278
edits
Changes
→Communism: Note the word ''designed''!
This is a total contradiction:
:'' Politics on the 'left' usually imply taking positions in favor of poor, powerless, or oppressed people. Therefore communists, socialists, and social democrats are usually considered leftists
People living under Communism are not "oppressed". Pul-leez. It will be reverted, but I haven;t a clue how to fix it. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:56, 5 April 2007 (EDT)
That is not a contradiction but a limit of the one dimentional political view. That is why some views use an additional libertarian/authoritarian axis. The communist ideal is in favor of the positions mentioned above, but takes a very authoritarian approach to acheiving those goals. It is by that standard that it becomes oppressive and indeed, much of the reason that communism seems to fight its own ideals.
:Exactly, it's not a contradiction at all: it's evidence that not every political viewpoint lies on a left/right spectrum. Back in 1917 communists and a lot of other kinds of leftist radicals stood up in favor of the poor and the serfs against the Russian nobility. They proceeded to massively screw up their country. So around 1989 a lot of ordinary Russians stood up against oppression by Soviet bureaucrats. The people who overthrew the USSR were:
# leftist?
# rightist?
# none of the above? (Seems to me that's the right answer!!) --[[User:Redblue|Redblue]] 05:55, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
By the way, I made some comments on how to define the political spectrum on the Talk:rightist page. --[[User:Redblue|Redblue]] 05:57, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
==Communism==
::Rob, I studied Communism - both its theoretical components such as [[Marxism]] ( or "[[Marxism-Leninism]]") and its history in countries like [[Soviet Union]], [[China]], [[Cuba]], [[Cambodia]], etc.) I'm not sure what you mean by ''People living under Communism are not "oppressed".'' --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 07:19, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
:::I was talking about this quote,
:::''"Politics on the 'left' ...imply taking positions in favor of ...oppressed people. Therefore communists...are ...considered leftists''
:::This ranks with Holocaust denial in it's offensive quality. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 16:42, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
:Here it is written that leftist "''usually imply challenging the traditional system of a society, by people who believe their economic interests, or personal values, or political rights are not supported by the traditional ruling institutions.''" What about people in a country such as France with a highly regulated economy challenging this on the grounds that it doesn't ''support'' their ''economic interests, or personal values''. Are such people ''leftist''?
:''During the Reign of Terror of the early Enlightenment, the left attempted a dechristianization movement to ...'' The phrase ''the left'' implies ''the left'' are some kind of homgenous mass. All of the left ''attempted a dechristianization movement''? (simply read the linked article [[Enlightenment]]) What relevance the ramblings of an anarchist have I will leave to others to decide. Such edits seem to be what the editor thinks ''leftists'' are and are not an encyclopedic description of ''leftist'' thoughts or tendencies. Such edits contravene [[Conservapedia:Commandments|Commandment]] 5: ''Do not post personal opinion on an encyclopedia entry''.
:[[User:WhatIsG0ing0n|WhatIsG0ing0n]] 15:15, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::What is unfortunate is we reached the pot-of-gold at the end of the leftist rainbow in 1989 with the collapse of Communism. Now we see all these definitions are problematic, but certain editors wish to hold to them. So they just need to be balanced with the factual record of leftist accomplishments. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 15:31, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::Are you trying to say '''all''' ''leftists'' supported communism? As a consequence do you think this should be reflected in the article?
:::[[User:WhatIsG0ing0n|WhatIsG0ing0n]] 05:57, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
::::That is dependent upon which timeframe or era you are discussing. As we've stated, the term has been redefined several times/ [[User:RobS|RobS]] 12:45, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
::I Made a tentative edit which makes a timeframe irrelevant.
::[[User:WhatIsG0ing0n|WhatIsG0ing0n]] 13:41, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:[[User:RobS|RobS]] reverted it before I had taken my finger of the ''save page'' button.
