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Debate:Grave errors/inconsistencies in the Bible make literal translation worthless. (view source)
Revision as of 21:48, May 8, 2008
, 21:48, May 8, 2008→Two accounts of creation - the Bible contradicts itself in the first chapters of the first book
Do you consider yourself a Christian? If so, the think about this. Christ says that He is "the way, the TRUTH and the life." (John 14:6) And, He says that He alone reveals the Father (Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22). So if Jesus is the Truth, and He alone reveals the Father, then how do you find God? Only through Jesus. No one comes to the Father but through Him. (John 14:6). You have to go through Jesus. And where is Jesus revealed? In the Bible. Only the Bible can teach about Christ. So logically, you have to go through the Bible if you want to find the truth, Jesus, and want to find God. [[User:Ultimahero|Ultimahero]] 23:51, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
Do you consider yourself a Christian? If so, the think about this. Christ says that He is "the way, the TRUTH and the life." (John 14:6) And, He says that He alone reveals the Father (Matthew 11:27, Luke 10:22). So if Jesus is the Truth, and He alone reveals the Father, then how do you find God? Only through Jesus. No one comes to the Father but through Him. (John 14:6). You have to go through Jesus. And where is Jesus revealed? In the Bible. Only the Bible can teach about Christ. So logically, you have to go through the Bible if you want to find the truth, Jesus, and want to find God. [[User:Ultimahero|Ultimahero]] 23:51, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
:...but that's precisely it. Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The Bible is not the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The Old Testament is not the Way, the Truth, and the Life. The Bible is valuable, but it is a starting point--not an end. The Pharisees and Saducees were quite proud of their learning and knowledge of Scripture, but their ability to quote the law of the Old Testament did not make them holy; if anything, it pulled them away from God, for it made them prideful.
:Consider the number of Christians throughout history who have lived and died without ever reading a single word in the Bible. Consider the fact that the early Christians dealt with such fragments of Scripture as they could find; and that although the canon was established by the fourth century AD (and much of it was generally accepted by the third,) Bibles with significant variations in text would continue to be circulated and used for many, many years past this point. The Wycliffe Bible springs to mind, as do the (comparatively recent) examples of Bibles containing the Apocrypha.
:How, then, were those early Christians brought to the Word? Through the witness of Christians, most of whom had ''also'' never read the Bible. The conclusion, I think, is inescapable: while the Bible is important, it is entirely possible to come to salvation without it; the Gospel was meant to be spread through witness. Christ commanded His followers to go forth and spread his Word actively. I believe that that would have happened regardless of the establishment of canon, and regardless of the development of the printing press.
:While you assert that the fathers of the early Church would be able to select which books were and were not canonical and inspired with accuracy, I think that's by no means certain. Consider the huge docrtinal schisms of the early church over such fundamental issues as whether Christ was God or Man and the nature of the Trinity. There was a great deal of uncertainty as to the meaning of God's revealed Word in the early church.
:Moreover, I think some of their choices remain questionable to this day. The book of Enoch is rejected as part of the canon, but it's explicitly quoted in Jude 1:14-1:15. Those responsible for establishing the canon concluded that Enoch was probably not the author, even though Jude clearly says that those were Enoch's words, and even though many of the early church fathers considered it a prophetic text and inspired of God. If Jude is inerrant Scripture, and Jude clearly says that the words of Enoch as referenced in Enoch 1 were prophetic, then was the early church truly right to exclude it from the canon?
:As to the subject of what is literal and what is figurative, it's important to bear a number of things in mind. Languages change over time, and figurative language is especially susceptible to this. If I say "Hold your horses" to a group of friends today, it is clearly understood as a metaphor for "Be patient." Thus, it's possible and even likely to miss metaphors due to a lack of shared cultural context.
:Even a few hundred years ago, such an injunction would have been taken as a literal command. Mastery of idiom in the modern version of a language does not guarantee mastery of idiom in the ancient version. Consider how much difficulty the typical English speaker would have with the comparatively recent writings of Geoffrey Chaucer, for instance. Scholars can, by using historical accounts, arrive at a reasonably accurate understanding of such language, but it's still an approximation.
:I have faith in God and in Christ. I do not have as much faith in the ability of man to know His will infallibly; even if the original authors of Scripture were inspired of God and incapable of error (a position which I acknowledge can be derived from Scripture,) I remain skeptical that subsequent generations were similarly infallible in their decisions concerning these writings, and that those of us alive today are infallible in our ability to interpret His Word. Minds far better than mine have misinterpreted the Bible in the past, and so been led to erroneous conclusions about the nature of the universe; Martin Luther believed in the firmament, for instance. If the finest minds of the Church could and did make errors of comprehension, I consider it prideful in the extreme to believe that such errors cannot occur today.
--[[User:Benp|Benp]] 17:48, 8 May 2008 (EDT)