Changes

To restate, '''"we can then merit for ourselves'''...'''the graces needed'''...'''for the attainment of eternal life."'''  This is a denial of salvation by grace (''grace is not grace'') and a doctrine, or another gospel of salvation by works.<ref>

To restate, '''"we can then merit for ourselves'''...'''the graces needed'''...'''for the attainment of eternal life."'''  This is a denial of salvation by grace (''grace is not grace'') and a doctrine, or another gospel of salvation by works.<ref>

*'''Galatians 1:8''' - ''if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.''

*'''Galatians 1:8''' - ''if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.''

*'''2 Corinthians 11:304''' - ''But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.  For if he that cometh '''preacheth another Jesus''', whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, '''or another gospel''', which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.''<br>The Roman church preaches that the foundation stone laid in Zion is Peter, not Jesus.</ref>

*'''2 Corinthians 11:304''' - ''But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.  For if he that cometh '''preacheth another Jesus''', whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, '''or another gospel''', which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.''<br>The Roman church preaches that the foundation stone laid in Zion is Peter, not Jesus and another gospel of salvation by works.</ref>

:::[[Falsehood|False]]. CCC 2010: "''no one can merit the initial grace'' of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion." (CCC 1996-2011)<br>Your "water baptism" comment is a [[misrepresentation]], by carefully omitting an important teaching of the Bible. In '''Acts 19:1-6''' Paul explained why John's water baptism was insufficient (vv.4-5). John's baptism, though it required repentance, yet looked '''''forward''''' to the coming of the One for whom John was a forerunner (Jesus). '''Jesus had not yet died''' when John baptized people. His was a baptism of '''''preparation''''' looking forward to Jesus' death. "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard ''this'', they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This shows that John's water baptism unto repentance cannot be the water baptism which Jesus commanded people to receive under the gospel (Matthew 28:19). Christians are baptized into his death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12) "by the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26). John's disciples were not. So then they were baptized by Paul.<ref>See https://www.gospelway.com/topics/salvation/baptism-john.php The Baptism of John the Baptist, David E. Pratte. <br> See also ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'' CCC 1213-1228.</ref> --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 06:36, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

:::[[Falsehood|False]]. CCC 2010: "''no one can merit the initial grace'' of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion." (CCC 1996-2011)<br>Your "water baptism" comment is a [[misrepresentation]], by carefully omitting an important teaching of the Bible. In '''Acts 19:1-6''' Paul explained why John's water baptism was insufficient (vv.4-5). John's baptism, though it required repentance, yet looked '''''forward''''' to the coming of the One for whom John was a forerunner (Jesus). '''Jesus had not yet died''' when John baptized people. His was a baptism of '''''preparation''''' looking forward to Jesus' death. "Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard ''this'', they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus." This shows that John's water baptism unto repentance cannot be the water baptism which Jesus commanded people to receive under the gospel (Matthew 28:19). Christians are baptized into his death, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12) "by the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26). John's disciples were not. So then they were baptized by Paul.<ref>See https://www.gospelway.com/topics/salvation/baptism-john.php The Baptism of John the Baptist, David E. Pratte. <br> See also ''Catechism of the Catholic Church'' CCC 1213-1228.</ref> --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 06:36, 30 August 2020 (EDT)

::::We've been over this a  dozen times. The gospel was preached to Israel in the wilderness. King David had the Holy Spirit. [[Job]] was "perfect and upright." Zacharias and Elisabeth were both "righteous before God", as was [[Abel]]. Simeon (Luke 2:25) was "just and devout".  In all these cases '''Jesus had not yet died''' either. There is only one way a sinner can be declared righteous before God.<ref>Question:

::::We've been over this a  dozen times. The gospel was preached to Israel in the wilderness. King David had the Holy Spirit. [[Job]] was "perfect and upright." Zacharias and Elisabeth were both "righteous before God", as was [[Abel]]. Simeon (Luke 2:25) was "just and devout".  In all these cases '''Jesus had not yet died''' either. There is only one way a sinner can be declared righteous before God.<ref>Question: