Changes

::::::::Theism and atheism are both human views on the universe, and as such it is relevant to observe that there are humans that subscribe to theistic old earth view, such a Hindu cosmology, or Christian theistic evolution. It shows that you can combine theism and long ages. [[User:Order|Order]] 02:52, 29 November 2007 (EST)  

::::::::Theism and atheism are both human views on the universe, and as such it is relevant to observe that there are humans that subscribe to theistic old earth view, such a Hindu cosmology, or Christian theistic evolution. It shows that you can combine theism and long ages. [[User:Order|Order]] 02:52, 29 November 2007 (EST)  

::::::::: I think we are going around in circles now.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:06, 29 November 2007 (EST)

::::::::: I think we are going around in circles now.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:06, 29 November 2007 (EST)

::::: The Creator God of the Bible is not able to (a) do things that are logically nonsense, like creating a yellow question, or (b) do things that are against his nature, such as lie or contradict Himself.

::::: The Creator God of the Bible is not able to (a) do things that are logically nonsense, like creating a yellow question, or (b) do things that are against his nature, such as lie or contradict Himself.

::::: The creator God of the Bible is not able to create the Earth 10,000, 100,000, or 100,000,000 years ago, because no such time existed.  Time is part of His creation, so there is no such thing as 10,000 etc. years ago.  The question presupposes that God creates something at a point in time, whereas he actually created time.  Time itself began 6,000 years ago.  It's like asking if God can begin something before it begins.  That's nonsense.

::::: The creator God of the Bible is not able to create the Earth 10,000, 100,000, or 100,000,000 years ago, because no such time existed.  Time is part of His creation, so there is no such thing as 10,000 etc. years ago.  The question presupposes that God creates something at a point in time, whereas he actually created time.  Time itself began 6,000 years ago.  It's like asking if God can begin something before it begins.  That's nonsense.

::::::::Your last question suggests that you think that I am talking about logical paradoxes, but I am not. If he can create time, he should be able to create any amount of time. That's not a paradox. Lets call the beginning of time year 0. He could then decide to have his son arrive 4000 years later, and have us discuss it 6000 years later, and have the world end some short while after it. I guess this is your view of the world, since it is consistent with a literal interpretation of the bible. But since he can create time, he could also create the universe at time 0, then send his son 10.000 years later, and have us discuss it 12.000 years later. It is as logically consistent as the first version. Theist that believe in an old earth believe that a few million years elapsed between the beginning and the birth of his Son. There is nothing illogical about it. And it consistent with a less literal interpretation of the bible. [[User:Order|Order]] 02:52, 29 November 2007 (EST)

::::::::Your last question suggests that you think that I am talking about logical paradoxes, but I am not. If he can create time, he should be able to create any amount of time. That's not a paradox. Lets call the beginning of time year 0. He could then decide to have his son arrive 4000 years later, and have us discuss it 6000 years later, and have the world end some short while after it. I guess this is your view of the world, since it is consistent with a literal interpretation of the bible. But since he can create time, he could also create the universe at time 0, then send his son 10.000 years later, and have us discuss it 12.000 years later. It is as logically consistent as the first version. Theist that believe in an old earth believe that a few million years elapsed between the beginning and the birth of his Son. There is nothing illogical about it. And it consistent with a less literal interpretation of the bible. [[User:Order|Order]] 02:52, 29 November 2007 (EST)

::::::::: I didn't think that you ''intended'' it to be a logical paradox; but that's what it amounted to, given that we are not really talking about hypotheticals, but history.  Yes, He could have had us discussing it 12,000 years after the year zero, but we are not at the year zero trying to determine when we might discuss it, but at the year 2007 AD discussing whether, given what we know, creation could have been 12,000 years ago.  It is not "consistent with a less literal interpretation of the bible", any more than "go" is consistent with "stop".  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:06, 29 November 2007 (EST)

