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Talk:Counterexamples to Evolution (view source)
Revision as of 17:49, May 14, 2011
, 17:49, May 14, 2011→Objection
:Pick your very best arguments against what you think are the weakest counterexamples, and let's discuss them. If those arguments fail, then we won't have to waste time addressing the weaker arguments.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:44, 13 May 2011 (EDT)
:Pick your very best arguments against what you think are the weakest counterexamples, and let's discuss them. If those arguments fail, then we won't have to waste time addressing the weaker arguments.--[[User:Aschlafly|Andy Schlafly]] 22:44, 13 May 2011 (EDT)
::To save space, I’ve assigned a letter to each category so that it can be matched with a specific numeric point within each category. “Logical Examples” is A, “Lack of Mechanism” B, and so on. I’ve tried to skip ones that have an extremely long explanation or require several paragraphs of background. None the less, these are some of the best examples.
A1- We have to consider that we are causing the extinction of many species by our own actions. This point also neglects the fact that many more species are flourishing with our influence.
A2- Humans have incredible genetic diversity within our own species. This point denotes a lack of understanding of genetics. For instance, certain parts of the European population have a mutation in the CCR-5 receptor gene as a result of their exposure to diseases like the Black Death that renders them extremely resistant to HIV. This mutation is found where populations had a high rate of exposure to the Black Death and nowhere else.
A4- Patently false, see the aforementioned CCR-5 receptor gene mutation.
A6- This misses a big part of evolutionary biology; gender does not equal species. The two genders of the same species will not evolve apart from each other unless they are part of two separate groups of the same species that are not allowed to genetically mix for several hundred generations.
A7- Yes, there are. Mules are the infertile off-spring of a male donkey and a female horse. Donkeys and horses are both members of the Equidae family, both species having evolved from a common ancestor, the Hyracotherium, which lived during the early Eocene period. Horses and donkeys can no longer produce viable offspring and thus the process of separate lines of evolution have rendered these animals too genetically dissimilar to have viable offspring. This is the process of speciation.
A8- Such egocentric behaviors benefit the INDIVIDUAL human life; lying and stealing gain more for the individual and increase the chances it will survive. Additionally, psychopathy is an aberration in psychological development, not a trait.
A9- The listed organisms haven’t changed greatly because they have had little to no evolutionary pressure to do so. They are well adapted to their environment and thus natural selection is not doing much to push the species. The process of speciation happens fastest in a high-stress environment where a species has to react or face extinction.
B2- “Information” is not a scientific term nor is it defined on this website (in a scientific context).
B5 and 6- This is entirely subjective and as such does not have a place in an objective theory or critique of a theory. Additionally, the theory of evolution does not have to nor does it purport to explain aesthetics. Evolution explains the diversity of life. This point demonstrates a lack of understanding regarding evolutionary theory.
B7- This shows absolutely nothing. If it’s like clockwork, then why is it 13 years for some parts of the world and 17 for other parts?
B9- “Information” is not a scientific term nor is it defined on this website (in a scientific context).
B11- Symbiotic relationships increase the chances that a pair or group of organisms will survive because of cooperative effort. Such set-ups are more resistant to natural selection and as such are favored when natural selection applies pressure to the populations
B12- Complete speculation, we have no way of determining if other animals lack consciousness. We infer this from our lack of ability to communicate, but we cannot objectively demonstrate that we are the only creatures with a consciousness.
B13- Speculation again, additionally evolution does not predict nor explain the presence of higher intellectual functions in humans.
B14- The processes that such parasites go through are well understood and documented
http://knol.google.com/k/the-aspidogastrea-a-parasitological-model-i#
B16- The temperature of the ambient water drops as you approach the poles, as such, a fish who gradually developed the genes for enduring in colder water could progress further north or south until they could withstand very cold temperatures. This process is well known and documented
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11181960
B18- In many cases, we can look to the natural world for causes. Darwin’s famous finches are an example, many different subspecies of the same parent species evolved when several populations were established on the islands by birds blown onto the island by storms.
C1- Evolution does not nor does it purport to explain the behavior of jellyfish.
C3- The subjective human idea of what is “good” and “bad” are not factors in evolution.
C4- I cannot speak for Dawkins, but the occurrence of things like altruism in animals is fairly well understood. Altruistic behavior is a way for social groups to reinforce their bonds and improve the cohesion of the group itself. This behavior has been well documented among apes who will often give gifts to other apes in the same group for future favors. The behavior is never (to my knowledge) displayed in non-social species.
