Difference between revisions of "Talk:Greek influence on Western Culture"

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This is an ''encyclopedia'' entry?  "I would like to thank classical Greek civilization for the invention of man-boy love affairs."  This is a ''conservative'' entry?
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[[Editing Talk:Greek influence on Western Culture/Archive 1]] --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 00:33, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
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I suggest that this whole entry be moved to "talk" and the "Greek empire" page be left empty if there is no qualified material for it.{{Unsigned|Anitra}}
 
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I am going to clear out all this nonsense pretty soon, and make it into something resembling an article.  I notice Joaquin has edited it a lot, and he has said stuff to me twice already about not removing items before saying something, so here I am: I am going to remove at least half of the junk in it, and rewrite it almost entirely.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 22:58, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Please improve the article. [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 23:07, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Okay, this has probably been up long enough now.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 01:15, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Thanks. Good work.  [[User:HenryS|HenryS]] 01:31, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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As should be obvious to anyone now, Joaquin has decided he doesn't want to discuss his edits, he just wants to keep making them over and over.  Seven, eight times now.  I have brought this to his attention almost as many times on his user talk, but he ignores me.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 14:01, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Tom you may want to just let it go.  It would appear that Joaquin believes you are nitpicking and that any "debate" on it is a waste of his time.  He would rather create.  Perhaps he feels the blockquote indentation simply gives it a better layout.  Is it that important?  You've expressed your concerns and been true to your own beliefs.  Now it may be best to just move on. [[User:Learn together|Learn together]] 14:29, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::That is in no way fair.  Blockquoting like that may make it look better on his screen, but because people have a varying size of screen or windows to view the page, it makes it look awful in other resolutions.  This is one of the basic principles for web pages and the way HTML and by extension wiki markup was designed.
 
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::The issue here is not that I am right and he is wrong, although I do obviously think I am correct.  It's that he has reverted continually, ignoring my pleas to discuss it and perhaps compromise on a solution.  I don't think it is best to move on, because the next time he edits an article we both happen to work on, and we disagree, I will have set a precedent that he can just refuse to cooperate or collaborate.
 
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::It is not unreasonable to ask him to at least acknowledge the discussion and perhaps even explain himself.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 14:39, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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Joaquin, it would probably be best to explain the reversions, because some clean up could be useful. [[User:DanH|DanH]] 14:31, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:Yes, I am sure the article could be better. What we need to have clear is the procedure. It is not acceptable to delete important information or images without the opinion of other editors. You can not ask for explanations when you dont give explanations or wait for a reply. The image of Pericles is necessary. It is infront of his name and represent an important time of Greek development. Images do what words can not do. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 15:34, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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I'm sorry, Joaquin... are you seriously suggesting I didn't want to discuss it with you?
 
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From your talk page:
 
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<div style="background:#eee">::Joaquin, I am curious as to why you think the Pericles image (the only thing I removed) should be on that page, since he isn't mentioned at all except for a link to his page (where the image ''would'' belong).  I didn't think it should be there, so I removed it and suggested a change you could make if you wanted to re-add it: namely, talking about Pericles somehow on the page.  If you think Pericles is important to greek influence on western culture, it would seem reasonable to say why, instead of insisting on just including his image, regardless of how important you personally might think it is.  If you spent a long time looking for it, I'm sorry, but that's not really grounds for including it on a page to which it has no relation at the current time.  Thank you and I hope you understand my position.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 23:07, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Please respond, Joaquin, so we can resolve this.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 15:15, 6 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Well, I know you've read this by now, Joaquin, since a little message appears at the top reminding you that you have new messages, and you have been on and editing over the past days this has been up here.  So presumably you are just ignoring it.  That's not very reasonable when I am trying to resolve the issue with this page, so I think if you are on again and editing without responding, it is reasonable for me to re-make my changes.  It's not fair you just refuse to discuss it--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 13:55, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::I am reverting back to my last good version, Joaquin.  I still encourage you to discuss it, if you are still interested.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 12:46, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::Hey Joaquin, I noticed that despite my many messages here asking for explanation, you have reverted my edit today some days after I made it, without explanation here or on my talk page or on the article's talk page.  I would refer you to Conservapedia's Guidelines, which suggest, ''"Let others know what you are doing, and respond quickly to queries."''
 
