Difference between revisions of "Talk:Essay:Greatest Conservative Novels"

Latest revision as of 00:43, March 9, 2019

Animal Farm is anti-Communist and 1984 is anti-totalitarian; this doesn't make them conservative. Dadsnagem2 11:59, 14 January 2008 (EST)

Animal Farm is actually anti-Stalinist, but yeah. In fact, 1984 is quite liberal. --MakeTomorrow 12:12, 14 January 2008 (EST)

The two books have many themes in common, including playing up an outside threat to seize or retain power. How is it that one's con and the other's lib?--Frey 12:25, 29 October 2008 (EDT)

Ok, so this was in an edit, but not on this page, but I want to raise the issue anyway. How is The Moon is a Harsh Mistress not conservative? The statement of TANSTAAFL (There ain't no such thing as a free lunch) is best statement of the bedrock of conservatism I've ever heard.ArnoldFriend 11:27, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

In fact, wasn't Orwell a socialist, disillusioned with what the USSR became, as opposed to what he hoped it would be? ArthurA 08:55, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

Ayn Rand's novels may have some conservative themes, but she was an outspoken atheist, and this is reflected in at least some of her work, especially Atlas Shrugged.--Martib 23:01, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

Right, her junk shouldn't be on this list.--Aschlafly 23:04, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

Oh, and as far as Rand goes, no list of "greatest novels" should include anything as utterly unreadable as Atlas Shrugged! :-) ArthurA 08:55, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

I was just wondering why Lord of the Rings was on the list. Certainly it has some themes that might be derived from Christianity since Tolkien was a devout Christian, but I fail to see how this or any other aspect sets it aside as distinctly 'conservative'. RobertWDP 13:25, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Listing The Moon is a Harsh Mistress as conservative is a stretch. I'd term it libertarian (almost hardcore libertarian, though not as much so as, say, Ayn Rand's works), not conservative. (We all know that libertarians do share a number of viewpoints with conservatives, but also differ on many key beliefs.) If you want to include a Heinlein novel, I'd suggest Starship Troopers. It, like Moon is somewhat libertarian in its viewpoint, but not as much so, and Troopers is also unwaveringly pro-military, a good conservative value. Support for the military simply isn't a theme that's even addressed in Moon. (For what its worth, I know several libertarian science fiction fans, including a few absolute raving libertarians, and they generally rank Heinlein up there with Rand as their favorite authors.)

I agree with RobertWDP that Lord of the Rings doesn't belong on the list. Great books though they are, I don't think Tolkien had much if any political motivation in writing them. (In fact, as I understand it, his motivation was to create something he felt Great Britain lacked -- a "myth cycle" analogous to the mythology of Greece, Rome, the Norse, Egypt, etc.) And while Tolkien was a Christian, and there are Christian elements in the books, they're not as explicitly Christian as, for instance, CS Lewis' body of work, which is steeped in Christian allegory. If you want to include a work of fantasy, I'd suggest the Narnia books, though even those I'd find it a bit of a stretch to consider them especially reflective of conservative Christianity as opposed to Christianity in general. (Disclosure: I've read LotR numerous times. I've only read Narnia once, and that's been a while back.) ArthurA 08:52, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

I also question the inclusion of some of the novels mentioned above. I've read The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and 1984, and neither of those novels exactly celebrates traditional family values. DavidE 15:58, 4 May 2011 (EDT)

Reasons for listing

As for the "best conservative songs" article, I think that the quality of this article would improve if reasons were added for each item, clearly explaining what makes that particular book "conservative". I agree with some of them, for example, but I have SERIOUS doubts on Lord of the Rings. What makes Tolkien's book CONSERVATIVE? Also, I'm not sure Orwell would have been happy to be considered a right-wing Conservative, as he stated quite clearly that everything he ever wrote, he wrote against totalitarianism, and in favour of democratic socialism. --MarcoT2 20:52, 25 July 2010 (EDT)

I'm all for adding reasons, but it seems self-evident that the works of Orwell and Tolkien are conservative.--Andy Schlafly 23:55, 25 July 2010 (EDT)

Orwell's a complex one. He was definitely a socialist, but paradoxically I think he was a deeply conservative socialist and his books are full of conservative values, such as the need for individual liberty. His portrayal of the corruption of family life under Big Brother's socialist regime - the denunciation of Parsons by his children, for example - is a strong attack on anti-family values. --SamCoulter 23:07, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

It may be self-evident to those who are well acquainted with those works, but they're not the ones who need to read the article. Shouldn't the entry have information for the benefit of those not already familiar with the writings of the listed authors? DanielPulido 00:40, 26 July 2010 (EDT)

I am well acquainted with those works, having read them several times, but sincerely, Andy, it doesn't strike me as "self-evident" that any of them can be labeled as right-wing conservative. Perhaps if you could put your thoughts into words and point out exactly what they have in common with a right-wing conservative ideology, I will be able to better appreciate, and perhaps even subscribe to, your point of view.

I also have doubts on The Brothers Karamazov. Why can it be labeled as conservative? Isn't it almost blasphemous in some parts? It is a very vast, philosophical work which deals with many issues - there's faith, yes, but there's also doubt, folly, lust, hate... arguably Alexei is the best character in the novel, but can we really say that as a work, it promotes conservative, Christian ideas? In all his folly, Ivan's arguments do make sense, sometimes!

Thank you in advance if you will take the time to explain to me (and to everyone else who has doubts) your point of view. Everyone has a different brain and a different way of using it, and what seems "self-evident" to someone may seem untrue to someone else. Sharing ideas in a completely relaxed way, without any bias or hostility, is a very good way to progress on the path to truth! --MarcoT2 14:29, 26 July 2010 (EDT)

The Day of the Jackal

I'm really not sure about this one. It's a great read, but I'm not sure about how a novel about a promiscuous mercenary assassin trying to kill a decorated war hero is a conservative novel. I could be wrong, but I always found it a fairly subversive book. --SamCoulter 23:02, 21 September 2011 (EDT)

Warrior Cats

I'm not sure if this counts as debatable or even liberal, but I'd like to hear what you think.

Warriors is a six-arc book series about four Clans of feral cats fighting for survival. The series starts out pretty neutral, one example being main character Rusty/Firestar questioning why the Clans don't just become one big Clan before ultimately respecting Clan traditions. The earlier books also say that even if the Clans are staying separate, they can still come together to fight whatever threatens all the Clans, including Scourge and his BloodClan cats as well as the Dark Forest (the cat version of hell). Family is portrayed positively in Firestar agreeing to adopt his sister's firstborn kitten Cloudtail so that he can be a warrior like him.

However, it's become more liberal in later books, encouraging more open borders (as RiverClan leader Mistystar is seen as senile for closing her Clan's borders and looking after her own cats first) and moral relativism. It also portrays StarClan (the cat version of heaven) as manipulative fools when they previously stated that they only watched over the Clans and guide them every now and then. Anarchy is seen as good in the form of Needletail, who refuses to take responsibility for helping the sixth arc's villain, Darktail, take control of ShadowClan due to resentment towards their leader Rowanstar. Finally, the more conservative cats are portrayed as paranoid, archaic, and narrow-minded while the more liberal cats are portrayed as heroic. --The Autistic Patriot (talk) 09:29, 8 March 2019 (EST)