Talk:Flood Geology

List of criticisms

Despite suggesting that this is the place for criticisms of flood geology, I'm deleting the list that Cgday put in this article for the following reasons:

1. Because it is a copy and paste from a discussion forum on another web-site. Conservapedia articles are supposed to be original content.
2. Because a list of this format and length is not appropriate for an encyclopedia article.
3. The list is introduced with the comment, "'This list is to establish that those criticisms have been raised, not to suggest they have any weight". If that is all, then mentioning the fact and putting a link in a footnote is sufficient.
4. Also on that comment, and to use an analogy, an article on the moon landings that listed criticisms (that they were faked) simply on the grounds that they have been raised is ludicrous. Surely the criticisms should have some validity before being included/mentioned/etc.
5. I doubt that a forum post would be considered an acceptable source even for linking to in a footnote.

Philip J. Rayment 06:36, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

just as a point of clarification - it's not copied from there but they did copy that from my original source. Never mind, I'll construct the list from scratch - Peer reviewed journals are fine as sources right? --Cgday 06:41, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

I shouldn't worry. If we start to put too much science in User:Conservative will lock the page and replace it with quotes. Nematocyte 06:59, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

That site was the only one that showed up on a Google search, although another search earlier in the day (probably with a slightly different search string) did show up another one that was very similar. But I'm not disputing you on that point.

Yes, peer-reviewed journals are okay as sources. But please keep in mind comments 2, 3, and 4 in my post above.

Also, please avoid arguments that rely on assuming uniformitarian geology to be true, as that is the logical fallacy of begging the question. A number of the arguments on that list did that.

Philip J. Rayment 07:28, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Dating

From the Article: "On this basis, archaeological dates which purport to show civilisations and artifacts being older than the Flood cannot be used to invalidate the date of the flood because they are based on the presumption that there was no Flood."

But we know that there were civilisations before the flood? Just checking. Cracker_talk 10:58, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Good point; I'll have to clarify that. (By the way, it is still a work in progress.) Philip J. Rayment 11:06, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Actually, archaeological dates that purport to show that any civilization spanned the year of the Great Flood ought not be used, because they presume that there was no Flood. Yes, at least one civilization existed before the Flood. But the Flood destroyed it. An artifact--called an out-of-place artifact--might persist from that antediluvian civilization. But it would not be part of any post-diluvian civilization.--TerryH^Talk 15:36, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Actually, when you think about who needs to provide the burden of proof on this matter those who believe that there was a flood need to provide the proof. Those who do not believe that there was a flood only has to be shown proof that there was a flood. To discredit evidence on the basis that there was a flood and therefore the evidence is not valid due to the impossibility of existence because of the flood leads to forming the research around the idea instead of forming the idea around the observations. This is contrary to impartial research.--TimS 15:47, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

You haven't explained why it is that the burden of proof is on supporters of the flood.

I wonder what "those who do not believe that there was a flood" would consider to be "proof". I suspect that they would not be convinced even if a lot of supportive evidence was offered.

Your comment about discrediting evidence on the basis that there was a flood misses TerryH's point. First, a date is not "evidence" itself (you don't dig up dates), it is a calculation based on evidence and assumptions. Second, TerryH was talking about such dates that are calculated presuming that there was no flood. To use dates based on the presumption that there was no flood to show that there was no flood is a circular argument, and it is quite proper to exclude them.

Philip J. Rayment 23:18, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Philip the reason why the burden of proof falls on the shoulders of those who say there was a flood is because of a basic principle of scientific reasoning, that claiming that something happened requires evidence of the event passing while claiming that nothing had happened requires a lack of evidence that the event happened. So in other words without evidence that there was a world flood then those who said it did not happen are supported whereas with evidence of the world flood those who claim no flood occurred would be shown false.

I know I would be convince that there was a world flood if

1. The divergence in species (both human and animal) could have happened in that short of a time after the flood, assuming the 2 of every animal.

2. If the water chemistry supported a flood.

3. If the evidence of a superstructure (ark) were found.

4. If humanoid fossils could be proven to be younger than the flood.

5. If the glacier erosion of the great lakes was shown to be false.

6. If the diversification of plant life could be explained within the time frame after the flood.

7. If the earth's strata showed a single mineral deposit band consistent with a flood on all land masses today within the same geological time frame.