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:::Please do me the courtesy of replying, not just reverting without explanation.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 23:00, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::I see you have reverted again.  You know a little box pops up when you have a new message, so Im pretty confident you have seen this by now, especially since you have replied to other people here.  This is incredibly rude.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 11:52, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::::I'm not sure what I have to do to get you to give me some basic respect as an editor.  You won't discuss your edit, you just keep reverting.  You just did it again.  Why are you so insistent on putting paragraphs in blockquotes when it is needless, rewriting the page to poorer English, and inserting a picture of an Athenian general who is not mentioned in the article?--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 14:01, 16 June 2008 (EDT)</div>
 
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You have exhibited nothing but disrespect for me, not even deigning to apologize for blocking me unfairly over this issue, and afterwards simply ignoring me and my requests to discuss it!
 
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The image of Pericles would be entirely relevant, but there is ''nothing about Pericles on the page.'' There is a ''link'' to ''his'' article, but his name is not otherwise mentioned.  And I urge you to please back up your claim that I "deleted important information."  Inasmuch as I can see, I ''incorporated'' your edits concisely and better except for your penchant for blockquoting and the image.--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 16:41, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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----
 
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I understand that CP needs a lot of help. There are thousands of articles to be done and thousands to improve. I have no time to loose in useless discussions. But for this time I will spend some minutes.
 
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This was your first foul:
 
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http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Greek_influence_on_Western_Culture&diff=prev&oldid=466865
 
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You lost among other things:
 
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''Traditional Western Culture is said to have been created by three main historical factors: ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, and Christianity. As such, it is also known by the terms "Greco-Roman culture", " Judeo-Christian culture", or "Judeo-Hellenic-Christian culture". ''
 
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All with '''an insult''':  ''Rewrote the whole mess''.
 
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This whole mess was started by SharonS and she follow a system that I found very Greek, based in questions.
 
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Your second disgrace:
 
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http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Greek_influence_on_Western_Culture&diff=prev&oldid=467338
 
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Loosing among other things:
 
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''history, in Greek, means "investigations". ''
 
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and
 
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''The Greeks also invented tragedy, the basis of modern plays, skits, and movies. Comedy made its appearance with [[Aristophanes]]. [[Ibidem]]''
 
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and the image of Pericles.
 
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YOU DID THIS WITHOUT WAITING AS YOU WERE ASKED TO.
 
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But that was not all.
 
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Now in:
 
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http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Greek_influence_on_Western_Culture&diff=next&oldid=475455
 
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You lost another image as well a valuable information:
 
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Image:Greece Delphi Oracle.jpg
 
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You have been 2 times asked not to delete before using the talk page and as expected waiting for the reply. See http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Europa&direction=next&oldid=466116
 
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But you think you are along here. What you need is a good lesson that sooner or later will come, because, I am sure, you don't want to work in this team. You have questioned even Andy. What else may we expect from you?
 
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--[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 19:16, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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''All with an insult.''
 
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When you started writing on the page, Joaquin, it was already roughly in the shape it is in now.  [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Greek_influence_on_Western_Culture&oldid=237665 You can see here].  Contrary to what you appear to believe, this is not ''your'' article.  It was a collaborative work.  And it was a mess.  It had vandalism go unnoticed for your dozen edits, blockquotes to no purpose, and was written like a collection of children's answers to the opening rhetorical question.  I'm sorry we have to get into this, but it only vaguely resembled an encyclopedia article.  I'm sorry you object to that characterization, but the only thing I was insulting was the article itself.  You don't own it.
 
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''You lost among other things''
 
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The first example you chose is in my version, actually.  Did you read it?
 
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"Traditional western culture is said to have been created by three main historical factors: ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, and Christianity. As such, it is also known by the terms "Greco-Roman culture", "Judeo-Christian culture", or "Judeo-Hellenic-Christian culture"."
 
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''This whole mess was started by SharonS and she follow a system that I found very Greek, based in questions.''
 
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And that's fine, if encyclopedias like this one were written using the Socratic method.  But they're not, because it looks... well, because it winds up looking like that.  Encyclopedias are intended to be concise reference works.
 
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''Loosing among other things: history, in Greek, means "investigations".''
 
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I actually have a section about history and Herodotus in there, again if you read it.  It's true I lost that anecdote about the mean of the word.  It seemed superfluous.  But that one is arguable.  You could have easily re-added it.  Instead you reverted all my edits as a whole, repeatedly.
 