::I thought this definition:
:::The term '''Leftist'' refers to someone on the 'left' side of the [[political spectrum]] who generally supports varying degrees of social or political or economic change designed to promote the public welfare, variously in the guises of social democracy, or liberalism, the several strains of socialism and communism. It may also be applied to those or who oppose right-wing politics.
::was somewhat better than:
:::The term '''Leftist''' refers to someone on the 'left' side of the [[political spectrum]]. Politics on the 'left' usually imply challenging the traditional system of a society, by people who believe their economic interests, or personal values, or political rights are not supported by the traditional ruling institutions. Of course, it is obvious that there is not just one dimension of political thought, so that people can unambiguously be classified as 'right' or 'left'. Nonetheless, the left/right description of the [[political spectrum theory]] still has wide currency.
::What can others add, what do they think?
::[[User:WhatIsG0ing0n|WhatIsG0ing0n]] 14:03, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:::''change designed to promote the public welfare''
::::That [[leftist]] utopia, [[North Korea]] is "designed to promote the public welfare"? you will probably get an arguement there. And North Korea, beginning with the founding of the regime, or its state and condition today, can hardly be described as "conservative", or "right-wing". [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:10, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
::Did you actually read ''change designed to promote the public welfare''? Note the word ''designed''. There is no implication in the sentence that the ''design'' will actually succeed. [[Kim Jong Il]] may weel believe his ''leftismness'' is ''designed to promote the public welfare'' - I belive it won't succeed.
::George Bush is following a strategy ''designed'' to defeat global terrorism. Discuss.
::[[User:WhatIsG0ing0n|WhatIsG0ing0n]] 14:19, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:::I think that the term ''leftist'' is so impossibly vague as to be almost meaningless. There is no such thing as an identifiable leftist ideology. Ideologies such as communism, socialism, social democracy and so on may all be "leftist" to some degree, but are different enough from one another to make a collective term such as leftist essentially empty. [[User:AKjeldsen|AKjeldsen]] 14:12, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:'' Politics on the 'left' usually imply taking positions in favor of poor, powerless, or oppressed people. Therefore communists, socialists, and social democrats are usually considered leftists
People living under Communism are not "oppressed". Pul-leez. It will be reverted, but I haven;t a clue how to fix it. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:56, 5 April 2007 (EDT)
That is not a contradiction but a limit of the one dimentional political view. That is why some views use an additional libertarian/authoritarian axis. The communist ideal is in favor of the positions mentioned above, but takes a very authoritarian approach to acheiving those goals. It is by that standard that it becomes oppressive and indeed, much of the reason that communism seems to fight its own ideals.
:Exactly, it's not a contradiction at all: it's evidence that not every political viewpoint lies on a left/right spectrum. Back in 1917 communists and a lot of other kinds of leftist radicals stood up in favor of the poor and the serfs against the Russian nobility. They proceeded to massively screw up their country. So around 1989 a lot of ordinary Russians stood up against oppression by Soviet bureaucrats. The people who overthrew the USSR were:
# leftist?
# rightist?
# none of the above? (Seems to me that's the right answer!!) --[[User:Redblue|Redblue]] 05:55, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
By the way, I made some comments on how to define the political spectrum on the Talk:rightist page. --[[User:Redblue|Redblue]] 05:57, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
==Communism==
::Rob, I studied Communism - both its theoretical components such as [[Marxism]] ( or "[[Marxism-Leninism]]") and its history in countries like [[Soviet Union]], [[China]], [[Cuba]], [[Cambodia]], etc.) I'm not sure what you mean by ''People living under Communism are not "oppressed".'' --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 07:19, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
:::I was talking about this quote,
:::''"Politics on the 'left' ...imply taking positions in favor of ...oppressed people. Therefore communists...are ...considered leftists''
:::This ranks with Holocaust denial in it's offensive quality. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 16:42, 9 April 2007 (EDT)
:Here it is written that leftist "''usually imply challenging the traditional system of a society, by people who believe their economic interests, or personal values, or political rights are not supported by the traditional ruling institutions.''" What about people in a country such as France with a highly regulated economy challenging this on the grounds that it doesn't ''support'' their ''economic interests, or personal values''. Are such people ''leftist''?
