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moved discussion
[[User:RianB|RMBchillin]] 16:28, 15 December 2010 (EST)
[[User:RianB|RMBchillin]] 16:28, 15 December 2010 (EST)
==Andromeda galaxy (cont.)==
:''Moved fro [[ta;l/Aschlafly]]
My take on this is pretty simple. As a matter of ''distance'' between here and there, ''billions of light years'' are appropriate; if science says that the Andromeda Galaxy is 2.5 million light years away from earth, then that's fine. If there are other galaxies measured in terms of "billions" of light years away, that's also fine. However, if they say it ''proves'' that the universe is billions of years old as a result of their measurements, then there is a problem. God created the heavens and the earth in six days, but He created the light first, and that includes all of that light between earth and all of those stars and galaxies all those billions of light years away. That light was put there instantaneously. [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 09:27, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:Depending on whether this discussion goes down that route, maybe this should be moved to [[Talk:Starlight problem]] since at the very least Kara's post goes that way. I won't get involved for more or less obvious reasons, but AiG gives a very good [http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove reply] to the "created light in-transit" argument at least:
::Some Christians have proposed that God created the beams of light from distant stars already on their way to the earth. After all, Adam didn’t need any time to grow from a baby because he was made as an adult. Likewise, it is argued that the universe was made mature, and so perhaps the light was created in-transit. Of course, the universe was indeed made to function right from the first week, and many aspects of it were indeed created “mature.” The only problem with assuming that the light was created in-transit is that we see things happen in space. For example, we see stars change brightness and move. Sometimes we see stars explode. We see these things because their light has reached us.
::But if God created the light beams already on their way, then that means none of the events we see in space (beyond a distance of 6,000 light-years) actually happened. It would mean that those exploding stars never exploded or existed; God merely painted pictures of these fictional events. It seems uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this.
:I'll leave it at that. The [[Starlight problem]] article could use a once-over to say the least, though. There are plenty of sources and developments available, even when you only focus on pro-Creationist ones. --[[User:Sid 3050|Sid 3050]] 09:56, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:: The [[Starlight problem]] is a puzzle for both [[atheistic]] and [[biblical]] views. Actually, it's a bigger problem for atheistic views, because those views cannot accommodate the explanation that some of the light in the sky is show for people on earth. That show would presumably include some special effects as referenced by the AiG quote above.
:: I'm fine with moving this discussion to [[Talk:Starlight problem]] if preferred.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 10:34, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::The point I was trying to make is the same as Karajou's. ''Distance'' is not debatable whereas time is. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 16:33, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
::::Distance is debatable too, because it relies on some unverifiable assumptions.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:39, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
::::Just as a quick aside, Andy I am curious about this statement: ''the explanation that some of the light in the sky is show for people on earth. That show would presumably include some special effects''. Can you clarify for me? I don't understand what you mean. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 17:22, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::I have a question about your statement too. In short, if God puts lights in the Heaven's for the entertainment of Mankind - a beautifully frivolous act - why would he not do other actions for Mankind of similarly beautiful yet frivolous intent - such as save the victims of 9/11, prevent Hurricane Katrina, prevent the Tsunami of Japan or any of the other natural and unnatural calamities to befall Mankind? It is illogical to say he would do one, but not the other, and I can't figure out if it's tautological or not? [[User:GennaS|GennaS]] 17:56, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::Fireworks shows are not evidence of distant stars. Part of what we see could be merely a light show in the sky.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 17:39, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::OK, so a supernova could be interpreted as action for man to enjoy and wonder at? I don't mean to be argumentative, just curious. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]]
:::::::The [[starlight problem]] superficially suggests distances too far for '''''any''''' theory, biblical or atheistic. To make sense of it, one should consider that apparent distance may be part of the show - like the appearance of depth in great works of art, such as the [[Mona Lisa]]. Surely the landscape in the background of that painting is not really located as it appears.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 21:00, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::But the starlight problem isn't a problem for atheistic theories. Isn't it? Don't they just say "x galaxy is at y distance hence the universe is z old"? [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 21:33, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::::: Doesn't that imply, as the AiG quote above says, that God is creating an illusion and deceiving human beings? That doesn't sound like God. --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 21:12, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::I don't think it suggests god is making an illusion. Its only deceiving if you expect the universe to be billions of years old. If you reconcile it being 6000 then it is just gods work 9at least, as far as I can tell - I am not fully convinced of creationism yet). [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 21:35, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::I do reject a [[double standard]], and hope you do also. The apparent distances are greater than what what is possible under an atheistic view of the universe too.
