll change over some of the pages now to redirects.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 07:10, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== Mohammad ==

You might want to take a look at this, decide policy. [[http://www.conservapedia.com/Image_talk:Mahommed.jpg]]

: Deleted that particular image because the source of file not disclosed; copyright issues; adds nothing to the article about Mohammed.  --[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 07:54, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:: Reuploaded as [Image:Maome.jpg], author, copyright, and source disclosed. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 15:59, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== Triple J ==

: By the way, TK, I was just on Stirling Addison's show on Australia radio: "Restoring the Balance" [http://abc.net.au/triplej/restoringthebalance] --[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 07:54, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::I will pray for a whole night's sleep for you! --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 08:00, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Thanks for that!  I need it indeed!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:01, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::The audio for Sunday's show there isn't up on the site yet, but I assume it will be soon. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 08:03, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Unfortunately, there was some static on the line when I spoke due to a storm here. I need to get Skype to do these interviews over the internet, which might result in clearer transmission.  :-( --[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:06, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::Arrrgh!  I knew I'd forget to listen (I was watching CSI with my better half).  Oh well, at least they <s>(will)</s> have it on the web-site.  How did it go?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 08:56, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::::It is now on-line.  Try http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/restoringthebalance/mod_real/restoring.ram (Real player) or http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/restoringthebalance/mod_windows/restoring.asx (Windows player), or go to http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/restoringthebalance/ and click either "REAL" or "WINDOWS" under "Listen : stream last program" in the left column.  I'll shortly post how far into the program Andy comes on.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:02, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::::: It starts at time mark 34:33 and goes to 41:00.  Note that the program is a ''pretend'' right-wing (conservative) program on a radio station that is actually very left-wing (liberal).  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:05, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::::: NOTE:  The direct links above will only be valid for one week.  The indirect link will probably be valid for about three weeks.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:20, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: Thanks much, Philip.  I knew it was satire and expected the worst.  But any time there is publicity, there is always a good chance of exposing someone to conservative ideas they have never heard before.  Conservative ideas are censored in schools, mainstream media and Wikipedia.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 10:53, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

==Sysop Impersonator==
Got a guy who keeps trying to make sysop similar names. Can you IP ban him?--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 08:00, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Yes, let me take a look now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:01, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::I don't think it took. He may have a static IP.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 08:11, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: It's fairly easy to block the entire group of IP addresses.  It's easier for us to block than it is for him to establish a new account.  It's his loss because these blocks are infinite.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:14, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::::He's just replacing links with links to a ipod scam site or something of that nature. Its broken anyway, so jokes on him.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 08:17, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: His last attempt, which was easily blocked, revealed his ISP location, so now we can file a complaint.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:19, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::Mkay, sounds good to me. I'm taking a nap, I've been up all night, haha. Talk to you later Andy.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 08:20, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Thanks much.  The new user who just registered is legitimate, by the way.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 08:26, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::what exactly is his real ip?--[[User:Fg|Fg]] 08:58, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::As an experienced programmer/analyst, I recommend against discussing security strategy in public like this. How about using private email? Or instant messaging? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 09:20, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

what do you mean by his last attempt was it the time he impersonated jimbowales?--[[User:Fg|Fg]] 09:28, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== RFA ==

I suggest that a page, under the title of <nowiki>[[Conservapedia:Requests for adminship]]</nowiki> be created to provide a centralized location for users to requests varying levels of administrator permissions. If you don't object, I'll go ahead with this. Thanks! --[[User:Hacker|Hacker]]<sup><code>([[User talk:Hacker|Write some code]])</code></sup> 09:31, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:I beleive there is already such a page, Hacker. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 09:37, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::You mean [[Talk:Admin]]? First of all, it's in the wrong namespace. Secondly, it's defunct. --[[User:Hacker|Hacker]]<sup><code>([[User talk:Hacker|Write some code]])</code></sup> 09:50, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::Gee, I wonder if it was always defunct and in the "wrong" namespace, or someone made it so?  On edge this morning, Hacker? I just remembered seeing it, and people posting there.  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 09:52, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::No one has ''touched'' [[Talk:Admin]] since… March 18 ( see [http://conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Admin&action=history here]). That seems to make it defunct. And the article talk namespace is the wrong place for pages of this description. --[[User:Hacker|Hacker]]<sup><code>([[User talk:Hacker|Write some code]])</code></sup> 13:42, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

