Block, Siteadmin, SkipCaptcha, Upload, Automoderated users, delete, edit, move, nsTeam2RO, nsTeam2RW, nsTeam2_talkRO, nsTeam2_talkRW, protect, rollback, Administrators, template
293,634
edits
Changes
Debate: Have the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen? Did Christ who cannot lie fail to fulfill his promise? (view source)
Revision as of 06:51, September 4, 2020
, 06:51, September 4, 2020→Un-ask the debate question/category error
[[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Wednesday, 22:16, 26 August 2020 (EDT)
[[User:VargasMilan|VargasMilan]] ([[User talk:VargasMilan|talk]]) Wednesday, 22:16, 26 August 2020 (EDT)
==Extended debate==
I will delete all content from [my talk] page 2 PM CDT Thursday, 3 September 2020, as I already said. If anyone wants to keep what's been posted, then you'd better make a copy for your own page—or consult [View history] [my talk] page to read previous versions.
I check our own emails almost daily and delete all junk mail. I'll check [my talk] page same time and immediately purge all content. Dataclarifier (Michael Paul Heart) and I (Delwayne Royd Mullin) refuse to participate any more in Conservapedia. We both regard the contentious issue over content of '''Debate: Have the gates of hell...''' as irrelevant, redundant, useless and futile. I've said all I intend to say. Immediately after checking our email, I'll check [my talk] Talk page.
'''RobSmith's postings on [my talk] page will be nuked on sight without reading. He and VargasMilan and Shobson20.''' Other users posting on [my talk] page will be immediately considered, read, and then deleted, once a day, or whenever we get around to it. Don't expect a response.
If '''any''' sysop/administrator wants to block our accounts [Dataclarifier, IndependentSkeptic], '''''go ahead''''', even to "eternal". If any sysop/admistrator wants to permanently lock [my talk] page after I delete all its content tomorrow, to prevent it from being used as a mailbox, '''''go ahead'''''. In either or both cases, Dataclarifier and I totally agree. '''''Go ahead.''''' We don't care. We're not going to contribute anything anymore to Conservapedia. We just don't want to post any further material to be any more a [[Specious reasoning|specious]] pretext for RobSmith and anyone else eagerly and interminably posting more continued [[Blasphemy|blasphemous]] [[libel]] and [[Conservapedia:Guidelines#Civility|incivility]] against the Church{{quotation|'''''reliably identified''''' by continuous and unbroken [[Apostolic succession]] as the original Church Jesus built on a rock, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail, the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, the temple and dwelling place of God in the Spirit of truth with us for ever leading into all the truth, built upon the apostles and prophets of God, whose appointed elders and shepherds as guardians and leaders watching over our souls having authority established by God, '''''whom the Bible commands us to obey as the ambassadors of Christ, to whom God has entrusted the message of reconciliation, God Himself speaking by them''''', and antichrists disobeyed, ignorant and unstable, twisting the scriptures to their own destruction, by private interpretation, deceitfully handling the word of God, and went out, and drew disciples after them, leading them astray from the truth with specious arguments, peddlers of the word of God, preaching another gospel and another Jesus not preached by the apostles, a Jesus who either lied or was unable to keep his word.}} --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 10:26, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:*Gal. 3:10 - ''All who rely on works of the law are under a curse.'' Repent! [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 15:06, 2 September 2020 (EDT
::*Prov. 28:9 - ''He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law [the word of the Lord], even his prayer ''shall be'' '''abomination'''.''
::*John 12:48 - ''He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.''
::*John 14:21,24 ''21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.'' '''Repent!''' --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 16:13, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::The Law and the Word are two different things; ''faith cometh by hearing''; ''ye are under grace and not under law''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:21, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::*1 John 5:2-3 - ''2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.'' --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 16:30, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::*Romans 3:21 - ''now the righteousness of God has been manifested '''apart from the law'''
:::*John 1:14 - '' The Word was made flesh''
:::*John 6:63 - ''These words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.''
::::[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup>
:::*Romans 8:3 - ''what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did''
::Nobody disputes ''the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good'' (Romans 7:12); the bottomline is, the law is not your ticket to [[salvation]]. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:38, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::Works can't get you there. God can't be bribed. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 16:42, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::*Matthew 7:21-23 - ''21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that '''doeth the will of my Father''' which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.''
