Changes

'''Reply:''' So you're saying that, as long as you are getting paid, you should do anything for the US Military, even if it wasn't in the original job description?  OK, Ben, I know how much you like straw men, so I will give you a situation that is a little more reasonable.  Say you were my personal assistant for a week...I am paying you very well - $5000 for the whole week.  I tell you to water the garden, vaccuum the house, and take out the trash.  Its halfway through the week and everything is going great.  But then I tell you to go help my next door neighbor out.  You and I are best-friends, but you don't know this guy.  You soon learn that he is a very different boss: he yells at you a lot and makes you do the chores you hate to do.  You complain to me that this isn't what you signed up for.  But what can I do? You told me that, for $5000, you would do anything for me - I needed you to help out my neighbor.  Not my problem.  I thouroughly enjoyed narrating this story for you, and I will be shocked if you call this a straw man.  This story is very similar to what is happening to Michael New, and probably a notch lower than being forced into a foreign military, don't you think? [[User:David R|David R]]

'''Reply:''' So you're saying that, as long as you are getting paid, you should do anything for the US Military, even if it wasn't in the original job description?  OK, Ben, I know how much you like straw men, so I will give you a situation that is a little more reasonable.  Say you were my personal assistant for a week...I am paying you very well - $5000 for the whole week.  I tell you to water the garden, vaccuum the house, and take out the trash.  Its halfway through the week and everything is going great.  But then I tell you to go help my next door neighbor out.  You and I are best-friends, but you don't know this guy.  You soon learn that he is a very different boss: he yells at you a lot and makes you do the chores you hate to do.  You complain to me that this isn't what you signed up for.  But what can I do? You told me that, for $5000, you would do anything for me - I needed you to help out my neighbor.  Not my problem.  I thouroughly enjoyed narrating this story for you, and I will be shocked if you call this a straw man.  This story is very similar to what is happening to Michael New, and probably a notch lower than being forced into a foreign military, don't you think? [[User:David R|David R]]

:'''Reply''' Yes, that is indeed the case - with the proviso that members of the armed forces cannot be required to obey illegal orders (see above for the specious instance of being ordered to commit mass murder). Other than that - if you're in the military and you're given duties you didn't think you might be given, well that's a shame, but there it is. That's part of the bargain every soldier, sailor, airman and marine makes when they sign on the dotted line. Lots of kids in boot don't think they'll have to do KP or clean toilets, but it's part and parcel of military duties. There was some furor a while ago over soldiers defecting to Canada (shades of Vietnam!) because they didn't think they'd ever have to go overseas and/or go into combat. Guess what - they're wrong. Don't get me started on how is it possible for a kid to grow up in America and NOT realize that the Army, Navy, Marines or Air Force  may mean leaving home and being shot at. That's a rant for a different day and venue. [[User:Niwrad|Niwrad]] 04:08, 18 March 2007 (EDT)     

:'''Reply''' Yes, that is indeed the case - with the proviso that members of the armed forces cannot be required to obey illegal orders (see above for the specious instance of being ordered to commit mass murder). Other than that - if you're in the military and you're given duties you didn't think you might be given, well that's a shame, but there it is. That's part of the bargain every soldier, sailor, airman and marine makes when they sign on the dotted line. Lots of kids in boot don't think they'll have to do KP or clean toilets, but it's part and parcel of military duties. There was some furor a while ago over soldiers defecting to Canada (shades of Vietnam!) because they didn't think they'd ever have to go overseas and/or go into combat. Guess what - they're wrong. Don't get me started on how is it possible for a kid to grow up in America and NOT realize that the Army, Navy, Marines or Air Force  may mean leaving home and being shot at. That's a rant for a different day and venue. [[User:Niwrad|Niwrad]] 04:08, 18 March 2007 (EDT)     

:Addendum - BTW, Mr. New was NOT being 'forced into a foreign military'; the UN does not maintain armed forces of its own. He was told off to participate, as a member of his unit, an American military unit, in a UN operation '''supported and endorsed by the government of the United States.''' Whether nor not the US should have been involved in that is not for him to decide, other than as a voter at the polls. [[User:Niwrad|Niwrad]] 04:11, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

:'''Addendum''' - BTW, Mr. New was NOT being 'forced into a foreign military'; the UN does not maintain armed forces of its own. He was told off to participate, as a member of his unit, an American military unit, in a UN operation '''supported and endorsed by the government of the United States.''' Whether nor not the US should have been involved in that is not for him to decide, other than as a voter at the polls. [[User:Niwrad|Niwrad]] 04:11, 18 March 2007 (EDT)