*I am trying to educate myself, so please forgive me for asking, but why is it in "the wrong place" and who decides? --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 16:21, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::Which pages should go where is dictated at the code level. Pages about the administration of a MediaWiki wiki go in the Project: (Here Conservapedia:) namespace, and discussions about articles go in the article talk (Talk:) namespace. --[[User:Hacker|Hacker]]<sup><code>([[User talk:Hacker|Write some code]])</code></sup> 22:22, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::So the page you say is defunct is in talk, not right?  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 00:40, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

Hey, problem solved. I've moved the [[Talk:Admin]] page to <nowiki>[[Conservapedia:Requests for adminship]]</nowiki>, leaving the redirect, thus no red links and it's in the correct namespace now. If there's a problem with this, I can always move it back, though I don't know why anyone would want to do that. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 00:45, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

:Yeah, can you delete [[Talk:Admin]]? No cross-namespace redirects shoud exist. --[[User:Hacker|Hacker]]<sup><code>([[User talk:Hacker|Write some code]])</code></sup> 13:54, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

== "what links here" on the front page is keeping people away from Conservapedia ==

Dear Mr. Schafly,

Here is a email I just got from a very conservative organization:

"It will be interesting to see how this pans out.  i can imagine the 
libs will attack this 24/7.  not only that, i wouldn't want my children to 
see this info.  The "what links here" page is rated x as it is & is a link 
right on the front page.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Special:Whatlinkshere/Main_Page  "


Can we get the "what links here" link off the front page?   It is discouraging people to visit and edit our website.

[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:19, 15 April 2007 (EDT)conservative
:That's being addressed [http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Aschlafly#Protected_deleted_pages here]. If all of those pages are redirects, then they will not link to the main page. I'll go clean it up. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 16:25, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Thanks much, Hoji.  I fix nearly a half-dozen starting from the bottom of the list.  With your prior insight, that should also take those pages out of the "Random Page" selection also!  It's a double win!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:35, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

==User name==

I think I would like to change my user name. I've been called out by several members and accused of being a liberal troll on a few blogs because it's supposedly not serious enough. If I change it, could I have the new name sysopped? [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 16:23, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Sure.  I'll Sysop you immediately.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:27, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::Registration is closed right now. I'll have to do it later. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 16:33, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Ah, sorry.  It usually is closed Sundays, and I don't know how to open it.  No big deal, and I don't have any objection to your user name, by the way.  But others have changed theirs (including Sysops) so please feel free.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:37, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

'crats can change usernames, with everything intact. --[[User:Hacker|Hacker]]<sup><code>([[User talk:Hacker|Write some code]])</code></sup> 19:12, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== Conservative organization also found misspelled word on the front page ==

Here is a second email from the same conservative organization:

"btw, it's "Trustworthy", not "Trusworthy" - main page, top-left"

[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:24, 15 April 2007 (EDT)conservative

: I can't find this.  Can you?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:41, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Yes. The top left corner of every page, under the logo, it says "The Trusworhty Encyclopedia." [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 16:42, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Oh, I see.  That's embarrassing.  I use the old skin so I don't usually see that, except when I'm logged out.  I can't believe I didn't notice that.  Our webmaster will need to fix it, I suppose.  I'll send him an email now.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:46, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: MountainDew, I just realized that I can create a new account for you manually if you want this today.  You can email your new id and password at my aol account (same user name for me).--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:48, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Thanks. I did that. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 16:52, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: You're all set.  I Sysop'd your new id. and de-Sysop'd MountainDew.  You have a huge following here so you might want to let people know your new name.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:59, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== High Quality Conservapedia Logo ==