:::*Romans 2:6-12 - ''6 Who will render to '''every man''' according to his '''deeds''': 7 To them who by patient continuance in '''well-doing''' seek for glory and honour and immortality, '''eternal life''': 8 But unto them that are '''contentious, and do not obey the truth''', but obey unrighteousness, '''indignation and wrath''', 9 '''Tribulation and anguish''', upon '''every soul of man''' that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to '''every man''' that '''worketh good''', to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned '''without law''' shall also '''perish without law''': and as many as have sinned '''in the law''' shall be '''judged''' by the law.'' --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 16:49, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::*John 8:43,47 - ''43 Why do ye not understand my speech? ''even'' because ye cannot hear my word. 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear ''them'' not, because ye are not of God.'' --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 16:54, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::*Ephesians 2:10 - ''For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto '''good works''', which God hath before '''ordained that we should walk in them'''.
:::Not bribery. Obedience to the will of God, by '''doing''' the will of God by '''good works'''. Faith without works is '''dead'''. ''Ye see then how that by '''works''' a man is '''Justified''', and '''not by faith only'''''. James 2:24. --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 17:03, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::*''as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law.''
::::*''ye are not under law but under grace''
::::This is the meaning of salvation.
::::*Romans 5:9 - ''we shall be saved from wrath through him.''
::::The Christian is saved from judgement. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 17:06, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Obedience is believing what God says, not doing good works. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 17:08, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::*1 Peter 4:17 - '''For the time ''is come'' that <big>judgment must begin at the house of God</big>: and if ''it'' first ''begin'' <big>at <big>US</big></big>, what shall the end ''be'' of them that <big>obey not</big> the gospel of God?''' <br>So you better practice obedience and believe what God says in the Bible, that '''every''' Christian will be judged according to their deeds.
:::::*Revelation 22:12 - ''And behold, I come quickly; and my reward ''is'' with me, to give '''every man''' according as his '''work''' shall be.'' <br>See again Romans 2:6-11. The Word of the Lord. --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 17:24, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::''what the law was unable to do, God did''
::::*Gen. 22:8 - ''God will provide himself a lamb''
:::::[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 17:14, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::''the vessel was marred in the potter's hands; so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it ''
::::''Ye must be born from above''
::::''he is a new creature in Christ''
::::You can't make your self righteous (''your works are filthy rags''). Adam and Eve tried to clothe themselves with fig leaves, but God had to clothe them.
::::: [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 17:20, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::''He created us in Christ Jesus unto '''good works''', which God ordained before that we should walk in them''—''only those who '''do''' the will of his Father shall enter the kingdom of God'' --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 17:30, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::*Philippians 2:13 - ''For it is '''God''' which '''worketh in you''' both to will and to '''do''' of ''his'' good pleasure.'' <br>So we are not making ourselves righteous, but God in us doing his work through us is He Himself making us righteous, because we obey his will and do what he commands in us—''justice, mercy, love, keeping faith with him who calls us to the obedience of righteousness''. '''You ''blasphemously'' say that the righteous works of God done by Him in and through the willing cooperation of his people doing His good pleasure—His works (not their own)—are ''filthy rags!!'''''. Paul was talking about Pharisees, not Christians. '''The Holy Spirit is not unclean.''' That blasphemy is never forgiven. '''Matthew 12:30-34'''. --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 17:36, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::*John 15:1-2 - ''1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 '''Every branch <big>in me</big> that beareth not fruit he taketh away'''...''
::::::*John 15:4-6 - ''4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch '''cannot bear fruit of itself''', except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye ''are'' the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same '''bringeth forth much fruit''': for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast ''them'' into the fire, and they are burned.'' --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 18:04, 2 September 2020 (EDT){{quotation|'''CCC 1076''' In this age of the Church '''Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church''', in a new way appropriate to this new age. '''<big>He</big> acts through the sacraments''' in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls "the sacramental economy"; this is '''the communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits of Christ's Paschal mystery''' in the celebration of the Church's "sacramental" liturgy. <br> — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1.htm (''<small>boldface added</small>'') }}--User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 18:12, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::*Isaiah 64:6 - ''we are all as an unclean thing, and '''all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags''';''
:::::*''ye must be born again.''
