Changes

:::::::::::::: Yes, I only treat people morally because of God.  Because without Him there is no basis for doing so.  That is why Christians throughout history have been responsible for starting hospitals, schools, orphanages, charities, welfare organisations, for abolishing slavery, etc. etc., and no other religion, including atheism, has made anything like the contribution to society that Christianity has.  Because Christianity teaches that people have worth, because they are created in God's image.  Non Christians have no such teaching, with the results that they have done relatively little to advance society.[http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1581/] [http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4932/] [http://www.creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/tj/j20_3/j20_3_26-28.pdf].

:::::::::::::: Yes, I only treat people morally because of God.  Because without Him there is no basis for doing so.  That is why Christians throughout history have been responsible for starting hospitals, schools, orphanages, charities, welfare organisations, for abolishing slavery, etc. etc., and no other religion, including atheism, has made anything like the contribution to society that Christianity has.  Because Christianity teaches that people have worth, because they are created in God's image.  Non Christians have no such teaching, with the results that they have done relatively little to advance society.[http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/1581/] [http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4932/] [http://www.creationontheweb.com/images/pdfs/tj/j20_3/j20_3_26-28.pdf].

:::::::::::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:15, 21 January 2008 (EST)

:::::::::::::: [[User:Philip J. Rayment|Philip J. Rayment]] 09:15, 21 January 2008 (EST)

::::::::::::: So even missionaries did look for things in common, that is indeed encouraging, but I wouldn't have expected otherwise. Because that is how people connect, and that is actually the basis of the golden rule, that you recognize something of yourself in the other. And that is something most humans have in common, even if they don't share similar myths. And indeed, it is probably no surprise that people that grow up in pre-modern societies recognize something is the stories from other pre-modern societies.  

::::::::::::: So even missionaries did look for things in common, that is indeed encouraging, but I wouldn't have expected otherwise. Because that is how people connect, and that is actually the basis of the golden rule, that you recognize something of yourself in the other. And that is something most humans have in common, even if they don't share similar myths. And indeed, it is probably no surprise that people that grow up in pre-modern societies recognize something in the stories from other pre-modern societies.  

::::::::::::: How we understand it is not a separate issue. How do you know what the one true god wants? Supposed that it is an interventionist god, and not just some prime mover, or some unexplained natural force. So which is it? Is it the true god who want us to stone obnoxious children at  the gates of the city? That is probably not the true god, you were looking for. Or is it the the true god who finds acceptable for you to sell your daughter into slavery? That is probably not your true god either. What about the true god who wants you to give up all your possessions, and live in poverty? That may not be the one either? Or how about the one true god who wants you to turn the other cheek? Is this the one? There are quite some choices. We know that you think to have the wisdom to chose the correct one, but we can't rely on everybody choosing the right one. Courts do not argue if the offenders interpretation of the bible is right, but if his choices and actions are.  So in the end it is your choice that matters, and you cannot escape making a choice.  

::::::::::::: How we understand it is not a separate issue. How do you know what the one true god wants? Supposed that it is an interventionist god, and not just some prime mover, or some unexplained natural force. So which is it? Is it the true god who want us to stone obnoxious children at  the gates of the city? That is probably not the true god, you were looking for. Or is it the the true god who finds acceptable for you to sell your daughter into slavery? That is probably not your true god either. What about the true god who wants you to give up all your possessions, and live in poverty? That may not be the one either? Or how about the one true god who wants you to turn the other cheek? Is this the one? There are quite some choices. We know that you think to have the wisdom to chose the correct one, but we can't rely on everybody choosing the right one. Courts do not argue if the offenders interpretation of the bible is right, but if his choices and actions are.  So in the end it is your choice that matters, and you cannot escape making a choice.  

:::::::::::::You don't have to follow the golden rule because of what I believe, and that is the beauty of it. You can be dead certain that if your treat other people bad, they will treat you bad, too. No matter what I believe. So rather than basing your morals on a hypothetical, you can base it on something that does actually exist. Sure, the application of golden rule changes as society changes. And that is a good thing, because it encourages discussion about how we want to live our lives, which is in turn the essence of a democracy.

:::::::::::::You don't have to follow the golden rule because of what I believe, and that is the beauty of it. You can be dead certain that if you treat other people bad, they will treat you bad, too. No matter what I believe. So rather than basing your morals on a hypothetical, you can base it on something that does actually exist. Sure, the application of the golden rule changes as society changes. And that is a good thing, because it encourages discussion about how we want to live our lives, which is in turn the essence of a democracy.

:::::::::::::I agree Europeans born in Europe have done a lot to advance western society. I am happy to accept that credit. In this context it is a bit a pity that you reject on of the key ideas that emerged during the European enlightenment, namely that of the intrinsic value of humans. But, lets not forget that also other people created orderly and civil societies, and in this globalised world, they have also a lot to contribute and to learn from.  

:::::::::::::I agree Europeans born in Europe have done a lot to advance western society. I am happy to accept that credit. In this context it is a bit a pity that you reject on of the key ideas that emerged during the European enlightenment, namely that of the intrinsic value of humans. But, lets not forget that also other people created orderly and civil societies, and in this globalised world, they have also a lot to contribute and to learn from.  

:::::::::::::In the end, the crucial bit becomes if you accept the golden rule as a guideline or not, and the reason why you accept it is secondary.  This rule should be self-evident, but if your belief in a deity is the only way for you accept it, it serves at least a good purpose.  

:::::::::::::In the end, the crucial bit becomes if you accept the golden rule as a guideline or not, and the reason why you accept it is secondary.  This rule should be self-evident, but if your belief in a deity is the only way for you accept it, your belief serves at least a good purpose.  

:::::::::::::To conclude, I suggest we can cut this discussion short. You do not believe in intrinsic values, and that was what exactly the point I made at the beginning of this discussion. I gave an example for a definition of what is intrinsic wrong, and I am not really surprised that you attack the example. It was actually to be expected that you  try to steer the discussion on a tangent when you asked for an example. But I hadn't expected that you struggle with the golden rule itself. [[User:Order|Order]] 10:39, 21 January 2008 (EST)     

:::::::::::::To conclude, I suggest we can cut this discussion short. You do not believe in intrinsic values, and that was what exactly the point I made at the beginning of this discussion. I gave an example for a definition of what is intrinsic wrong, and I am not really surprised that you attack the example. It was actually to be expected that you  try to steer the discussion on a tangent when you asked for an example. But I hadn't expected that you struggle with the golden rule itself. [[User:Order|Order]] 10:39, 21 January 2008 (EST)     

:Um, dude.  ''You blocked yourself for your actions.''  That's like a deputy locking himself up with the jail key for shooting a roomful of innocent people to catch a suspected jaywalker. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:22, 31 December 2007 (EST)

:Um, dude.  ''You blocked yourself for your actions.''  That's like a deputy locking himself up with the jail key for shooting a roomful of innocent people to catch a suspected jaywalker. [[User:Jinxmchue|Jinxmchue]] 23:22, 31 December 2007 (EST)