Hi Andrew,
I am working on a high quality Conservapedia logo:<br/>
[[Image:Conservapedia_Logo.png|thumb|200px]]<br/>
I have an SVG version, but for some reason it won't upload correctly.<br/>
Do you have any suggestions?<br/>
[[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 16:54, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Wow, that's nice!  The flag is centered better too!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:38, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:I like it. The font is more contemporary, and there isn't a red border around the flag. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 16:39, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::: ColinR, is this improved version from you?  Conservapedia is a nonprofit, educational project and could you confirm that turn over all rights to your improvements in this designed logo to this project, even if for any reason there is a falling out with you in the future?  Hate to make it sound that way but let's cover all our bases here.  Thanks and God bless you.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:53, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::I made it but I wish to keep the rights on the picture. [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 16:56, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::By the way, Andy, I reuploaded the Muhammad (PBUH) image as [Image:Maome.jpg], with copyright data, author, and sources disclosed. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 16:39, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Thanks much Hoji but I still need to think about this further.  Maybe all Sysops should consider and establish a policy about images of Muhammad.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 16:53, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::: IMHO, we can try to respect Muslims, but showing images of Muhammad is akin to following their Shari'a rules. As a historical figure, Muhammad existed; there isn't a dispute over this. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 16:55, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::::I'm with Hoji on this one. We live in America, where we have religious freedom. That means no religion's laws are enforced upon us. I understand that Islam has a law that says no images of Muhammad can be made, but we do not have this law, and it is not forced upon us.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 16:57, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Agreed. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 16:59, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Well, you make good points, but the image is not authentic.  Would an encyclopedia contain fictional images like this?  I'm skeptical.  I don't think we even have a painting of Jesus!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:04, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:: By the definition you imply you are using, then ''all'' paintings are "fictional". Could we include it in the article, and have the caption read "An artist's depiction of Muhammad"? --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 17:07, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: But the artist presumably never saw Muhammad, and probably wasn't even Muslim!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:14, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::: Al-Biruni? You've got to be kidding! He is one of the most famous Islamic scholars ''ever''! And of course he didn't see Muhammad; nobody who did painted a picture, and Biruni lived in the 10th and 11th centuries AD. But that doesn't change the fact that Muhammad himself ''was'' a historical figure, ''existed'' as a person, and Al-Biruni used descriptions in approved ''hadith'' to compose this image. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 17:19, 15 April 2007 (EDT) 

::::: OK, I'm learning here.  What's going on, then.  Some Muslims oppose depictions of Muhammad but others allow it?  The same is true for Jewish people with respect to depictions of people, I do know that.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:22, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::::: The image is from a book entitled''Ta'rikh al-Hind'' ("Chronicles of India"), which Al-Biruni compiled. He included this image (which is historically Uzbek or Tajik) because he had found it somewhere else; This makes it the oldest known image which depicts Muhammad. And he did not ''create'' the image, which is the '''big''' no-no; he collected it from elsewhere. It would be hard to find sources to back these claims up, but I'd look for them if you requested. I have given you the name of the book, though, and hope you learned something! Did you know that Biruni also mathematician, physicist, philosopher, and astronomer? He proved that irrational numbers existed! --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 19:02, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: OK, so the plot thinks further.  Al-Biruni didn't draw it after all.  Most likely a Muslim did not draw it, so why would we cite it as authoritative?  We wouldn't be citing Buddhist interpretations of the Bible, would we?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:07, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::::: A Muslim most likely ''did'' draw it; it was probably Uzbek or Tajik, and in the century before Al-Biruni, these areas were under complete and utter Muslim control (The Abbasid Caliphate). And comparing this to a Buddhist depiction of the Bible is a bit extreme; Buddhists were a ways away from Christian influence, though the artist of the Maome image was probably a Muslim, or under heavy Muslim influence. I have another image if you don't like the Maome one. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 19:15, 15 April 2007 (EDT) 

:::::: I don't know why you say a Muslim drew it.  Apparently such depictions are against Islam.  With the halos, the drawing looks distinctly Christian.  The bottom line is that is not authentic, and it would be misleading to include it an entry on Muhammad.  No encyclopedia would include it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 19:19, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::::: Actually, Shi'a Islam does not prohibit images of Muhammad. I'll go find another, more authoritative image. As a historical figure, Muhammad existed, and a picture of him should definitely exist here. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 19:24, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::::::FYI, ''Bibliotheque nationale de France'' has verified it [http://expositions.bnf.fr/livrarab/grands/0_01.htm here] as authentically Al-Biruni. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 19:34, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
<br/>
Here is a small version that could work as the logo:<br/>
[[Image:Conservapedia_Logo_sm.png]]<br/>
[[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 17:05, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Ribbix, I greatly appreciate your effort and your release, but I am more than a little skeptical about your commitment to this project.  Please accept my apologies if I'm wrong, but I've reviewed your edits and they include troubling statements like this, "I am a very conservative when it comes to editing Conservapedia."  [[User:Ribbix]].  The files you've edited also have another characteristic:  they have been "page viewed" an inordinate number of times.  Curious, isn't that?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 17:11, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::I understand why you would be skeptical. In all honesty I am a libertarian and some might call me conservative while others call me liberal. I am struck between the quality of some of these pages. Some are very high quality and cite valid sources, while others are poorly written and do not cite sources at all. I do not know what to do. I am afraid if I edit some pages, people will revert them or block me because they do not share my viewpoint. I think it would be beneficial to state what issues Conservapedia stands by and which issues it does not. Conservative is a very broad term and there are different types of conservatism. My talk page isn't supposed to be an article, and so I don't think you should judge me by what I have on it. I am new to this whole Conservapedia thing. [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 17:35, 15 April 2007 (EDT)


