Difference between revisions of "Talk:Subacute myelo-optic neuropathy"
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::To speak more broadly: alternative medicine is a legitimate area of research. (Alternative medicine becomes relevant here because one of the most salient claims of alternative medicine as a movement is that traditional treatments end up causing more diseases than they treat.) Even some hospitals are now granting credentials to alternative practitioners and offering alternative services, now that someone has actually spent serious money to find out that many alternative therapies do work. The papers are out there for any properly industrious student to find. Therefore, one cannot reject alternative medicine out-of-hand, but everything we publish in that regard must have solid sources. Acceptable evidence can include actual experience in offering advice to patients or friends and having that advice pay off. It must, however, involve more than claims that "the regulatory agencies are in bed with the industries that they regulate." That sort of claim is more suitable for an essay than for an article."--[[User:TerryH|TerryH]]<sup>[[User talk:TerryH|Talk]]</sup> 16:45, 12 January 2009 (EST) | ::To speak more broadly: alternative medicine is a legitimate area of research. (Alternative medicine becomes relevant here because one of the most salient claims of alternative medicine as a movement is that traditional treatments end up causing more diseases than they treat.) Even some hospitals are now granting credentials to alternative practitioners and offering alternative services, now that someone has actually spent serious money to find out that many alternative therapies do work. The papers are out there for any properly industrious student to find. Therefore, one cannot reject alternative medicine out-of-hand, but everything we publish in that regard must have solid sources. Acceptable evidence can include actual experience in offering advice to patients or friends and having that advice pay off. It must, however, involve more than claims that "the regulatory agencies are in bed with the industries that they regulate." That sort of claim is more suitable for an essay than for an article."--[[User:TerryH|TerryH]]<sup>[[User talk:TerryH|Talk]]</sup> 16:45, 12 January 2009 (EST) | ||
| − | : | + | :*"The prevalence of MS in Japan has not changed over the past two decades,3,4 while rise and fall in SMON was synchronous with consumption of clioquinol in Japan and SMON disappeared when the drug was withdrawn"<ref name=Kono> "SUBACUTE MYELO-OPTIC NEUROPATHY IS NOT A SPECIAL FORM OF MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS", ''The Lancet'', Volume 320, Issue 8292, 31 July 1982, Page 267, Reisaku Kono, Yoshigoro Kuroiwa </ref> |
| − | changed over the past two decades,3,4 while rise and fall in SMON | + | :*"Several workers have produced in dogs and other animals given |
| − | was synchronous with consumption of clioquinol in Japan and | + | oral clioquinol, pathological - changes compatible with those of |
| − | SMON disappeared when the drug was withdrawn"<ref name=Kono> "SUBACUTE MYELO-OPTIC NEUROPATHY IS NOT A SPECIAL FORM OF MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS", ''The Lancet'', Volume 320, Issue 8292, 31 July 1982, Page 267, Reisaku Kono, Yoshigoro Kuroiwa </ref> | + | SMON. On the one hand, comparable results have never been |
| − | : | + | achieved in animals inoculated with the so-called Inoue virus, and |
| − | + | the very existence of this virus has been questioned."<ref name=Kono/> | |
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Revision as of 00:35, January 13, 2009
"Blood letting," of course now referred to as phlebotomy, is still used as treatment for different anomalies, including aplastic anemia and hemachromatosis. Jeffrey W. LauttamusDiscussion 11:08, 12 January 2009 (EST)
Misleading
First off, I didn't inject "overzealous virus hunters." That was in there. I merely re-worded the last sentence of the first paragraph to make it sound better. Second, the disease did not occur every time doctors prescribed clorquinol. Clorquinol is only neurotoxic in high doses. Third, this is a collaborative project and I was merely trying to make the last sentence read better. It is currently very choppy. I don't see how that is inserting a "liberal" tone into this article. Read my contributions and you will see that I am anything but a liberal editor here, please. Jeffrey W. LauttamusDiscussion 11:28, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- It's not misleading. It's accurate. I think you are injecting a worldview into the way this material is being communicated. How is it not every time? Clorquinol affects the nerves everytime it is injected into someone. SMON is the description of visible, easily measurable effects, but there are going to be effects regardless of if they are easily detectable. Alchohol is going to poison some of one's cells if you drink acholol, even in moderation. It's not a sometimes. It's everytime. --RickD 16:46, 12 January 2009 (EST)
Please...
I have asked an expert to take a look, but in the meantime, perhaps you two can try to communicate off-wiki or at least use the talk page (as opposed to edit notes) to discuss your differences? --₮K/Admin/Talk 16:21, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- Thank you, Terry. I'd appreciate an expert opinion on the matter. Jeffrey W. LauttamusDiscussion 16:23, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- Any expert is going to have his or her own opinion that disagrees with some other expert. Why can't you leave this article alone? --RickD 16:35, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- See your talk page, Rick. Jeffrey W. LauttamusDiscussion 16:36, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- I've read it. And based on your comments, I don't think you have any specific knowledge of this subject. That is you don't appear to have read anything about it or to have bother to find information on it. --RickD 16:39, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- source stating that clioquinol isn't solely responsible for SMON. I've yet to find a source that says it's neurotoxic at normal doses, merely at high doses. It's also not injected, it's an oral composition. I'm really trying to compromise, Rick. I'm okay leaving the article as-is. Jeffrey W. LauttamusDiscussion 16:50, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- I've read it. And based on your comments, I don't think you have any specific knowledge of this subject. That is you don't appear to have read anything about it or to have bother to find information on it. --RickD 16:39, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- See your talk page, Rick. Jeffrey W. LauttamusDiscussion 16:36, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- Any expert is going to have his or her own opinion that disagrees with some other expert. Why can't you leave this article alone? --RickD 16:35, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- I am pasting here, from my talk page, the post of our expert here......
- "The compromise looks acceptable to me. The article now has a reference that purports to doubt the cause-effect relationship between the drug cloquinol and the disease known as subacute myelo-optic neuropathy. While I wouldn't be surprised to find that cloquinol is a cause of SMON, the onus is now on User:RickD to provide any sort of published report, from any source, that contradicts the government's claim.
- To speak more broadly: alternative medicine is a legitimate area of research. (Alternative medicine becomes relevant here because one of the most salient claims of alternative medicine as a movement is that traditional treatments end up causing more diseases than they treat.) Even some hospitals are now granting credentials to alternative practitioners and offering alternative services, now that someone has actually spent serious money to find out that many alternative therapies do work. The papers are out there for any properly industrious student to find. Therefore, one cannot reject alternative medicine out-of-hand, but everything we publish in that regard must have solid sources. Acceptable evidence can include actual experience in offering advice to patients or friends and having that advice pay off. It must, however, involve more than claims that "the regulatory agencies are in bed with the industries that they regulate." That sort of claim is more suitable for an essay than for an article."--TerryHTalk 16:45, 12 January 2009 (EST)
- "The prevalence of MS in Japan has not changed over the past two decades,3,4 while rise and fall in SMON was synchronous with consumption of clioquinol in Japan and SMON disappeared when the drug was withdrawn"[1]
- "Several workers have produced in dogs and other animals given
oral clioquinol, pathological - changes compatible with those of SMON. On the one hand, comparable results have never been achieved in animals inoculated with the so-called Inoue virus, and the very existence of this virus has been questioned."[1]