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Talk:Debate: Have the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen? Did Christ who cannot lie fail to fulfill his promise? (view source)
Revision as of 13:53, September 4, 2020
, 13:53, September 4, 2020→Misleading RobSmith commentary - 1 Kings 11:12-13 "turn away" - and "preacher of the gospel" applied to himself 2Tm 2:7; 2 Co 10:14; 2Tm 5:17-18: new section
In support of these I proposed on my talk page an additional rule:{{quotation|
In support of these I proposed on my talk page an additional rule:{{quotation|
*Original postings are to be left intact. No inserting of commentary or challenge into an original posting made by another user, and thereby disrupting, interrupting or breaking up the flow of the thought or argument of the posting. Any editor can remove it, especially the original posting editor, as an attempt at spamming or vandalism, obscuring the point of the posting. <br>—Opposing comments or challenges to particular points in the Protagonist section must be made in the Antagonist section or Open discussion section, citing the Protagonist point being challenged by the opposing or objecting user. A quote box of the point being challenged by an opposing editor is encouraged. <br>—Opposing comments or challenges to particular points in the Antagonist section must be made in the Protagonist section or Open discussion section, citing the Antagonist point being challenged by the opposing or objecting user. A quote box of the point being challenged by an opposing editor is encouraged.}}In accordance with these rules proposed by RobSmith and myself I have revised a copy of the Debate mainspace page as follows. <br>(This is not spam. RobSmith said he had unlocked the page. It's still locked. All double-brackets enclosing identifying signatures of users posting comments have been removed from the copy below to preemptively defeat a potential accusation of "forging electronic signatures" on a page the user "never posted to"—meaning this Debate talk page.) <br> --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 10:00, 1 September 2020 (EDT)
*Original postings are to be left intact. No inserting of commentary or challenge into an original posting made by another user, and thereby disrupting, interrupting or breaking up the flow of the thought or argument of the posting. Any editor can remove it, especially the original posting editor, as an attempt at spamming or vandalism, obscuring the point of the posting. <br>—Opposing comments or challenges to particular points in the Protagonist section must be made in the Antagonist section or Open discussion section, citing the Protagonist point being challenged by the opposing or objecting user. A quote box of the point being challenged by an opposing editor is encouraged. <br>—Opposing comments or challenges to particular points in the Antagonist section must be made in the Protagonist section or Open discussion section, citing the Antagonist point being challenged by the opposing or objecting user. A quote box of the point being challenged by an opposing editor is encouraged.}}In accordance with these rules proposed by RobSmith and myself I have revised a copy of the Debate mainspace page as follows. <br>(This is not spam. RobSmith said he had unlocked the page. It's still locked. All double-brackets enclosing identifying signatures of users posting comments have been removed from the copy below to preemptively defeat a potential accusation of "forging electronic signatures" on a page the user "never posted to"—meaning this Debate talk page.) <br> --[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 10:00, 1 September 2020 (EDT)
== Misleading RobSmith commentary - 1 Kings 11:12-13 "turn away" - and "preacher of the gospel" applied to himself 2Tm 2:7; 2 Co 10:14; 2Tm 5:17-18 ==
Debate page is still locked to prevent editing. Note posted at [View source] states any edit proposed should be first discussed. O.K. I propose the following edit be added right after RobSmith's partial quotation of 1 Timothy 5:18 to "''not muzzle the ox''".
:RobSmith characteristically misleads readers with comments that deflect from the point of the actual context of the reference being made, taking it out of context, in this case deflecting and implying as a mistaken typo the actual reference to 1 Kings 11:12-13 that the kingdom was "''Torn away''". It says{{quotation|Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will '''tear it out''' of the hand of your son. However I will not '''tear away''' all the kingdom; but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen.<br>—RSVCE ("'''rend away'''" KJV)}}But RobSmith says "''Torn away''" must be a typo, that it says instead "turn away". The actual text of KJV verse 9 says "''because his heart was turned from''". While there are many different versions of the Bible, '''''none of them''''' says "turn away" in 1 Kings 11:9-13.<br>And not only that, but RobSmith also claims to be a "preacher of the gospel" in accordance with Matthew 28:19, which in the context of the passage was addressed to "the eleven disciples" who were those remaining of the '''[[Twelve Apostles]]''' whom Christ had "ordained"/"appointed" and named as apostles. (Luke 22:29; 6:13). But he refuses to answer and say unequivocally that he is an accredited ordained preacher, making his claim doubtful at best. The term "preacher of the gospel" in the New Testament was applied only to those ordained as preachers of the gospel and like Paul ordained as apostles. {{quotation|'''1 Timothy 2:7''' Whereunto I am '''ordained''' a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, ''and'' lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.<br>—KJV}}{{quotation|'''2 Timothy 1:11''' Whereunto I am '''appointed''' a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.<br>—KJV}}I've already quoted other Bible passages from the New Testament about the apostles ordaining elders as preachers of the congregations in the book of Acts. Paul's additional reference to not muzzling the ox that treads out the grain is RobSmith's answer to the question "Are you an acknowledged ordained preacher?" That's RobSmith's evasive and slanted abuse of scripture ''taken entirely out of context'' as if it is referring to all of the responses of correction on these Debate pages as attempts to "muzzle" him, to "silence" him, to put forth grounds to discredit his right to insist on his own interpretations and applications of the Bible as from God having called him to preach and teach the word, quoting Matthew 28:19, and 1 Timothy 5:18 "''you shall not muzzle the ox''". <br>In fact, St. Paul was citing that passage as applied to himself regarding his rights and the rights of ordained elders (''presbyteroi''/priests) to receive a salary or monetary support ("honor") as an ordained apostle and preacher of the gospel.{{quotation|'''2 Corinthians 11:8-9''' 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages ''of them', to do you service. 9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all ''things'' I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and ''so'' will I keep ''myself''.}}{{quotation|'''1 Timothy 5:17-18''' 17 Let the '''elders that rule well''' be counted worthy of double honour, especially '''they who labour in the word and doctrine'''. 18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer ''is'' worthy of his reward.<br>—KJV}}I really think this response edit must for the sake of truth be included on the Debate page, right after RobSmith's quote of 1 Timothy 5:18a (his leaving out of v 15b), which he applies to himself in refusing to answer if he is an accredited ordained "preacher of the gospel". Given his past performance up to this day, I believe he will oppose including it, as an embarrassment to him for making false claims about himself. He has a right to '''[[Witnessing|witness]]''' to the gospel according to his own understanding, but no right to claim to be a "'''preacher of the gospel'''" if he hasn't been acknowledged by any church as "appointed and ordained" a preacher.
--[[User:IndependentSkeptic|IndependentSkeptic]] ([[User talk:IndependentSkeptic|talk]]) 09:53, 4 September 2020 (EDT)