If you please, the logo on the main page needs to be corrected now.  A user spotted the word "trustworthy" was misspelled.  [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 17:58, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Thanks, Karajou.  I've already let our webmaster know, but I don't think he's around right now.  I imagine most of us use an old or custom skin so we don't see that logo often.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:02, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== I learned about your mom in English class ==

I just wanted to let you know. [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 17:57, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Well, thank you.  I suppose.  English class???  My mom hasn't written any novels. I'm curious what the context was.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 18:05, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:: Ribbix, is the end of the line for your parody here?  I'm still awaiting your explanation of how you learned about my mom in English class.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:37, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Do you find it irritating when people don't have the courtesy to respond to you?  --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 20:41, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: You got me there.  Touche.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 20:46, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::::: Well, it would have been more effective if you hadn't been replying to my post above at the time I was writing it.  Touche yourself.  --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 20:51, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:Is your mom Phyllis Schlafly? Sorry, I didn't see your previous messages until now. [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 21:21, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
(needless Wikipedia link removed)

:: Ribbix, I think you're a parody.  Yes, that's my mom and, for the third time, please answer my question.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:26, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::: We were reading a book and it referenced the ERA and so we watched this film about the 80s in general and it talked about how your mom played a major role in the Anti-ERA movement. [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 21:36, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: Really?  Reading about ERA in '''English''' class???  The '''80s''' in general???--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:42, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: I just knew your name sounded familiar and then I remembered that we learned about her in school. [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 21:38, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: Ah, you are starting to contradict yourself.  It's not English class anymore, it's "in school".  Ribbix, I've looked at your edits and I've looked at the inordinate page views on your edits.  I'm convinced you're a parody.  Your account will be blocked at 10 pm ET tonight.  Wikipedia will welcome your edits.  Feel free to apologize here before you're blocked.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:42, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::::As long as the English class was in school, there is no contradiction in claiming both "in English class" and "in school".  It's like saying "in Iowa" and "in America"; they could both be true without contradiction.  Secondly (and this is a weaker point because you would know more about the American situation than me), when I was in school (decades ago in Australia), our English classes at times amounted more to "social studies" than the English language.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 02:52, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
::: I think you are confused, but I seriously learned about your mom in English class. I don't want to explain it any better because I will probably just make it more confusing. I do not know what you mean by a parody but it seems like I am not welcome here, so I will stop editing. [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 21:48, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::: Furthermore, if you think Wikipedia is too biased, why don't you edit it to make it unbiased? [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 21:49, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Ribbix, that's not an apology.  I repeat:  I've read your edits and I've reviewed the traffic.  Wikipedia will welcome you.  It distorts and erases my edits.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:50, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::: Goodbye cruel conservative world! I hope the libs will be more kind to me. [[User:Ribbix|Ribbix]] 22:05, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::::Great job, Andy. Another good, friendly editor gone. You're doing an excellent job of creating hostility, you know, thus further separating Conservapedia from Wikipedia. Congratulations! --[[User:Hacker|Hacker]]<sup><code>([[User talk:Hacker|Write some code]])</code></sup> 22:21, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

Our loss is Wikipedia's gain! :-) --[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:25, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:Of all people, I would think you wouldn't want to encourage WP's gain. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 22:26, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== Redirect to Conservapedia ==

(discussion continued on [[Conservapedia:Sysops]] page).