::::::[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 18:13, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::::The works of God are not filthy rags. --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 18:18, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::::Ahh, here you are liftitng yourself up in [[pride]] against God. Neither you, nor the Roman church, are God. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 18:23, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::'''You have become deaf of hearing:''' I will say it again:
:::::::::*Philippians 2:13 - ''For it is '''God''' which '''worketh in you''' both to will and to '''do''' of ''his'' good pleasure.'' <br>The works of God are not filthy rags. --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 18:29, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::"Practicing obedience" is faith in God, trusting God or believing what he says. You just tossed out what God says, ''ye are under grace and not law;'' ''all who rely on law are under a curse.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 18:21, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::::So why don't you believe what God says, instead of using the Bible to contradict what God says? {{unsigned|User:IndependnetSkeptic}}
::::::::Who's contradicting the Bible, me or the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church?
{{quotebox|
*'''Galatians 3:10''' - ''all who rely on works of the law are under a curse''<ref>https://biblehub.com/galatians/3-10.htm</ref>
*'''CCC 2068''' - "The [[Council of Trent]] teaches that '''the [[Ten Commandments]] are obligatory'''
*'''1 Timothy 1:9''' - ''the law is not made for a righteous man''}}
::::::::It's actually not a contradiction. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that anyone who adheres to Catholic catechism is not righteous or saved. Salvation is now:
::::::::*'' whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me '''has''''' [present tense] ''eternal life. He '''does not come into judgment''', but has passed from death to life.'' (John 5:4)
::::::::''does not come into judgement.'' Why don't you believe what God says, instead of using the Bible to contradict what God says in this very thread? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:45, 3 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::::P.S. [https://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=User_talk:IndependentSkeptic&diff=prev&oldid=1682049 You just violated the Debate Rules we negotiated.] Such underhanded and deceitful tactics to pervert God's word and impugn a preacher of the gospel is not surprising for someone whom God has not declared righteous. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 06:32, 3 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::::*Isaiah 5:20-21 - ''20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 20 Woe unto ''them that are'' wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!''
:::::::You don't believe what God says about bearing fruit, and the necessity of His deeds done by Him through us who believe him and seek to do His Will. All the scriptures I cited above. You don't believe the Bible. You are disobedient to the word of the Lord. --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 18:26, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::You sound like a [[Cafeteria Christian]], tossing out ''ye are not under law but under grace''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 18:39, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::I/S says, "You blasphemously say that the righteous works of God done by Him in and through the willing cooperation of his people doing His good pleasure—His works (not their own)—are filthy rags!!"
::::::CCC 1076 says, "Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church...He acts through the sacraments ..."
::::::*Isiah 29:15 - ''You have turned things upside down, '''as if the potter were regarded as clay.'''''
:::::::[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 18:33, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::::*Philippians 2:13 - For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.<br>The works of God are not filthy rags. --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 18:39, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::That still doesn't make you God; it is fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy, ''and greater works than these'' the fact that God saved another sinner. It is God's doing, not yours or the church's. Give glory to God.
::::::::::''I can of my own self do nothing.''
::::::::::''for by grace are ye saved through faith....not of works''.
::::::::::''Wherein is boasting?'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 18:44, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::''Your glorying is not good.'' [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 18:48, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::::*1 Corinthians 12:6,27 - ''6 and there are varieties of '''working''', but it is the same '''God''' who inspires them all in every one. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.'' <br> You are deaf to the word of God. You do not hear it. How often do you have to hear Philippians 2:13 before you understand what He is saying: "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." ''And'' "''Why do ye not understand my speech? ''even'' because ye cannot hear my word. He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear ''them'' not, because ye are not of God.''" --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 19:04, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::::::How long are you going to reject the grace of God and bring yourself under bondage again to law, judgement, and wrath?