8. A model could be provided of how the flood occurred that would not have reasonably destroyed the Ark (falling stones and water pressure from the crack idea), Starved the animals (how did the animals live without several times their body weight in food), and explained where the water went in such a short time (if the land masses split and rose the strata would show it on surfaced landmasses as well as oceanic strata cores).--TimS 12:05, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

Philip about the date thing, this is forming the research around the idea and not the idea around the research. Dates are arbitrary, that is true however time between events is not arbitrary, it can be used for scientific research. When TerryH said that we should not count the evidence that presumes that there was no flood it leads to a biased research. The evidence that is dated older than the flood should be counted and verified with the evidence supporting a flood. This is the only way to prevent unbiased research. Evidence is not biased, it is the person interpreting the evidence that is. To ignore evidence on the basis that it is in conflict with your idea is like a drug company saying that a product is safe even though it has killed 18 out of 100 clinical trial patients. For research to be trustworthy it must explore all practical and available routes within the scope of its study.--TimS 12:05, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

As far as the burden of proof is concerned, you may be right in your argument, but I'm not sure, because the alternative is not "nothing happened". In theory it may be, but in practice secular geology proposes that something happened. So we have two competing theories of something happening. From that point of view, why should the burden of proof be on one of those "somethings" and not the other?

As for you numbered points:

1. Speciation has been observed happening within a few generations, so I would argue that points 1 and 6 have been shown to be possible.
2. I don't understand this one.
3. I hope they find it one day!
4. See my comments below about dating.
5. I believe that this does not need to be false; it could be consistent with flood geology.
6. See No. 1.
7. This is not what flood geology proposes, so is a straw-man. See also my comments below about dating.
8. There might be a bit of a straw-man in this one, but the rest has been answered. See the book A Feasibility Study of Noah's Ark by John Woodmorappe.

Dates are a time between two events (being the event being dated and the present) adjusted to a common reference. So when we are talking about dates, it is really the time between events that we are discussing.

I agree that evidence is not biased but the interpreters of the evidence are. But dates are not evidence. They are a calculation done by a biased interpreter of the evidence. And his biases can affect that calculation. So we are not saying that evidence should be ignored; we are saying that dates that are calculated according to opposing biases should be ignored.

I agree that "for research to be trustworthy it must explore all practical and available routes within the scope of its study", which means that naturalistic science that excludes some ideas (such as flood geology) on the basis that it involves a supernatural being are not trustworthy.

Finally, thanks for the civil discussion; it makes a change from many that I've had.

Philip J. Rayment 22:12, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

As far as “nothing happened” I may have understated this. Since the variables that are being tested are based on the logic of what is changed from the current norm. In other woods since we have not see a global flood since the declaration of a flood, it is considered a one time event then the proof is to be based on the change. For example, the meteor impact idea that a meteor supposedly landed in what is now the Gulf of Mexico and caused 200 foot tidal waves that washed out the southern part of now the US. This idea had to provide the proof of a meteor and impact speeds and size for it to gain any ground in the scientific community. We know that meteors hit the planet several times each year, so that was not implausible, however for one of this size and did this much damage there needed to be proof, much like a world flood. We know that there are floods on the planet several times each year but a flood of this size and this damage would need to have evidence to convince the scientific community that it happened.--TimS 09:56, 19 April 2007 (EDT)