== The 90/10 rule ==

I have posted at [[Conservapedia talk:Commandments]] on the 90/10 rule.  I would be interested in your views.  --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 19:55, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

==ACLU essay==

I think it would be a good idea for you to link your essay on the Boy Scouts and the ACLU to the ACLU page. I think I've mentioned this before, but I think it would be cool to incorporate individual essays more into the site. I remember you saying that you wanted Conservapedia to be a site for individual intellectual thought. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 22:17, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Excellent idea, Dan!  Thanks.  Go ahead if you have a specific way to do this in mind.  If not, then I'll do it a little later.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:18, 15 April 2007 (EDT)


== Front page ideas ==

It would be good to have more collaboration and assistance on redoing the front page every night.  We could set up a page for ideas.  Here's what I have in mind for tonight:

Breaking News:  Wolfowitz and neoconservatives

Entry of the Day:  change to Liberal Falsehood of the Day this time and describe the liberal support of UFOs and ETs, with links to Jimmy Carter and Carl Sagan and a picture of a spaceship.

On this Day: It's pretty thin for April 16, but Lenin returning to Russia might be best.

Ideas?--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:25, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:Its totally my birthday on the 16th...Thats news right?--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 22:28, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:: Ha ha.  I like that, Elamdri.  Happy birthday, dude!--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 22:53, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:::Ty, my big 2-0.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 23:00, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

April 19th is the anniversary of the [[Oklahoma City Bombing]].  I've started an article there.  Any particular areas which should be fleshed out? --[[User:Jtl|Jtl]] 00:33, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

That's an important one. On Wednesday, if we got the Paul Revere article up to snuff, we could do that, because April 18 was the Midnight Ride of Paul Revere. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 02:01, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

::OH thanks guys, my 20th birthday isn't important enough for the Front Page eh? I SEE HOW IT IS!  ;)
--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 02:02, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

== Blocked Horace for harrrassing me at my discussion page and 90/10 rule ==

Blocked Horace for harrrassing me at my discussion page and 90/10 rule.  Please see that the blocking is not overruled as he is a 90/10 flagrant abuser who whines but does not contribute. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 22:47, 15 April 2007 (EDT)conservative

Mr. Aschlafly, something '''needs''' to be done about this. A: Horace was not harassing Conservative, he only made one post on his talk page; B: [[User:Murray|Murray]] posted Horace's editing stats on Conservative's talk page, which showed that Horace is not in violation of the 90/10 rule; C: Conservative has removed both Horace's and Murray's edits to his talk page, something which he is notorious for, yet should not be done, as this creates problems for anyone trying to observe what happened, as they have to browse through page history. A user's talk page is not his to do as he sees fit, instead it is a means of communication between the user and the rest of the community. I understand you seem to think Conservative is a good editor, and while I personally (and a large portion of the community, it seems) feel otherwise, this is beyond personal opinion. This is about the well-being of Conservapedia. His actions do '''nothing''' to help this site. There was no reason to block Horace, he needs to be unblocked ASAP. Thank you. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 23:34, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

If this is true, then he should be unblocked --[[User:CPAdmin1|CPAdmin1]] 23:48, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

:Obviously I concur in the above.  I also have to add that there is one other editor who certainly dips below the "90/10" rule - TK :-P -'''<font color="#007FFF">Ames</font><font color="#FF0000">G</font>'''<sub>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!]</sub> 23:53, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::*I agree Andy should look into it.  But I also observe edits were made to the "vote" about the block rule after people had posted which made their comments seem crazy.  So, it isn't exactly something not done often.  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 00:37, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

Harassament isn't fun, or funny. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 00:47, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

I g2g for the night man... '''have fun arguing with Conservative, he's being a bit odd tonight. Then again, when isn't he?''' --Hojimachongtalk 00:02, 16 April 2007 (EDT) 
'''Peace Hoji... :-P You'll be missed. I should be studying so I can be a fancy lawyer someday, and not fail my exams & life in general. Hoji, one important reminder - the law is always on our side. Look it up; it's good stuff'''.-AmesGyo! 00:04, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:Not ashamed of those at all, TK. I stand by them. --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 01:15, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

*Sad. --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 02:21, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

==Kenneth Wald==

I'm currently working on an article for him, since I'm reading one of his books for a research paper, and In it, I saw he has a complete list of supreme court cases that had a significant affect on the distinction on church and state, as well as their subject and their outcome (Whether or not they favored seperation or accomidation.) Would you like me to post a copy?--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 23:07, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

: Sure, assuming it's your work.  Would this be in the format "Essay:_______"?  Sounds like it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 23:12, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

::Might, As I said, I'm working on a research paper right now "Evangelical Christianity and Party Identification in the United States." So I dunno.--[[User:Elamdri|Elamdri]] 23:25, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

== help with your life in outer space article ==

Please read this: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2196  I would also recommend this: http://www.privilegedplanet.com/  [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 23:58, 15 April 2007 (EDT)conservative

