Talk:Evolutionism

Talk:Evolutionism/Archive 1

Code tags

I've been wondering for a long time, is there any particular reason this artice uses <code> tags to produce monospaced text? Philip J. Rayment 02:10, 31 October 2007 (EDT)

'Weak Atheism'

Philip, you are obviously not familiar with 'Weak Atheism'. Unlike 'Strong Atheism', which makes a positive statement about the non-existence of God, regardless of the evidence, this states that there is probably no God as there is no objective proof of God. The 'world view' is dependant on the evidence, or lack of evidence, as is the science, so I fail to see how, in this case, the 'science is based on the world view', as you altered it to say. You appear to believe that the only difference between 'Strong Atheism' and 'Weak Atheism' is the strength of the assertion that there is no God, whether this fits in with the evidence or not. This is not the case. Urushnor 11:58, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

The article already said "Thus science is done on the basis of there being no God". Now, they may not hold the no-god view strongly, but if the science is done on the basis of there being no God, then it is being done on the basis of naturalism, just as for strong atheism, which means that the worldview is the basis for the science. Philip J. Rayment 11:52, 19 April 2008 (EDT)

And the reason that the science is done on the basis of there being no God is there is no solid, objective proof that there is a God, and, thus, to follow proper scientific procedures and processes, you cannot base anything on the idea there is a God until you prove there is a God. Thus, 'weak atheism' and science follow exactly the same principles and procedures. If you come with solid, objective proof of God, then you can start doing science on the basis of that 'fact', and most 'weak atheists' wouldn't be atheists of any kind any more. Urushnor 13:04, 19 April 2008 (EDT)

If there is no proof of a God, and no proof of no God, why is "no God" the default option? [User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 10:54, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Because you cannot do any proper science on the basis of an unproven assumption. In this case, in order to base anything on the idea that 'God did it', basically, you have to assume that God actually exists. Urushnor 12:30, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

This is nonsense. All science is done on the basis of unproven assumptions, such as the assumption that the laws of physics are constant, ...

Because all evidence, observation and experimentation to date suggests they are. Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

That they are constant started as an assumption, and although observations are consistent with that, it is not provable, and it remains an assumption. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

...the assumption that we can trust our senses in doing experiments ... Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Because of a distinct lack of evidence that we can't. Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

A lack of evidence is not evidence, and if our senses were playing tricks on us, how could we tell? Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

...and so forth. Your second sentence is wrong. You don't have to accept that God exists before you are able to conclude that God was responsible. All you have to accept is the possibility that God actually exists, and there is nothing unscientific in accepting that possibility. Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

In the complete absence of evidence of this, yes there is, unless you present it as a pure conjecture (in colloquial terms, that would be 'a wild-ass guess'). Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

No, there is not. You are ruling out a possibility because you believe that there is no evidence. That is putting the cart before the horse. It's like saying that there is no evidence that people lived in England prior to (say) 1000 AD (I'm being hypothetical), so therefore you can't propose that Stonehenge was built by people. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

It is rejection of that possibility that means that atheism—strong or weak—is basing its science on ideology. Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

I've kinda said this as simply as I am able, using proper English,but you still don't seem to be getting it, so I'll try putting it even simpler. Evidence = scientific. No evidence = not scientific. 'Weak atheism' = no evidence of God, so no God. Get it now? Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

No, I don't "get it". Your "no evidence of God, so no God" is like saying "No evidence = not scientific = doesn't exist". But just because there's no evidence doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Get it? Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

And why is this "proper scientific procedures and processes"? Philip J. Rayment 10:54, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Because proper science is based on evidence, not faith. Indeed, step one of the scientific process, as taught in science classes the world over is 'examine the evidence'. Urushnor 12:30, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

This is wrong for the same reason that the second part of your previous response was wrong: you don't have to accept that God exists beforehand. If the evidence points to God, why not accept that conclusion? Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

If the evidence pointed to God existing, you'd have a point. Your problem is that this is simply not the case. Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

The evidence does point to God existing. Your problem is that you have been indoctrinated into the idea that God doesn't exist so you are unaware of the evidence that He does. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

Especially given that scientific endeavour started because of a belief in God ...Philip J. Rayment 10:54, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

That's only if you define the whole of science as what most people define as 'modern science', and, even then, that statement is rather debatable, especially considering the opposition that religious authorities have had to many areas of scientific research going right back to the dawn of modern science (the article you linked to, for example, states that 'science proper' started in the 16th century, dismissing the achievements of the various ancient thinkers as being mere 'scholarship', and the first well-known conflict between modern science and religion was Galileo, who first got into trouble with the Church in the early 17th century). I would say that modern science started as a result of people wanting to know, for sure, how the world worked, rather than relying on faith that their holy texts were correct, which quickly led them into conflict with the church. Urushnor 12:30, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Ignoring your semantic quibbles about terminology, you have your history wrong, thanks to anti-Christian propaganda through the centuries. The religious authorities were very supportive of science, and the dispute with Galileo was not due to his science, but with things like personality clashes. The rest of your response was basically to offer your own subjective opinion and a straw-man argument about faith and motivation. Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

