Difference between revisions of "Talk:Natural science"

Revision as of 14:55, May 7, 2007

Irony

Isn't it it sort of ironic to reference a creationist on the 'science' page?

For extra kicks: How often Apologie Educational Ministries are used as reference ;) I only made that search after a few blogs pointed it out. --Sid 3050 19:01, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Peer review

Conservatives referencing science! This is like a construction company trying to build a modern building with a primitive hammer and wooden rivets, consulting from architectural plans interpreted through Aramaic, Greek, Latin and then English of whose origins you do not know and whose different pages contradict themselves. Personally I would much rather trust information that was obtained using only the soundest of scientific methods that was many times over peer reviewed and tested many times over accounting for as many variables as possible. Don't trust this method? You already do when you fly in a plane or drive your car (thermodynamics, aerodynamics, chemistry, metallurgy, physics, etc.) For peer reviewed information go back to school or consult wikepedia. For amusement, browse your heart away here!

Peer review is no guarantee of correctness. It just means an article is good enough to be checked by other scientists. If an article fails peer review, it is either because (1) the research was so poorly conducted or described that there's no point in other scientists bothering with it, or (2) it represents such a challenge to established scientific belief that the journal chooses to suppress it. --Ed Poor 08:27, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

Woah!!! PoV. How about "(2) Results are not supported by results from other researchers and cannot be explained according to our current understanding. Therefore, there is a good chance that the results are erroneous". If the data are good enough, they will be published. There is no incentive on a journal to suppress research just because it doesn't fit the paradigm. The only incentive is for the journal to not publish high-profile research which is later proved to be wrong, which is embarrassing for the journal. Aloysius 09:51, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

There is evidence that journals do decline publishing ideas that go against the currently-popular paradigm. Philip J. Rayment

I don't deny it. But Ed seems to be assigning some sinister motive on the part of the journals - suppressing new results - which isn't necessarily true. There is a reason why the currently-popular paradigm is currently popular - it's because that explanation is the one that, in the opinion of the majority of researchers in that field, best fits the available data. Any findings which run counter to the paradigm need to have exceptionally good evidence to support them. A journal won't want to run a "The current paradigm is completely wrong" paper if there's any chance that it will turn out that the paper is wrong, because that reflects badly on the journal's editor. In summary, the peer review system isn't perfect, but Ed's wording there presents a highly biased point of view (which is, of course, contrary to conservapedia rules). Aloysius 11:28, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm not assigning sinister motives, but I do recall multiple instances of scientists whose papers were rejected - for reasons other than shoddy research or poor writing. Science and Nature do it all the time. And journal editors have been forced to resign for daring to publish well-written, carefully researched studies.

This is nothing new. The history of science is littered with it. I'm reading Farley Mowat's 1963 book Never Cry Wolf, in which he exposes prejudice in the scientific establishment in Canada. People lose their jobs when they upset the applecart, especially when they use the leverage of facts (see Whistleblower). --Ed Poor 11:37, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

There seems to be a common fallacy that scientists are all about maintaining the status quo. But new discoveries are the driving force in science. New discoveries are what win Nobel prizes, and get big research grants, and get papers in prestigious journals. The peer review/paradigm system introduces a certain amount of inertia into the system which can be counterproductive (occasionally good research can be rejected initially) but in most instances helps to winnow out anomalous or wrong results. Aloysius 11:45, 2 May 2007 (EDT)

"Operational" v "Historical" science.

My edit in this regard was reverted [1]. The only people who make this distinction are creationists. Philosophers of science don't. You won't find this distinction discussed anywhere other than on creationist websites, and it doesn't show up in Popper, Kunn, Lakatos, Quine or anyone other philsopher of note in the area. JoshuaZ 10:55, 7 May 2007 (EDT)