Talk:Biology and creation

Surely we need to qualify young earth and old earth creationists here? Because young earth creationists cannot agree with the biology of mutation rates, unless somehow suggesting that mutation rates were far higher, and constantly more beneficial just after the flood? Old earth creationists can perhaps accept all the same science as an evolutionist, except that of abiogenesis, but I suspect more often than not they believe that the animals have been design, and the hand of god has guided evolution, which is not a belief held by evolutionists.

I'm positive there are many other aspects of biology that young earth creationists would disagree upon.Raggs 12:45, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

Sorry, I don't understand. What is the "biology of mutation rates"? And why is that relevant to the article? --Ed Poor ^Talk 12:51, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

I assume Raggs means the rate at which mutations occur, and that would be relevant if there have only been a few thousand years since the flood. But I came here to say something a little different - surely it cannot be true that "Creationist biologists accept all the biology that an evolutionist accepts" - given that evolution plays such a central part in modern biology, as an underpinning theory and an observed fact. The article almost seems to be saying "Creationist biologists accept all the biology that an evolutionist accepts, except for the biology"! Humblpi 12:59, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

To answer your question on my usertalk (may as well state it here), I've got a zoology degree, have worked in the field of prosimians and am planning on starting a phd soon (hell I hope to become a professor one day, so perhaps I'm not worth listening to ;)). Also I've discussed this and these topics a fair old bit. Humblpi has basically got it. Mutation rates are pretty damn constant, not just in mammals but bacteria as well, the reason they evolve so much faster is their amazingly rapid generation time compared to ours. In short, if you're dealing with a 4000 year time period, mutation rates must have been through the roof (not only a very tiny population to work with, but also a hell of a lot to diversify to), and somehow avoid negative mutations (which are far more dangerous in small populations than large ones). YEC would have a lot of problems with biology (all related to evolutionary concepts, but there are a few). OEC can indeed accept every part of biology unscathed (depending of course on their beliefs). It just seems like a very short article, containing barely any information, and that which is contained needs to be qualified in many places.Raggs 14:01, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

The article appears to be based on a comment I made here, in which I said:

Creationist biologists accept all the biology that an evolutionist accepts, but disagrees on how living things came about. That is, they agree on the observable facts, not on the unobserved history.

But the claim that "evolution plays such a central part in modern biology, as an underpinning theory" is simply rhetoric, with little basis in fact. See here for more. And (molecules to man) evolution is not an "observed fact". Nobody has ever seen a creature evolved into a different kind of creature.

I'm curious about Raggs' claim of bacteria evolving fast: What have we seen bacteria evolving into (i.e. becoming something other than bacteria)? The point is, despite the rapid generation time, we have not seen them evolve (i.e. change into something else), yet if evolution were true, surely that's exactly what we would expect. In effect, it's a prediction of evolution that has been falsified.

I don't understand the comment about mutation rates being through the roof if you're dealing with a 4,000-year time period. It seems to be suggesting that creationists believe that everything evolved from the first living thing, just as evolutionists claim, but over a period of 4,000 years. If this is what Raggs is saying, he is just showing his gross ignorance of the idea that he so readily tries to point out problems with. YECs don't believe in (molecules to man) evolution at all.

Philip J. Rayment 22:51, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

Come now, stop trying to make me out to be ignorant and merely land yourself there instead. We have seen bacteria evolve resistance to antibiotics, they don't need to become anything other than bacteria, and they have still evolved. Evolution doesn't have to lead to bacteria becoming anything else (or even multicelluar), you are using a misconceived definition of evolution I'm afraid.

As Humbli stated, and as I would have thought to be obvious, the 4000 year figure comes from the flood. We have pairs of animals, now unless you claim noah manage to fit two (or seven or fourteen of some animals), of every species that exists today, then he must have taken two of every "kind" (at whatever point creationists decide to define as a kind at the time). Now if we only have two to start with, and a lot of species to get to, then we need a lot of mutation to achieve the species variety in such a short time, and even more so because we are dealing with tiny populations. So if you are willing to state creationist biologists believe in everything evolutionists believe in, except molecules to man, then they would also accept mutation rates, however they cannot agree with biologists on these things due to the reasons I've just stated. Mutation is an observable event. Mutation rates are observable. The mechanism of replication is observable. So unless the replication systems have changed a great deal in the past few thousands years (in order to slow down speciation (more comfortable a word for you as opposed to evolution?)), then YEC biologists must argue mutation rates.

And to be honest, I'd like to go back to when mutation was extremely fast, and apparently almost never bad. Because that's another important thing you have to consider, with a large population and slow mutation you have a good buffer to survive negative mutations (doesn't matter if some animals just don't make it), when dealing with a very small population, in which almost every animal has some serious mutations, then you're facing big trouble.Raggs 02:16, 10 April 2008 (EDT)