So the Church formally ordered Galileo not to hold or defend the notion of heliocentrism due to 'personailty clashes'? The Catholic Inquisition put Galileo on trial for heresy, during which the idea that the Sun was at the center of the solar system was condemned as 'formally heretical', due to 'personality clashes'? At the end of that trial, his book, 'Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems', was banned, and any and all works by him, including any as yet unwritten, were also banned, due to 'personality clashes'? A general prohibition against the publication of ANY book advocating heliocentrism went into the Index Librorum Prohibitorum due to 'personality clashes'? He remained under house arrest for the rest of his life due to 'personality clashes'? Well, all I can say is that they must have taken 'personality clashes' FAR more seriously back then than they do now. Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

I said "things like personality clashes". It was a very general, overly-simplified, reference. But apart from that, then the answers to your question are basically all "yes". See here for a detailed description. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

... and is still based on assumptions (such as an orderly universe) that only have foundation in a belief in God? Philip J. Rayment 10:54, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

The idea that someone could ONLY believe in an orderly universe due to a belief in God shows a staggering narrow-mindedness and ignorance of science, to put it bluntly. Many of what you appear to call 'assumptions' made by scientists about the orderly systems that are in the universe were obtained through observation, examination of evidence and experimentation. Urushnor 12:30, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Despite your opinions, the documented facts of history are that science (or "modern science" if you prefer) began because of the Christian worldview of an orderly universe created by an unchanging God. Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Nope, that's what your interpretation of the documented facts are. Same as what I put above for the reasons for the beginning of modern science are my interpretation. Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Your interpretation of what? No, it's not my "interpretation". I provided a link above with more information. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

Science assumes that the laws of physics, for example, apply throughout the universe: scientists have not gone throughout the universe to check that assumption. Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

But they have made experiments and observations that prove that they are constant in every situation that exists naturally, or has been able to be manufactured, to date, here on Earth, and there is no evidence whatsoever that anywhere else is sufficiently different that the laws of physics would be, for some reason, invalid. Plus, of course, one of the laws of physics actually indicates that nothing that actually has any mass can go faster than the speed of light. This means it would take at least several billion years to do as you suggest. Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Again, a lack of evidence is not evidence. True, it would take an awful long time to check: that only serves to show that it must remain an assumption. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

It also assumes that the laws of physics have applied for all time: ...Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Actually, it doesn't. It is generally believed by physicists (though this is really a hypothesis, at the moment), that, at the beginning of the universe, the Big Bang, all physical laws and rules basically didn't apply. Indeed, it is commonly stated that the question, 'what came before the Big Bang?' is nonsensical, because, in the Big Bang, time, basically, did not exist (though there are a couple of hypotheses that actually challenge that). Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Actually, the exception you cite doesn't disprove my assertion. If you want me to be more precise, science assumes that the laws of physics have applied for all time since a few microseconds after the hypothesised Big Bang. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

...scientists have not gone back into the past to check that. Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Mainly because the laws of physics indicate this is impossible. Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Again, this only serves to show why it must remain an assumption. I wasn't criticising them for not checking; I was pointing out that it can't be checked, and therefore remains an assumption. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

It also assumes that those same laws will apply into the future, so when they build bridges, etc., they use the laws that apply today to calculate required strengths and stresses and assume that they will continue to apply tomorrow. Clearly that is not "observation". Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

No, it is logical extrapolation from observed evidence. For example, from repeatedly observing that the force of Earth's gravity does not radically change from one day to the next, we know that it is incredibly unlikely that we are going to wake up tomorrow and find gravity has trebled, so we need to build that bridge three times as strong. Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

An extrapolation is an assumption, or based on one. That is, we consider it safe to extrapolate because we have this assumption. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

No, that atheists choose to take a naturalistic approach means that they are basing their science on their ideology. Philip J. Rayment 10:54, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Again, you show you are not familiar with 'weak atheism'. 'Weak atheists' are atheists due to a lack of evidence in God. It is the evidence, or lack of it, that has persuaded them in this, not, as you stubbornly continue to state, the other way around. Urushnor 12:30, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

'Weak atheists' are atheists because they ignore or are unfamiliar with or reject the evidence for God—there is no shortage of evidence—and therefore adopt a position of naturalism, basing their science on that ideology. Philip J. Rayment 11:46, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Really? I trust you will make the most important event in the history of the world happen, then, by conclusively and objectively proving that God actually exists? Bear in mind, of course, that any evidence that is dependant on the notion that God actually exists would be circular reasoning. Urushnor 15:15, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Much of your argument in your latest post has been that believing in the constancy of the laws of physics is reasonable, not that it's been proved. Yet now you switch standards to demand proof (for God), and for good measure throw in a demand that I don't use what is actually a typical atheistic straw-man argument. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

I believe you are making a common mistake in arguments of this sort. Please find above where Philip said there was a proof for God... Evidence and proof are not interchangeable words. Learn together 15:48, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Well, if there isn't clear, undeniable proof of God, that kinda destroys his whole argument that it is basically impossible for a 'weak atheist' to be an atheist due to the evidence (or, rather, lack of it), rather than an underlying world view. Urushnor 19:33, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

No, it doesn't destroy my argument at all. See also the parts about proof and evidence at Essay: Accuracy vs. neutrality on Conservapedia. Philip J. Rayment 08:58, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

(Unindent) So, to summarise what appears to be your entire argument, what you are basically saying is that you are free to propose anything you like, and, if people cannot definitively prove you wrong, that is a solid scientific theory. OK, I'll do this myself. The universe was created by an invisible pink unicorn which cannot be seen or detected by any known method. Prove me wrong. Urushnor 09:22, 22 April 2008 (EDT)