: Please add material as you think best, Conservative.  I want this to go on the front page tonight.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 00:03, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

== Exotheology ==

Aschlafly, did you not read the Times article you cited? It explicitly states that exotheology is the theology of outer space. Nothing to do with the science of extraterrestrial life. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 01:17, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

: What's the difference?  You're splitting hairs.  I'll do another search in the Time archives to see how the term is used, but it's synonymous with belief in ETs.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:20, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

::Dude, this is supposed to be an _encyclopedia_, remember?  If a real encycloped mixed up, say, Greece and Rome, I'd imagine you'd be very unimpressed by their quality-control.  --[[User:BobD|BobD]] 01:21, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

::What's the difference? Everything. I'm not splitting hairs. Exotheology is the investigation of how things in space can affect religion. '''NOT''' belief in ET life. Have you even read the sources you cite? <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 01:23, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

::: I asked you for another term.  Give me a suitable replacement and I'll use it.  But censorship is not an option.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:24, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
::::I did. I said what exotheology was. "The investigation of how things in space can affect religion." aka the theology of outer space. And I asked if you read the sources you site. Did you? <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 01:29, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

::: Colin, I did read the sources.  You're going to lose your Sysop privileges if you continue to make liberal edits to this entry.  You did not suggest a replacement term, but instead you suggested a diluted definition.  Life doesn't exist in outer space and that's the point.  It was (and is) liberal to pretend it does.  Give me another term for the belief that life exists in outer space and I'll use it.  But don't interfere with the facts and theme of this entry.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:34, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:::: It's a bit dangerous to work under the mindset that the belief ''cannot'' be true, and edit from that point of view. That's why CP isn't as concise and clean as it should be. Having said that, there is no issue regarding the edit war. It can be a pseudoscience, or a pseudoreligion, or a belief (a la Scientology). --<font color="#0000CC" face="Comic Sans MS">[[User:Hojimachong|'''Hojimachong''']]</font><sup><font color="00FFAA">[[User_Talk:Hojimachong|talk]]</font></sup> 01:36, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
::::I'm not making "liberal" edits. My fact tag was a request for actual cited information, something the commandments require. I've read all the sources you cite, and none of them support what you're claiming. And how do you know life doesn't exist in outer space? Please show me where to find this information! <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 01:38, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

Are you seriously going to step all over the Commandments? Others on here work hard to ensure what they post follows the commandments, yet you have repeatedly posted uncited and nonfactual information (speculation and opinion at best in some cases) on the Exotheology page. Moreover, you insist on writing an entry that doesn't even relate to the actual title. <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 01:38, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

:::: Colin, the entry is completely factual.  Most scientists now reject the existence of life in outer space.  You haven't suggested a replacement term despite my repeated requests.  I'm not going to waste more time on this, as it is very late here.  No liberal edits of this factual entry will be allowed simply to appease a liberal point-of-view.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:41, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:::::I'm sorry, apparently me giving a definition multiple times doesn't cut it. And please show me where multiple scientists reject the existence of life in outer space. I've yet to meet one at Vandy. And again, where is this proof that there is no life in outer space? <font color="FFD700">[[User:ColinR|ColinR]]</font><sup><font color="000000">[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</font></sup> 01:43, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

::: It's in the cited Time magazine article.  I've adjusted the definition to appease you but I'm not going to dilute the point.  The term used doesn't matter to me but the entry is not going to be made more liberal.  As I said, it's late here and I'm going to sign off soon.  Feel free to debate on the talk page but do not change this entry further.  Write your own entries if you like.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 01:46, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

:::::''Most scientists now reject the existence of life in outer space.''.
:::::I guess these are the same 'most scientists' who reject Evolution? That's why NASA keeps sending probes to places like Mars and Europa in hopes of finding a few microbes, I guess. 
:::::Hm... was Robert A. Heinlein a 'liberal'? I don't think he would have agreed with your description. Not '''every''' Conservative treats the Old Testament as a science text, you know. --[[User:BobD|BobD]] 01:46, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

:::::: I actually posted this allready to the discussion of the article related, but as i see there is discussion about the subject in here too, ill do it again: The article now says, "Today most scientists doubt the existence of life in outer space, yet they support continuing to spend money on searching for it." And the source where its allegedly taken lists few scientists who dont belieave and then states "But such pessimism represents a minority view among scientists, at least those with their eyes on the stars." Mayby something worth fixing? [[User:Timppeli|Timppeli]] 04:29, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

==How Wikipedians view Conservapedia==

Andy, I conducted an impromptu discussion, over the weekend, on the #wikipedia [[IRC]] channel and posted the edited transcript at [[How do Wikipedians see Conservapedia?]]. The tone of the conversation was largely constructive. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 08:08, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

: Interesting.  I suspect that our growth has been greater than Wikipedia's at a comparable time.  I'm confident the quality in our entries has been better also.