::::::::::God isn't deceiving anyone, at least not any more than how Jesus described that the truth is hidden from the intellectually arrogant. Humble logic shows there is no deception ... or any difficulty if distance itself is part of the show.
::::::::::The atheistic explanation of the apparent distance being due to a 4th dimension -- the equivalent of an expanding surface of a balloon rapidly stretching the perceived distance along the surface -- is likewise available to a biblical view.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:10, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::I must say I do like the idea of god creating some of the beauty in the heavens to enrich our lives. one could even suggest that [http://regmedia.co.uk/2009/02/26/helix_nebula.jpg this] is a sign left for us under the "show" interpretation. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 22:17, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::Clearly there is much spectacular beauty in the world in addition to what is needed to make things work. I don't find anything implausible about some distance artwork being included. There is certainly no logical difficulty with distance being part of the work. Great painters have been tried to do likewise.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:51, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Also, a perception of distance can make things look better for reasons other than art. Think about new television sets, HD flat screens for example. They are built so the picture itself has a sense of depth not to improve the art of what is being watched but to improve the clarity of the image. So depth/distance improves clarity as well. P.S. Sorry to continually bother you on your own talk-page but I don't often discuss this sot of thing so I am finding this discussion philosophically fascinating. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 22:58, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::: A painting is clearly a painting. It clearly isn't meant to be taken as a real depiction. However, I don't see how it's clear that the night sky is a work of art and the apparent distances not to be taken seriously. The apparent great distances are causing people to abandon the Biblical view and embrace the [[Big Bang theory]]. Why would God put such a feature in his work of art? And do you have any Biblical proof that God meant the sky to be taken as the same way one takes a painting? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 23:48, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
<---------
Hebrews 2:8 says, ''Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him,'' which may be interpreted to say God created the heavens (i.e. universe) for humans, to be under subjection to humans (or another way, for their entertainment, but it could also mean for human economic exploitation). Genesis 1:28 says, ''Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ...every living thing that moveth upon the earth.'' While God's command to subdue the earth may be interpreted to read God signed onto offshore drilling, this passage is more narrow and specifically references the earth. My overall point is, scientists are no better understanding any of these matters, or the relevence of these questions, than any garden variety bible thumper with an IQ of 49. [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 23:23, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:As interesting as this discussion has been I still believe science on the size of the universe. A logically it ''must'' be mindbogglingly huge as, like I said above, there are 100 billion galaxies! You need an awful lot of space to make them all fit! [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:28, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
::I'm having this same discussion elsewhere, that the infinite universe is fixed and measurable, and current studies are neither facts or truth, but they are science. Seems a pretty round about way to prove a moot point. [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 23:34, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::''that the infinite universe is fixed and measurable, and current studies are neither facts or truth, but they are science'' I don't understand this sentence. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:36, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
::::This references an ongoing discussion at RW that sparked alot of interests. That's about where I left off this afternoon. They even have a unit of measurement ( parsecs ) that relates somehow to lightyears. And the infinitte universe is 13.7 billion lightyears in circumference, diameter, width, or something (using Wikipedia as a source, I guess). It's all science. You can't argue with facts or science (and this is the stuff they stick in innocent childrens heads...). [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 23:47, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::Is that the "anti"-Conservapedia site? I had a look there yesterday. I don't mind discussion with opposing points of view but I dislike the swearing. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 23:51, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::The only opposing views you get there is over the level of abuse and swearing that should be heaped upon their targets. Other than that, it's a pretty closed-minded group of ideologues. [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 23:57, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::::So far I have enjoyed it here so I see no reason to want to go elsewhere for discussion. And I am a christian and I get the idea they are hostile towards religion. [[User:MaxFletcher|MaxFletcher]] 00:00, 22 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::: Where is this? --[[User:MatthewQ|MatthewQ]] 23:58, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::::Well, we don't have indoor plumbing yet, so you're going to have to use the outhouse out back. [[User:RobSmith|Rob Smith]] 00:03, 22 July 2011 (EDT)