Just to point out a couple of things,

1. While speciation had been observed happening within a few generations it has never been shown to happen so rapidly and to include such diversity. Consider this, if Noah had 10 types of grass on the ark to reach the rough 10,000 we have today there would have been at least 1.6 new species each year. Now keep in mind this is for grass only, an organism that can change rapidly due to selective breeding (When I mean rapidly I mean within 20 to 30 years) we would have to apply this to trees and other plants as well. Consider the number of species of plants we have in the world today (excluding the aquatic plants, however fresh water aquatic plants would have died) it is highly unlikely that 6K years would produce enough change without some unstable environment that would be rapidly mutating the plants to produce the 1M plus species of plants we see today. If this was the case, (free radicals, UV light and other mutagens) it would have affected humans as well.
2. The water chemistry is based on the saturation of salts and minerals, with the addition of the water to the already existing ocean and in conjunction with the idea that the water was removed from land by placement within the oceans would mean that the salinity of the preexisting oceans would have been so high that only the most primitive forms of bacteria could have lived in it. On that same note fish would have had to adjust within a year to the decrease of salinity in order to survive, this is highly unlikely since anyone with experience in marine chemistry and marine biology knows that fish are highly sensitive to changes in alkalinity and salinity in their environments, enough that only a few increases in PPM is enough to kill them.
3. I do as well
4. I agree as well about dates but the time that had passed should not be ignored. To do so would discredit ideas that a based on timelines, like creationism.
5. It is the speed at which the glaciers move. Not to mention the concept of an ice age occurring between the time of the flood and modern time. For an ice age to have occurred to create the glaciers large enough to form the great lakes it would have had to lower the global temperature significantly, enough that it would have been noticed by civilizations, even at the equator. As for the speed, the glacier formation and the advancing and retreating of the glacier to develop the lakes would have taken thousands of years to achieve. The only way for it to not have is if the earth went through a series of freeze thaws with high precipitation during the freezes to accumulate enough snow pack to form a glacier and that allows enough time for glacier movement then thaw the glacier away to do the cycle once more. This would have been detrimental to any and all wildlife in the area not to mention the extreme climate foliations that would have been felt globally.
6. Mentioned above.
7. Maybe this would be of interest with the strata argument. Why is most sediment on high ground? Most sediment is carried until the water slows down or stops. If the water stopped in the oceans, we should expect more sediment there. Baumgardner's own modeling shows that, during the Flood, currents would be faster over continents than over ocean basins so sediments should, on the whole, be removed from continents and deposited in ocean basins. Yet sediments on the ocean basin average 0.6 km thick, while on continents (including continental shelves), they average 2.6 km thick.
8. I have read the book, it was interesting but there where a lot of holes in the idea. Mostly about waste management and animal handling for 15,754 animals. It did not however answer how the ark could have survived the turbulent nature of the flood with the upheaval of the earth’s crust to form new land masses as well as the energy released from the mantle in such a process.

I must comment about the supernatural. The search for the supernatural is considered scientific since it is falsifiable, we find evidence of the supernatural or not (why SETI is scientifically based) but to use the supernatural to explain an observation is not scientific due to the lack of falsifiablity of the research unless the supernatural entity has been shown to A. exist and B. contribute to the event.

I am glad you enjoy the discussion. I do believe that evidence tends to speak for itself as long as it is looked at objectively, which can be hard for some. I know that some feel that debating is negative, mostly due to insecurities of background knowledge of a topic (ToE for example), and try to prevent the opposing POV from presenting its evidence. I do hope to continue this discussion, for I am very interested in gleaning why a person believes as they do.--TimS 09:56, 19 April 2007 (EDT)

You seem to argue here that assuming part of your argument takes analysis outside the realm of science - at least that's what TerryH argues, when he says that "assuming there was no flood" makes it not good science. Conceding this point arguendo, I'd like to cross apply your reasoning, and broaden its scope: assuming part of an argument does invalidate the argument, I will phrase it. Applying this to creation science, which Philip concedes assumes a creator, it is clear that creation science is also bad science.-AmesG_yo! 23:22, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

If that comment is a response to mine, I don't know what you are referring to, as I didn't mention anything about "the realm of science". Philip J. Rayment 23:27, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Realm of science, meaning, "good science."-AmesG_yo! 23:27, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

I didn't mention anything about "good science" either, so that answer was less than helpful. Philip J. Rayment 05:40, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

I think that he's referring to Occam's razor, and that invisible pink elephant that's hovering over your shoulder. Go on, prove it isn't there! :-) Wikinterpreter^talk?

I can prove that there is no invisible pink elephant hovering over my shoulder in two ways; logical and according to the laws of physics.

Logical, because something cannot be both pink and invisible at the same time, so it is logically impossible for an invisible pink elephant to exist.

According to the laws of physics, and assuming that this invisible pink elephant differs from normal elephants only in that it is pink, invisible, and able to hover, because (a) I can't feel it, and (b) there is not enough space in this room I'm in for an elephant to fit.

As for any serious aspect to your comment is concerned, it hasn't enlightened me to what AmesG was getting at one bit.

Philip J. Rayment 11:07, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

Subterranean Salt Deposits

There is a band of sea-deposited salt that underlies many sedimentary rocks stretching from West of Ireland into Russia. Would any 'flood-geologist' please explain this.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by LateralQuercus (talk)

I'm not a geologist but I know a bit about flood geology. But not knowing the deposits that you are referring to, this is not enough information on which to comment. Philip J. Rayment 23:23, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Why not?-AmesG_yo! 23:23, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Probably because he doesn't want to comment on something about which he doesn't possess information? Can't blame him for it.--M 10:41, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

I would have to support Philip in this as well. Without the information, weblink would be nice, I would not want to make a guess either.--TimS 11:05, 18 April 2007 (EDT)