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Debate: Have the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen? Did Christ who cannot lie fail to fulfill his promise? (view source)

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*'''Galatians 1:8''' - ''if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.''

*'''2 Corinthians 11:3-4''' - ''But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh '''preacheth another Jesus''', whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, '''or another gospel''', which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him'' (''ye might well bear with him'' is explained in verse 19, ''For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.'') The Roman church preaches that the foundation stone laid in Zion is Peter, not Jesus and another gospel of salvation by works. </ref>

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~~The Roman Catholic catechism teaches that the Holy Spirit is given through water baptism.~~

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*'''CCC 1999''' - “infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism.”

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*'''Isaiah 28:14''' - '' '''we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves'''

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~~====Disruptive spamfest by Antagonists====~~

:::[[Falsehood|False]]. CCC 2010: "''no one can merit the initial grace'' of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion." (CCC 1996-2011) Your "water baptism" comment is a [[misrepresentation]], by carefully omitting an important teaching of the Bible. In '''Acts 19:1-6''' Paul explained why John's water baptism was insufficient (vv.4-5). John's baptism, though it required repentance, yet looked '''''forward''''' to the coming of the One for whom John was a forerunner (Jesus). '''Jesus had not yet died''' when John baptized people. His was a baptism of '''''preparation''''' looking forward to Jesus' death. "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard ''this'', they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This shows that John's water baptism unto repentance cannot be the water baptism which Jesus commanded people to receive under the gospel (Matthew 28:19). Christians are baptized into his death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12) "by the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26). John's disciples were not. So then they were baptized by Paul.<ref>See https://www.gospelway.com/topics/salvation/baptism-john.php The Baptism of John the Baptist, David E. Pratte. See also ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'' CCC 1213-1228.</ref> --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 06:36, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

::::We've been over this a dozen times. The gospel was preached to Israel in the wilderness. King David had the Holy Spirit. [[Job]] was "perfect and upright." Zacharias and Elisabeth were both "righteous before God", as was [[Abel]]. Simeon (Luke 2:25) was "just and devout". In all these cases '''Jesus had not yet died''' either. There is only one way a sinner can be declared righteous before God.<ref>Question:

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::::Independent Skeptic says, '''"This shows that John's water baptism unto repentance cannot be the water baptism which Jesus commanded people to receive"''' Bingo! Now reconcile what you just posted with Roman Catholic doctrine and all the drivel in the [[Infant baptism]] page. Hint: Jesus didn't command "water baptism". [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]] 09:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

:::::::Yes He did! John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born [''regenerated''] of '''water and ''of'' the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'''." "Regenerate" in John 3:3-5 is the Greek '''γεννηθή''' ''gennethe''. The words '''γεννηθή''' ''gennethe'' and '''γεννηθήναι''' ''gennethenai'' in the Greek New Testament text of John 3:3-5 mean to ''procreate, regenerate, bear, beget, be born, conceive'', a variation of '''γένος''' ''genos'', meaning ''born, offspring, generation, stock''.<ref>See Strong's numbers [http://biblehub.com/greek/1078.htm 1078], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1079.htm 1079], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1080.htm 1080], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1081.htm 1081], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1083.htm 1083], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1084.htm 1084], [http://biblehub.com/greek/1085.htm 1085].</ref> This "born" (as being literally "generated/regenerated") is the ordinary word "born" also used in

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:::::::'''Matthew''' 1:16; 2:1, 4; 11:11; 19:12; 26:24; '''Mark''' 14:21; '''Luke''' 1:35; 7:28; '''John''' 1:13; 3:3-8; 8:41: 9:2, 19-20, 32, 34; 16:21; 18:37; '''Acts''' 2:8; 7:20; 18:2, 24; 22:3, 28; '''Romans''' 9:11; '''1 Corinthians''' 15:8; '''Galatians''' 4:23, 29; '''Hebrews''' 11:23; '''1 John''' 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18. "Regenerated" is also found as "born again" '''άναγεγεννηθήναι''' ''anagegennethenai'' in 1 Peter 1:23, "Being born again (regenerated), not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." <ref>See Strong's number [http://biblehub.com/greek/313.htm ''313'' '''άναγεγεννάω''' ''anagegennao'' to ''beget'', or ''bear'' (again).]</ref> Compare [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-13.htm the interlinear text of John 1:13], [http://biblehub.com/john/1-13.htm multiple versions of John 1:13], [http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/1-13.htm and multiple commentaries on John 1:13]. This "word" of God in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+1%3A23&version=RSVCE 1 Peter 1:23] is a direct reference to the doctrine of [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A25-26&version=RSVCE Ephesians 5:25-26], where Paul says,

:::::::"Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word." See also [http://biblehub.com/interlinear/titus/3-5.htm interlinear text of Titus 3:5] [http://biblehub.com/titus/3-5.htm multiple versions of Titus 3:5] and [http://biblehub.com/commentaries/titus/3-5.htm multiple commentaries on Titus 3:5].