:''During the Reign of Terror of the early Enlightenment, the left attempted a dechristianization movement to ...'' The phrase ''the left'' implies ''the left'' are some kind of homgenous mass. All of the left ''attempted a dechristianization movement''? (simply read the linked article [[Enlightenment]]) What relevance the ramblings of an anarchist have I will leave to others to decide. Such edits seem to be what the editor thinks ''leftists'' are and are not an encyclopedic description of ''leftist'' thoughts or tendencies. Such edits contravene [[Conservapedia:Commandments|Commandment]] 5: ''Do not post personal opinion on an encyclopedia entry''.
:[[User:WhatIsG0ing0n|WhatIsG0ing0n]] 15:15, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
::What is unfortunate is we reached the pot-of-gold at the end of the leftist rainbow in 1989 with the collapse of Communism. Now we see all these definitions are problematic, but certain editors wish to hold to them. So they just need to be balanced with the factual record of leftist accomplishments. [[User:RobS|RobS]] 15:31, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
:::Are you trying to say '''all''' ''leftists'' supported communism? As a consequence do you think this should be reflected in the article?
:::[[User:WhatIsG0ing0n|WhatIsG0ing0n]] 05:57, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
::::That is dependent upon which timeframe or era you are discussing. As we've stated, the term has been redefined several times/ [[User:RobS|RobS]] 12:45, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
::I Made a tentative edit which makes a timeframe irrelevant.
::[[User:WhatIsG0ing0n|WhatIsG0ing0n]] 13:41, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:[[User:RobS|RobS]] reverted it before I had taken my finger of the ''save page'' button.
::I thought this definition:
:::The term '''Leftist'' refers to someone on the 'left' side of the [[political spectrum]] who generally supports varying degrees of social or political or economic change designed to promote the public welfare, variously in the guises of social democracy, or liberalism, the several strains of socialism and communism. It may also be applied to those or who oppose right-wing politics.
::was somewhat better than:
:::The term '''Leftist''' refers to someone on the 'left' side of the [[political spectrum]]. Politics on the 'left' usually imply challenging the traditional system of a society, by people who believe their economic interests, or personal values, or political rights are not supported by the traditional ruling institutions. Of course, it is obvious that there is not just one dimension of political thought, so that people can unambiguously be classified as 'right' or 'left'. Nonetheless, the left/right description of the [[political spectrum theory]] still has wide currency.
::What can others add, what do they think?
::[[User:WhatIsG0ing0n|WhatIsG0ing0n]] 14:03, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:::''change designed to promote the public welfare''
::::That [[leftist]] utopia, [[North Korea]] is "designed to promote the public welfare"? you will probably get an arguement there. And North Korea, beginning with the founding of the regime, or its state and condition today, can hardly be described as "conservative", or "right-wing". [[User:RobS|RobS]] 14:10, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
::Did you actually read ''change designed to promote the public welfare''? Note the word ''designed''. There is no implication in the sentence that the ''design'' will actually succeed. [[Kim Jong Il]] may weel believe his ''leftismness'' is ''designed to promote the public welfare'' - I belive it won't succeed.
::George Bush is following a strategy ''designed'' to defeat global terrorism. Discuss.
::[[User:WhatIsG0ing0n|WhatIsG0ing0n]] 14:19, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
:::I think that the term ''leftist'' is so impossibly vague as to be almost meaningless. There is no such thing as an identifiable leftist ideology. Ideologies such as communism, socialism, social democracy and so on may all be "leftist" to some degree, but are different enough from one another to make a collective term such as leftist essentially empty. [[User:AKjeldsen|AKjeldsen]] 14:12, 16 April 2007 (EDT)