View source for Talk:Global fascism

== I suggest moving this page title to "Global neofascism" ==

The problem with "fascism" in this context is that it completely ignores the historical definitive characteristics of fascist ideology. Italian Fascism's occult-rooted concept of orthodox nationalism fused into the tenets of Marxist socialism can be summarized as [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdY_IMZH2Ko "national syndicalism with a philosophy of actualism."] Unless one can provide a proper basis to designate the globalist agenda as "national syndicalist," the straight-up "fascist" label is simply misleading.

On the other hand, "neofascism," more all-encompassing in what it can refer to, is a better term—the global "fascism" in our present day is not the same old strain of Fascism in Mussolini's Italy, but rather a newly developed form that applies its totalitarian tenets and particularly, a "compromise" between capitalism and Communism ("state capitalism," where private property rights are neither universal nor entirely confiscated, but granted on conditional circumstances), to a differently oriented system.

A nationalist labor union movement clamoring for a syndicate vanguard/federation to seize the means of production would probably be close to old-school Fascist ideology. Modern-day globalism isn't, and can at best be considered "neofascist." It is also worth noting that the neo-Marxist social agenda of contemporary globalists is contrary to the cultural social rigidity pursued by Italian Fascists (also a feature of Soviet Communism). Modern-day "moral degeneracy" can be traced to the [[New Left]], whose ideologues borrowed from the [[Frankfurt School]] led by [[Antonio Gramsci]], who tried to assassinate Mussolini. With this fact alone, designating a movement grounded in neo-Marxism as "fascist" is silly, seeing that neo-Marxists were not only antithetical to the social rigidity aspect of classical Fascism, but even violently attempted to overthrow Fascism in a age-old manifestation of intrasocialist conflict. It's also worth noting that neo-Marxists are not "Communists." Sure, Marxist–Leninist theory promoted moral degradation, but actual Communist regimes were culturally "national-conservative." —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 16:24, September 7, 2023 (EDT)

:Don't take any of these comments as being the last word. But basically we've had this discussion on the [[Fascism]] talk page; fascism originally was an economic concept, that post-1939 acquired a different meaning in the Angelosphere anti-Nazi propaganda networks with quite a different meaning from its original context. And that revised meaning persists to this day, which, IMO, creates a lot of confusion.

:For now, I'd suggest creating a redirect [[Global neo-fascism]] to here until this concept gets worked out (and this also avoids creating more confusion by having to create a separate neo-fascism article to distinguish it from Global neo-fasicm). [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 16:37, September 7, 2023 (EDT)

:War propaganda tends to do things like this - change the meaning of words and concepts from the beginning of the conflict until its ultimate end. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 16:40, September 7, 2023 (EDT)

::[EC] Yes, Italian Fascism was economic because it was essentially a "reformist" approach to fixing socialism from the failures of Marxism, aimed ultimately at creating a successful utopian paradise that would retain a socialist structure, even if compromises were to be made. However, its early stages were a left-wing nationalist labor union movement (anarcho-syndicalism) that appealed to populist sentiments—the global "fascism" of nowadays, by contrast, is a blatantly top-down, elitist organization which places no central emphasis on working-class labor unionism.
::Even if definitive perceptions change as a result of war, the characteristics of the original ideological strain should be kept in mind, especially since misuse of the word "fascism" as a generic insult is a longstanding propaganda tactic of "orthodox" socialists and neo-Marxists.
::And to reiterate, globalist "neofascism" is inherently neo-Marxist in cultural outlook, which is mutually antithetical to both classical Fascism and Soviet Communism. Hence, the "fascism" of modern-day globalism can only be validly described as a newer development of the fascist model to fit an entirely different ideology, hence the word "neofascism." —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 16:45, September 7, 2023 (EDT)
:::Those are very good observations. Fascism was viewed as a hybrid, or perverted form of Marxism, retaining class structure and capitalism.

:::It kinda goes back to [[Marxism-Leninism]] - Marx gave the instructions to overthrow the existing capitalist order, but didn't give any practical guidance how to govern afterward. Lenin had to fill in the blanks on the fly. While at the same time in the 1920s Mussolini offered an alternative view by compromising with the existing capitalist structure (and not destroying them as the Bolsheviks did) so long as they recognized him as in control.

:::But originally, anti-Semitism was not in the fascist program; it was the formation of the [[Axis]] alliance with Hitler's National Socialism that made fascism a dirty word. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 18:24, September 7, 2023 (EDT)

::::Yeah, the early stages of Fascism in Italy and Britain were not focused on Jew-hatred in contrast to Nazism—for Fascists then, much as was the traditional Marxist worldview, a Jew was acceptable if they converted from Judaism to socialism, which many self-hating, left-wing Jews did. And during the 1920s, Mussolini and his Fascist ideology were mainstream, even [https://fascinatingpolitics.com/2020/06/21/when-americans-loved-mussolini/ popular] in the United States. —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 19:39, September 7, 2023 (EDT)

:::::Read [[Fascism and the New Deal]]; fascism was mainstream in the United States right up to 1939. It's only after the war started Mussolini got tossed into the same bag with the anti-Semites. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 19:54, September 7, 2023 (EDT)

::::::Up to 1939? I know that [https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Companion_to_Franklin_D_Roosevelt/r4-UnSYARiMC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=fdr+volkischer+beobachter&pg=PT548&printsec=frontcover the mutual connection between FDR's New Deal and Fascists/Nazis] lasted till somewhere between the mid- to late 1930s, though fascism itself remained mainstream in the U.S. for that long? —[[User:LT|<code><span style="background:#FF8181">'''LT'''</span></code>]] '''''[[User talk:LT|<sup>Rev. 22:13</sup>]]''''' Thursday, 19:59, September 7, 2023 (EDT)

:::::::1939 is when the English language war propaganda kicked into overdrive. The US finally got involved in the conflict late 1941, early 1942. 
:::::::Now with the 1936 Italian invasion of Ethiopia, one can argue fascism began to be discolored as "aggressive", warlike, and warmongering; but it still wasn't defined as antisemitic. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 20:07, September 7, 2023 (EDT)
:::::::The case of [[Franco]] and the [[Spanish Civil War]] would have to be discussed separately. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 20:17, September 7, 2023 (EDT)