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→The Old Left
::::Is it your intention to tell me that you believe there were good big-government progressives? Specifically, do you think the original big-government progressives of the 1900s were "good progressives"? [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 11:48, 5 October 2019 (EDT)
::::Is it your intention to tell me that you believe there were good big-government progressives? Specifically, do you think the original big-government progressives of the 1900s were "good progressives"? [[User:Progressingamerica|Progressingamerica]] ([[User talk:Progressingamerica|talk]]) 11:48, 5 October 2019 (EDT)
:::::I'm saying Progressivism has different shades of meaning since it original popularization of the term c.1882. I've summarized the basic thesis here ([[#CivilDemocratic_Party_service_replaces_Reconstruction_and_the_spoils_system]]) and here ([[Civil_service_system#U.S._civil_service]].
:::::It cannot be understood without a full understanding of the Spoils system and Political patronage (and its potential for rampant corruption), which still exists in many states and municipality. Additionally, it has nothing to do with social policy, other than lifetime bureaucrats attempting to hold onto their jobs and implement social spending programs legislated by elected officials, which itself is a hybrid Spoils system the extends itself past a two year election cycle.
:::::The early progressives would be Cleveland and TR Roosevelt; the middling progressives would be Colonel House, and [[V.I. Lenin]], who introduced the idea of specialized [[technocrat]]s beyond merely non-partisan civil servants (See also [[Wisconsin Idea]] for how this came about).
:::::The Civil War was fought over the notion [[popular sovereignty]] - that a majority of white male voters over 18 could vote to restrict black rights and make slavery legal in any state - and a civil service under the spoils system would enforce it. The Republican party, founded in 1854, was a single issue party that captured the White House and Congress in six years. After the Emancipation Proclamation and 13th Amendment, it had no reason to exist other than to administer the Spoils system in both North and South. Veterans of the Grand Army of the Republic were its beneficiaries. The same old rampant corruption, coupled with post-Civil War violence (i.e. the Ku Klux Klan which was the remnants of the Democratic party and civil service beneficiaries of the Spoils system in the South) made the proper function of civil service and the spoils system impossible. The "Progressive Era" was born, to create a society which people could live in without violence (segregation was a form of "popular sovereignty" and the spoils system that survived on the state level).
:::::In the period from about 1900 to the New Deal, unionization and collective bargaining rights crept into Progressive rhetoric. Here's were socialism - in import from Europe - crept in. After WWII, more specifically the early 1960s, unionization was so widespread and politically powerful, unionization of civil service began. This is where a [[Marxist-Leninist]] form of socialism crept into the civil service (although it had its roots in the New Deal).
:::::Progressivism began as Civil Service reform; it ended with civil servants handing out welfare and food stamps allocated by their paymasters (elected officials) in the name of "compassion" and "fairness" to buy votes and keep blacks down on the farm. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|De Plorabus Unum]]</sup> 13:54, 5 October 2019 (EDT)
==Name Change==
==Name Change==