::::::::::Gal. 5:4 - ''whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace''
::::::::::''all under law are under a curse''
::::::::::''by grace are ye saved''
::::::::::Fine <shakes dust from his shoes>. You have chosen law over grace, a curse over salvation. Nuff said. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 19:19, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
Being under grace imposes the obligation to do good. See an excellent analysis of RobSmith's fundamental error in this page from the '''''Forerunner Commentary''''', John W. Ritenbaugh together with other contributors, '''Bible Tools: Topical: What The Bible Says About Obligation''' https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/126/Obligation.htm <br>Both Dataclarifier and I were absolutely delighted with it. The Forerunner Commentary exists online (exclusively) at BibleTools.org. The Forerunner Commentary is comprised of material taken from articles, Bible studies, booklets, and sermons produced by ''the Church of the Great God (C.G.G.)'' since 1992. It's not Catholic, but the biblical doctrine of the ''Forerunner Commentary'' bears a strong likeness to the teaching of the [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a1.htm#1950 ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'' 1950-1986 '''The Moral Law''']. They are not far from the kingdom of God. Compare also [http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a3.htm#2030 ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'' 2030-2051 '''The Church, Mother and Teacher''']. God forbid that we should not tell you the truth of the Gospel. <br> --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 19:44, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:*'''1 Timothy 1:9''' - ''the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners''
:If you are under law, you are without Christ. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:32, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::You obviously didn't read the above commentary, "What the Bible says about Obligation". The [[Prejudice|avoidance]] that is [[Denial]]: [[Confirmation bias]] and [[Fallacy of invincible ignorance]], ''especially'' [[Damning the Alternatives]]. It only proves that you are not interested in the truth. ''Whassamatter? Afraid of being convicted of error?'' ''''S'Too much!''' --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 20:42, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:I have a message from God for both you and Dataclarifier:
:*'''2 Timothy 3:7''' - ''Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.''
::[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 20:51, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::''[[Non sequitur]]'' The whole context of 2 Timothy 3:1-9 shows that verse 7 is about "silly women" loaded with a burden of sins, led by various lusts of bodily passions and emotions, who will listen to anybody, disciples of men who oppose the truth, disobedient to parents, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, like the Egyptian sorcerers Jannes and Jambres who opposed Moses, not the leaders we are commanded to obey. <br>We both—"''both you and Dataclarifier''"—we both came to the knowledge of the truth by seeing clearly what the Bible teaches about the Catholic Church. It's because we studied the Bible and read actual Catholic doctrine for comparison that we know Catholicism is the fullness of the truth of the Christian Gospel of Salvation in Christ alone through his body the Church and that it is the most biblical Church on the face of the earth. Our search is ended. Now we live it. Our souls have found rest. And we shall never cease proclaiming the truth of God. We've done that here. Others will too. So we will not have to any more on Conservapedia. We're getting off. We totally entrust you to God. He'll deal with you. In surprising ways. ''Better believe it!'' God bless. --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 21:06, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::You have some serious problematic reading comprehension skills. The passage says '''''you''''' are the type who creep into houses and lead captive silly women laden with sins away. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 07:31, 3 September 2020 (EDT)
::::We've been over this. Salvation is in Christ, not in a church or church membership. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 21:35, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::God lives and dwells and works in and through the Catholic Church. Yes there are weeds among the wheat. But God remains holy, and he has sanctified his church, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word, making her holy and without blemish, and those who are united to him by his grace he makes partakers of his own divine nature, making them holy. Those who fall back into sin have forgotten their cleansing and have fallen away from grace. Ephesians 5:21-27; 2 Peter 1:3-11. --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 21:49, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::If you're declared righteous, you're without sin. If you're under law, you're without Christ. Again, not rocket science. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 22:14, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::::It's possible after being declared righteous by faith to fall away from being declared righteous. <br> See [https://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-17.htm '''2 Peter 3:17 and parallel passages of similar scripture.'''], including [https://biblehub.com/2_peter/2-20.htm '''2 Peter 2:20'''] and [https://biblehub.com/revelation/2-5.htm '''Revelation 2:5''' "Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first."] <br> ''Or maybe you choose not to read these parts of the Bible.'' --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 23:05, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
::::::::Did Solomon fall away and be damned? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 23:18, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::What does the scripture say? How do you read it? <br>I believe 1 Kings 11:9-11 "''Torn away''". --User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 23:27, 2 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::::::Must be a typo. It says ''turn away''. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 07:37, 3 September 2020 (EDT)
<-----
:It's a very interesting question, we could probably do a whole page on it. And I believe God wants the serious Bible student to study this question, comparing scripture with scripture. There are numerous scriptures to consider. [http://www.prca.org/current/Doctrine/Volume%2011/News-K-14.htm#Was_Solomon_Saved_] Let's take for a moment all of 1 Kings chapter 11 and all of 1 Corinthians chapter 3; (for this, you'd have to lay aside your thinking on 1 Corinthians 3:15). Solomon built the temple. Now consider this excerpt from 1 Corinthians 3:
:{{quotebox|12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: '''but he himself shall be saved;''' yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 '''If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;''' for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, '''The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.''' 21 '''Therefore let no man glory in men.'''''}}
:Vanity of vanities. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I boldened a few sections here, but there's much more. And we also have to consider ''I will remember their sins no more'' (Hebrews 8:12, 10:17), yet like Manasseh, Solomon's sins are embalmed into the bible.