::::::::: I didn't think that you ''intended'' it to be a logical paradox; but that's what it amounted to, given that we are not really talking about hypotheticals, but history.  Yes, He could have had us discussing it 12,000 years after the year zero, but we are not at the year zero trying to determine when we might discuss it, but at the year 2007 AD discussing whether, given what we know, creation could have been 12,000 years ago.  It is not "consistent with a less literal interpretation of the bible", any more than "go" is consistent with "stop".  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:06, 29 November 2007 (EST)

::::: The real question, therefore, is essentially what He ''did'' do, or more specifically, can the evidence be understood as Him creating everything (including time) billions of years ago.  The biblical answer is a definite "no", and the true scientific answer is "this is beyond the realm of science, because it's history and not observable, testable, nor repeatable".  So with one answer "no" and the other a non-answer, there's no "yes" there at all.

::::: The real question, therefore, is essentially what He ''did'' do, or more specifically, can the evidence be understood as Him creating everything (including time) billions of years ago.  The biblical answer is a definite "no", and the true scientific answer is "this is beyond the realm of science, because it's history and not observable, testable, nor repeatable".  So with one answer "no" and the other a non-answer, there's no "yes" there at all.

::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 07:56, 28 November 2007 (EST)

::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 07:56, 28 November 2007 (EST)

::::::::Welcome to my time machine. Lean back and look out of the window. The tree as you see it, doesn't exist anymore, it existed a fraction of a fraction of a second ago. If thats not cool for you, put on your sun glasses and look into the sun. You see as the sun was 8 minutes ago. {{unsigned|Order}}

::::::::Welcome to my time machine. Lean back and look out of the window. The tree as you see it, doesn't exist anymore, it existed a fraction of a fraction of a second ago. If thats not cool for you, put on your sun glasses and look into the sun. You see as the sun was 8 minutes ago. {{unsigned|Order}}

::::::::: Even though the light has taken a moment to arrive, we are still observing in the ''present'' within any meaningful understanding of the word.  That sort of answer will not allow me to see what you were doing yesterday, let alone things like dinosaurs turning into birds 65 million years ago.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:06, 29 November 2007 (EST)

::::::::: Even though the light has taken a moment to arrive, we are still observing in the ''present'' within any meaningful understanding of the word.  That sort of answer will not allow me to see what you were doing yesterday, let alone things like dinosaurs turning into birds 65 million years ago.  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:06, 29 November 2007 (EST)

::::::: The biblical answer depends on what the Bible actually says.  If you are driving and encounter a "stop" sign, do you argue with the policeman that what it means depends on how you interpret it?  Or do you recognise that it means that you are to stop?

::::::: The biblical answer depends on what the Bible actually says.  If you are driving and encounter a "stop" sign, do you argue with the policeman that what it means depends on how you interpret it?  Or do you recognise that it means that you are to stop?

::::::: You are restating your opinion that whether or not long ages are atheistic depends on the correlation between beliefs.  I have a different opinion, and you are simply restating yours rather than justifying it.  Despite me pointing it out, you are still ignoring the distinction between theism and belief in the Bible.  You ''cannot'' combine an old-world view and belief in the Bible and remain consistent.  Many people do combine the two, but they are not being consistent.

::::::: You are restating your opinion that whether or not long ages are atheistic depends on the correlation between beliefs.  I have a different opinion, and you are simply restating yours rather than justifying it.  Despite me pointing it out, you are still ignoring the distinction between theism and belief in the Bible.  You ''cannot'' combine an old-world view and belief in the Bible and remain consistent.  Many people do combine the two, but they are not being consistent.

How do you see a seed spring? Or how do you see the tide? Or how do you see the change in fashion?  [[User:Order|Order]] 02:52, 29 November 2007 (EST)

How do you see a seed spring? Or how do you see the tide? Or how do you see the change in fashion?  [[User:Order|Order]] 02:52, 29 November 2007 (EST)

: By observing them as they are happening.  Your point?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:06, 29 November 2007 (EST)

: By observing them as they are happening.  Your point?  [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 04:06, 29 November 2007 (EST)

==Tides and the earth-moon distance==

==Tides and the earth-moon distance==