Difference between revisions of "Talk:Religion of Barack Obama"

Revision as of 04:28, March 10, 2009

Why are we repeating liberal falsehoods of Newsweek here??? Just a quick glance shows misuse of the word "secular" and the implausible claim that Obama's biological father was an atheist, for starters.--Andy Schlafly 11:55, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Taking a step back, may I suggest that with a proper debunking of their falsehoods, we can show that they don't have much of an argument at all? It's important to not give these falsehoods any sense of validity, but I think such analysis can be done successfully and this would be a strength to the article. -Foxtrot 12:07, 25 February 2009 (EST)

Andrew- The items that I took out were opinions, which clearly goes against your editorial policy. I am undoing your change. This article should be trustworthy and not filled with snark. --Kurt Schroeder 3:59, 25 February 2009 (CST)

This article contains many statements that are purely unsubstantiated opinion. As such the article should be considered factually inaccurate until the issues are resolved. --Kurt Schroeder 11:40, 27 February 2009 (CST)

Try it this way, Kurt: write a complete test article and post it on this talk page first. The main question should be "what is Obama's religion", then provide answers to it. Divide the article in three; the first part provides answers and citations based on his Christianity (if any); the second part likewise for Islam; the third part for his secularism/atheism. Karajou 12:59, 27 February 2009 (EST)

I'm interested in facts, so if you can convince me I'll add them to the article. Please be patient with us. --Ed Poor ^Talk 13:37, 27 February 2009 (EST)

"[correction: "Christian story"? No real Christian refers to the faith that way.]" Statements like this are opinion, and once we start saying "real" Christian we are not only breaking the Conservapedia Commandments, but we're dividing Christians. If there was a link to a person who was reported as saying that, then we could reference it, but even then what good would it serve. There is a difference between truth and snark. --Kschroe 13:45, 27 February 2009 (EST)

So what you are saying is that you won't re-do the article to standards as I suggested above, but will sit and identify what you think is opinion and try to remove only that without facts to back up the removal? Karajou 13:49, 27 February 2009 (EST)

How's This?

The religion of Barack Obama is a hotly debated subject by some people. Despite claiming himself as a Christian, many doubt his claim and look for "secret signs" about his "true religion". Here we shall lay out the cases for the 3 major arguments about Barack's religion: the case for him being either Christian, Muslim, or Agnostic/Atheist.

-Christian-

• Self identifies as a Christian
• Was a member of a Baptist church for over 20 years
• Baptized in the early 1990's
• Married in a Christian church in 1992
• Celebrates the Christian holidays of Easter and Christmas

-Muslim-

• Speaks affectionately of the Muslim faith
• Uses proper Arabic pronunciation of some words
• Was taught the Muslim faith and principals as a child
• His name is Swahili, and has origins in the Arabic language

-Atheist/Agnostic-

• Has not regularly attended any religious service since severing his ties with his former church.
• Is involved in politics, which is in direct opposition to the Bible and Koran.

Is that what you were looking for Karajou? Of course, this is just a stub, much like this article, and can be expanded on. If you want to replace the current article with it, that's fine. Personally, I feel that the article, as it stands, should have an "Essay:" prefix in front of it. ==ShawnJ 00:12, 28 February 2009 (EST)

Something like that, in a "pro/con" sort of fashion. Karajou 00:49, 28 February 2009 (EST)

I think we're getting somewhere. Now, if you'll take the trouble to format it as a table, we can have two columns. The left column, of course, will be the liberal or Democrat perspective, i.e., he's a Christian. The right column will be the conservative or Republican slant, i.e., he's "really" a Muslim.

Each row will cover an aspect such as

• background of grandparents and parents
• religion classes taken in elementary school
• churches attended in Harlem (most a half hour's bike ride from where I'm typing this ;-)
• churches attended as an adult, including notorious statements by bigmouth pastors, and Obama's response to same
• connotations and implications of his name
• public statements about Islam

Sometimes it helps to lay it all out in a chart, for easy reference. I can check with Andy to make sure he has no objections. --Ed Poor ^Talk 11:45, 28 February 2009 (EST)

Take Two

Ok, let's see if I can blend your two suggestions together.

The religion of Barack Obama is a hotly debated subject by some people. Despite claiming himself as a Christian, many doubt his claim and look for "secret signs" about his "true religion". Here we shall lay out the cases for the 3 major arguments about Barack's religion: the case for him being either Christian, Muslim, or Agnostic/Atheist

As before, this table can be expanded upon. I still think, since this article dwells in speculation, it should have the "Essay:" prefix. On a side not, I think my first table ever turned out rather well *pats self on back* --ShawnJ 21:43, 28 February 2009 (EST)

Great work! I apologize for the delayed feedback. Can you help with other similar tables? We cover many issues where each side has a set of arguments that mirror each other. --Ed Poor ^Talk 08:07, 8 March 2009 (EDT)

Some of those points are pretty specious

• Admitted his beliefs may not be the same as some other Christians (Christians don't all agree on everything, do they?)
• Lead pastor has made inflammatory anti-American statements (Irrelevant, really-- Christian and American patriot are not synonyms)
• has not produced any "Baptism record" (So?)
• You don't need to be a [Christian] to celebrate [Christmas and Easter] (no, indeed you don't-- so the holiday point could only count on the pro side if his observance is religious-- otherwise, it's irrelevant to either side.)
• I don't think the bit about involvement in politics being counter to the Bible and Koran is especially helpful-- or at least, it's putting a very broad brush into the tar. Pepperlynn 00:28, 10 March 2009 (EDT)