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''The Greeks also invented tragedy, the basis of modern plays, skits, and movies. Comedy made its appearance with [[Aristophanes]]. [[Ibidem]]''
 
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You're right that I fixed the reference that you tried to put in.  That's not how you do it.  In wiki markup, it is generally advisable to use the <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tag.  But you're wrong that the other information is not in there.  "such as the whole of the initial development of dramatic and comedic plays by such figures as Aristophanes"
 
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''and the image of Pericles.''
 
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Which I have exhaustively reminded you is irrelevant to a page that doesn't even mention him.  You should probably add something about him before you add a picture of him.  There are no pictures of busts of Plato on the page... why don't you add one of him, since he was infinitely more influential and actually is in the article?
 
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''YOU DID THIS WITHOUT WAITING AS YOU WERE ASKED TO.''
 
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You asked me to wait?  I'm sorry, I must have missed where you replied to me.  Would you do me a favor and link me to that?  I do see on this page how I said well before my edits on this page began that I was going to do them, and I see how in the description of my later edits to your new material that I explained what I was doing and made a suggestion.  And I see how on your talk page I posted more than a half-dozen messages asking you if you would please mind discussing this rather than just reverting.  Could you help me out and show me where you told me to wait?
 
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''You lost another image as well a valuable information:  Image:Greece Delphi Oracle.jpg''
 
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You're right, I deleted that image.  Not only is the oracle not mentioned on the page, it isn't even on the links.  It has even less excuse to be on the page, even in comparison with the Pericles image that didn't belong there.
 
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''But you think you are along here. What you need is a good lesson that sooner or later will come, because, I am sure, you don't want to work in this team. You have questioned even Andy. What else may we expect from you? ''
 
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You may expect enormous improvements to articles, like I did to this one.  If I might ask, would you prefer we change it back to what it looked like before me?
 
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So, Joaquin, I will sum up.  You assert I deleted a section on descriptors for civilization, which I didn't delete (although I probably should have).  You assert I deleted a four word blurb about the meaning of "history," which is somewhat less than tragic and which you could have added back easily.  You assert I deleted a section about tragedy and comedy and Aristophanes, which I didn't delete.  You assert I deleted a picture of a general who is not mentioned in the article but only the links, and you assert I deleted a picture of an oracle which isn't even in the links.  You assert I began with an insult by calling an article that was a mess by its rightful label, apparently because you think any criticism of the article is a criticism of yourself.  And lastly, you assert I didn't try to talk about these edits ''even though'' I gave lengthy comments in the edit summary and, as soon as I got back from being blocked by you and unblocked by another, I went to your talk page and proceeded to leave a very long series of messages in the one place you couldn't have failed to see because MediaWiki informs you when you have new messages there?
 
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I trust the other people reading this can reach the obvious conclusion that I have done nothing wrong.  I take exception to the manner in which I have been treated by this sysop, and have acted only with the utmost reasonableness at every turn, begging him to contact me so we could discuss it and compromise.  ''Finis.''--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 19:39, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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: Greeks had a name for your philosophy: Sophists!
 
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: To be clear, next time you delete some valuable material I will do my best to see you out for some time. --[[User:Joaquín Martínez]], [[User talk:Joaquín Martínez|talk]] 19:51, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::You're amazing, you know that? It's completely and utterly amazing how you avoid simply discussing the issue. [[User:Wandering|Wandering]] 20:01, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::Joaquin, I note that you have refused to respond to my clear response to your accusations.  I also note you have refused to apologize.  In fact, if I am not much mistaken that is some sort of threat.
 
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::This article is locked because of continual reverts.  We must still reach a conclusion, as distasteful as that might be to you.  As I have noted painstakingly, your accusations that I have removed material with warrant are almost entirely unfounded, and your assertion that I didn't wait to tell you is absurd, as evidenced by the seven messages which you ignored over a couple of weeks.
 
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::Am I to take it that you have no more objection to my edits, or was there something else?--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 21:03, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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:::Are we back to this again?  Are you ignoring me, Joaquin?--[[user:TomMoore|<font color="#000066" >Tom Moore</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:TomMoore|fiat justitia ruat coelum]]</sup> 12:58, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 
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::::Check your font.  Are you using the unpopular, "Disappearing Times New Roman"? --[[User:Jareddr|Jareddr]] 13:03, 17 June 2008 (EDT)
 

Revision as of 04:33, June 19, 2008

Editing Talk:Greek influence on Western Culture/Archive 1 --User:Joaquín Martínez, talk 00:33, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

Retrieved from "https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:Greek_influence_on_Western_Culture&oldid=477865"