:Now, I'm not ready to offer a definitive conclusion yet as to whether Solomon was saved. But in studying this brief excerpt I superficially find two weaknesses in Roman Catholic doctrine: (1) a misunderstanding of 1 Corinthians 3:15 which we've addressed in debates elsewhere, and (2) verse 21 above. There seems to be a whole lot of ''glorying in men'' in Roman Catholic doctrine, beginning with the claim that Mary is a "Mediatrix" given the fact that we are sexless in the resurrection, and much of the glorying in men you posted right here in this discussion thread.
:But let's not get sidetracked from the main question. I'm saying you might have reconsider what ''he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire'' means using the internal consistencies of the bible without any external sources, such as catechism. (At the same time, any scripture may have more than one application, so this does not dismiss your understanding of Purgatory completely, but it should open your eyes to the fact that there are other internal applications of ''he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire'' and your understanding is of 1 Cor. 3:15 is not definitive.)
:We're only scratching the surface here of an important question that I believe God wants any serious bible student to study. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 04:52, 3 September 2020 (EDT)
:And a brief after thought about glorying in men: ''In every house there are two kinds of vessels, vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor''. Translation: Two kinds of vessels, dinner plates and piss pots. Maybe that's all Solomon was, a piss pot. The more important question is, What do you want to be in the Lord's House, a vessel of honor or vessel of dishoner? It's a choice each individual believer has to make., [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q]]</sup> 05:09, 3 September 2020 (EDT)
::Quote: "'''''Such underhanded and deceitful tactics to pervert God's word and impugn a preacher of the gospel'''''". Apparently from the context, you claim or imply that you are "a preacher of the gospel", a title applied by you to yourself without having explicitly cited any recognized credentials on any page of Conservapedia (as far as I know; I haven't seen any, nor has Dataclarifier—I asked). For example, NishantXavier has said that he has seminary training. Dataclarifier has explicitly stated that he is not a Catholic apologist, only a "Bible apologist", as an informed and believing Bible Christian ,"who happens to be Catholic". <br> So we ask you RobSmith: Have you graduated from a seminary? Have you been ordained? Have you submitted yourself to the laying on of a bishop's hands or the hands of the presbytery or the hands of accredited apostles? (I'm looking at 2 Timothy 1:6; Acts 13:1-3; Acts 14:23; 1 Corinthians 9:14.) Even Paul, as Saul of Tarsus, was already an ordained and accredited rabbi with authority to preach in the synagogues of the Jews, even Paul himself, who was appointed an apostle by Christ Himself on the road to Damascus, was formally ordained by the laying on of the hands of the prophets and teachers when they were worshiping the Lord and fasting before he was "sent forth" with Barnabas. That tradition of worship and fasting and laying on of hands to ordain priests as acknowledged "preachers of the gospel" has continued from the time of the apostles to the present day by churches claiming [[apostolic succession]].
::So we ask:
::*Are you acknowledged by formally ordained and accredited preachers of the gospel as an officially accredited and acknowledged preacher of the gospel in any Christian church or sect or denomination?
::*Are you salaried by any congregation of the people of God as an acknowledged preacher of the gospel?
::'''Or''' are you self-appointed without "the laying on of the hands of the elders"? <br>You have never directly said one way or the other, at least not on any of the Debate pages or Debate Talk pages. Declare yourself. What are your credentials? It's enough to say "yes" I was formally and officially ordained a preacher of the gospel, or "no" I haven't been ordained a preacher of the gospel.<br>--User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk) 10:16, 3 September 2020 (EDT)
:'''Mark 16:15''' - ''And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.''
::User:RobSmith|RobS<sup>User talk:RobSmith|Trump 2Q2Q</sup> 11:56, 3 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Evasive refusal to answer the question "Are you an authentically accredited ordained preacher of the gospel?" Apparently not. His postings are only his own private interpretations of scripture, putting his own spin on passages of the Bible as "proofs" of [[Confirmation bias]], just to make the Bible support his points by ignoring the context of the whole of the Bible evidence. Witnessing to the gospel of Christ is the duty of every Christian according to their ability. A preacher of the gospel is an accredited ordained evangelist or pastor of a church.<br>--User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic (User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk) 12:16, 3 September 2020 (EDT)
==See also==
==See also==