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:::::::"he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the '''''washing'' of regeneration''' and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior". The Greek word for "washing" in this text means "water-washing"—"he saved us...by the water-washing of regeneration". The word of God is the word spoken simultaneously with the action of pouring, immersing or sprinkling of water in the [[sacrament]] of [[baptism]] to wash away all sins,<ref>See [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+22%3A16&version=RSVCE Acts 22:16]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A26&version=RSVCE Ephesians 5:26].</ref> "I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen." (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16.) This is "baptismal regeneration"~~. It is Jesus Himself Who baptizes through the ministry of the members of His Own Body the Church in which He dwells always together with the Holy Spirit of truth with us foe ever~~. Not one of those who claim to have been baptized in the Spirit by faith alone has ever been told at the decisive moment they accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" before they were plunged into water as their testimony of salvation (''especially at the moment when they accepted Him sitting in the pew or decided to accept him by faith when they were alone~~''—''they certainly did not hear the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", at that moment of decision~~''). So from the whole context of the scriptures we can '''know''' that Jesus commanded water baptism. The Catholic doctrine of water baptism is biblical. It's the doctrine of the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, led into all the truth for ever by the Spirit of truth with us for ever. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 13:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

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:::::::"he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the '''''washing'' of regeneration''' and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior". The Greek word for "washing" in this text means "water-washing"—"he saved us...by the water-washing of regeneration". The word of God is the word spoken simultaneously with the action of pouring, immersing or sprinkling of water in the [[sacrament]] of [[baptism]] to wash away all sins,<ref>See [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+22%3A16&version=RSVCE Acts 22:16]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A26&version=RSVCE Ephesians 5:26].</ref> "I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen." (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:16.) This is "baptismal regeneration". Not one of those who claim to have been baptized in the Spirit by faith alone has ever been told at the decisive moment they accepted Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" before they were plunged into water as their testimony of salvation (''especially at the moment when they accepted Him sitting in the pew or decided to accept him by faith when they were alone''). So from the whole context of the scriptures we can '''know''' that Jesus commanded water baptism. The Catholic doctrine of water baptism is biblical. It's the doctrine of the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, led into all the truth for ever by the Spirit of truth with us for ever. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 13:07, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

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::::::::You are spamming; read the rule posted above: "providing citations to scripture without providing the actual scripture and/or its relevant context to this Debate". We are obviously talking about two different baptisms, water baptism and spirit baptism. You cannot expect readers to go through the dozens of scripture citations you provided to inspect each one to see if you are referring to water baptism or spirit baptism. Please remove the spam or a Sysop/Moderator will do it. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]] 13:15, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

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:::::On a side point, you appear to be misreading Acts 19:2 with this statement, "Christians are baptized into his death, burial, and resurrection...John's disciples were not." No, John's baptism is with water, Jesus' baptism is with the Holy Spirit. John says, "I baptize with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit." All of this runs contrary to Roman Catholic doctrine on water baptism, salvation, and receiving the Holy Spirit. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]] 09:16, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

::::<s>You are trolling again.</s> Below you state salvation is earned or merited, which is exactly what catechism teaches. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]][[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]] 09:42, 29 August 2020 (EDT)

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The Roman Catholic catechism teaches that the Holy Spirit is given through water baptism.

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*'''CCC 1999''' - “infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism.”

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*'''Isaiah 28:14''' - '' '''we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves'''

===The Christian is not under law===

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*'''1 Peter 5:2-3''' - ''Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, '''not by constraint, but willingly'''; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; '''Neither as being lords''' over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.''<ref>https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%205:2-3</ref>

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~~====Antagonists response====~~

:::The Apostle Peter also commanded the flock of Christ to honor the [[Paganism|pagan emperor]] ('''[[Nero]]''' at the time of writing).

:::*'''1 Peter 2:17''' - ''Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. '''Honor the emperor'''.''<ref>https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter%202:17</ref>

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:*'''CCC 1498''' - "Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory."

:*'''CCC 1472''' - "...On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin..."

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~~====Antagonists response====~~

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::::See the article [[Great Apostasy]]. The Protestant Reformers disobeyed, went out, and preached another gospel than the one they had received in the church, perverting the gospel of Christ. They proclaimed that the gates of hell had long prevailed against the Church and that the Holy Spirit had utterly departed from the Church, and that the [[Beasts of Revelation|Beast]] [[Antichrist]] and [[Satan]] together ruled as the spirit of the Church turning the Church into the [[Whore of Babylon]]. The very desire to live a good life by humbly receiving the sacraments of grace in worship and doing good works pleasing to God—''justice, mercy''—was condemned as [[Blasphemy|blasphemous]] [[Piety|impiety]] and bondage to the law, meriting only the curse of God, and more dangerous than sin. --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 17:49, 28 August 2020 (EDT)

::::Martin Luther wrote this about a good life manifested by good works:{{quotation|There is no more dangerous, more pernicious scandal than a good life exteriorly manifested by good works. Those pious souls who do good to gain the Kingdom of Heaven not only will never succeed, but they must even be reckoned among the impious; and it is more important to guard them against good works than against sin. —Works of Luther, Wittenberg, Vol. VI, 160 <ref>[http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/07/luther-said-doing-good-is-more.html Luther Said: Doing Good Is More Dangerous Than Sinning - Beggars All: Reformation & Apologetics (beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com)]</ref>}}{{quotation|'''No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.''' - Martin Luther ''Letter to Melancthon'', 13.<ref>Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99 http://www.earlychurchofjesus.org/martin_luther.htm</ref>}}

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==See also==

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*[[Debate Revision: Have the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen? Did Christ who cannot lie fail to fulfill his promise?]]

*[[Debate:Does the Catholic Church have the biblical authority of Christ Himself to preach and to teach the truth forever?]]

*[[Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?]]

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