: Wikipedia is really an anti-intellectual movement, akin to the Cultural Revolution, and I think the smart editors have or will leave it.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 15:36, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

::I would call it an "anti-elitist" movement, a meritocracy in [[denial]]. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 21:27, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

== Petition to restore move functionality to normal users ==

I've started this at [[User:Hacker/Petition to restore move functionality to normal users]]. I'm terribly annoyed by my inablity to move pages, and I'm sure many others are as well. --[[User:Hacker|Hacker]]<sup><code>([[User talk:Hacker|Write some code]])</code></sup> 13:57, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

: No, moves are too disruptive.  Maybe one day that feature will return to all users, but not yet.  Thanks anyway.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:04, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

In the meantime, Hacker, if you're moving to correct mispellings, just blank & redirect to the correct spelling.  That's what I do.-'''<font color="#007FFF">Ames</font><font color="#FF0000">G</font>'''<sub>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!]</sub> 21:06, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:The problem with that approach is that it leaves the history at the old address.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 22:25, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

*Oh dear!  --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 22:40, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

== exotheology article ==

I am working on a project today and will not be of much help in regards to you getting the article up tonight.  However, here are two additional sources for you if you want to build up the article today:

http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/ufo.htm

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/1791/astronomer-links-ufos-to-occultism

[[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 15:49, 16 April 2007 (EDT)conservative

== Pointers ==

I started an article on Congressman [[C. Michael Thompson]]. I am hoping to bring it to featured and would like (if it isn't to much of a bother) some advice on what I can do to make it better. <font color="#F90404">Geo.</font>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Geo.plrd Talk] 20:30, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

: Well, it seems to say he was born in 1999.  That doesn't sound right....--[[User:BobD|BobD]] 20:32, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

: Looks great, Geo.  I made some very minor formatting-type improvements.--[[User:Aschlafly|Aschlafly]] 21:03, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

==[[AFD Iraq body Count Project]]==
Andy, would review the AFD on [[Iraq body Count Project]]; this is an organization, using a particularly insensitive name to the victims and families, is attempting to pass itself off as non-profit and solict funds whereas its website specifically states donations are not tax-deductable.[http://www.iraqbodycount.org/donations.php] Attempting to capitalize on the deaths of people appears highly questionable, and we perhaps should not link to it or in anyway promote this site.  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 23:03, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

*I cannot imagine why it hasn't been deleted. Follow the links, Andy, here: [http://www.iraqbodycount.org/contacts.php] --~ [[User:TK|TK]] <sup>[[User_talk:TK|MyTalk]]</sup> 23:05, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
::"''is attempting to pass itself off as non-profit and solict funds whereas its website specifically states donations are not tax-deductable''" 
::Ignoring any other issues, what's the problem with this? Is soliciting funds only acceptable to Americans if they can get a tax deduction in return? Does not being able to offer tax deductibility somehow bring into question its non-profit status? 
::[[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 23:40, 16 April 2007 (EDT) 
:::What evidence do we have the "donations" will be used for this alleged "project"?  How do we know the donations" are not going to be used to purchase an air conditioned dog house, payoff somebodies mistress, fund Nicaraguan Contras, or compenstate the families of suicide bombers?  [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:38, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

:: That link does seem self-serving and not authoritative, as required by our rules.  Please feel free to delete it.  {{unsigned|Aschlafly}}

== Hey, Not fair! ==

Hey, how come that Andy Schlafly website gets to have a decent article on evolution and we have to put up with Conservative's nonsense article?  --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 02:10, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

:Create your own wiki and you can put whatever you want there. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 02:40, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

:*Horace, do you hear that bell tolling?  I can...faintly right now...off in the distance.....listen, you'll hear it!  --~ [[User:TK|<sup>Sysop-</sup>TK]] <sub>[[User_talk:TK|/MyTalk]]</sub> 03:28, 17 April 2007 (EDT)