C5- A mutation is not necessarily bad. A person’s genome has something like 10,000 mutations in it before that person is even born and most of us do pretty well.
C6- Some of us do have an immunity (or nearly so) to the HIV due to our exposure to the Black Death in our genetic past. HIV is not virulent enough to clear large sections of our population who aren’t immune. With a disease like the Black Death, it left enough people with immunity alive to reproduce and successfully repopulate, creating a population that was resistant or immune to the disease that caused the Black Death. At least until it returned after mutating.
C7- Traits are only selected out of a population if there is evolutionary pressure to do so. There has been little to no pressure on the human population to eradicate schizophrenia. If we were to start executing all schizophrenic people, then we’d see our instances of people developing the disorder drop after several dozen successive generations because the genes that make us susceptible to schizophrenia would not be passed on. And we do have a fairly good idea that genetics plays a big role in determining the manifesting of schizophrenia.
C8- I only decreases the likelihood of finding a mate because we make a conscious choice to find it un-attractive. It hasn’t been selected out of our population because most men go bald AFTER they reproduce and the genes have already been passed on.
D1- This quote is un-sourced and the link that goes to support it does not function.
D1- The human body has dozens of vestigial traits that have no current use. We do know what they are used for in other creatures and in apes and we don’t/cant use them in that way. The goosebump response is a prime example, goosebumps form on our skin when scared to make us look bigger, but no human has enough body hair to make this happen anymore. We also don’t have enough body hair for it to provide insulation. There are several muscles and muscle groups that serve no function in the human body, The human eye has something called the plica semilunaris, a musculature remnant of the nictitating membrane that many other creatures have (and we do not).
D2- Junk DNA is a well-documented phenomenon in the human genome and is detailed in even the most elementary book on the subject of genetics.
D3- This point demonstrates a lack of understanding about how evolution works. Evolution does not “design”. It merely allows natural selection to remove organisms that are less suited for their environment such that their genetic information is not passed on. The human spine and sinus system are not fatal in their current configuration and as such there is no evolutionary pressure to stop people from passing on the genes for the setup of these systems.
D4- Very often our teeth ARE over-crowded and often some must be manually removed.
D5- This point does not take into account the mountain of environmental factors that contribute towards this trend.
D7- Drug-resistant pathogens are a perfect example of natural selection. In the case of MRSA, some of the Staphylococcus aureus bacteria have developed with a structure that renders them immune or resistant to beta-lactam antibiotics. The bacteria that are not resistant to the antibiotics die when antibiotics are introduced into their environment and there is suddenly a gap left that the resistant strain quickly multiplies to fill.
E1- Both toothed and baleen whales can trace their ancestral divergence to the Aetiocetus, the precursor to modern whales and dolphins. Interestingly enough, the Aetiocetus is an example of a transitional fossil.
E2- Incorrect, we can trace the lineage of horses back to the Family Palaeotheriidae, which gave rise to modern horses, tapirs, and rhinoceros. Additionally, simply because a specific fossil has not been found yet, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. We have basal forms of horses and we have fossilized horse ancestors, so logically there IS an intermediary fossil.
E3- Literally thousands of transitional fossils have been found.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
E4- The process is well documented
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK28332/
E7- Right here http://www.evolution-textbook.org/content/free/figures/25_EVOW_Art/01_EVOW_CH25.jpg
F1- Raptorex’s validity has been called into question by the scientific community and (last I was aware) there were questions being raised if Raptorex wasn’t simply a baby Tyrannosaurs.
G4- There are several examples of animals with wings that are also flightless but none the less are able to use their wings for other purposes.
G5- This staple argument of irreducible complexity has been thoroughly demolished
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQQ7ubVIqo4
H1- Citing yourself is very VERY poor form.
H2- This is speculation and as such does not belong in an objective article.
H3- The link for this is extremely poor, no names are provided to check the source and the scientist who allegedly announced this is un-named. It is a poorly sourced statement and should be removed.
H4- Speculation again. We have no way of determining if other animals do or do not have religion.
H5- “Kind” is not a scientific term
H6- Evolution does not purport to explain the aesthetic nature of kidneys.
H7- Our bodies require regular rest and it makes the most sense for an organism built the way we are to rest when it is least able to defend itself; at night. Humans that rested during the day and hunted at night would have been selected against and the genomes that did not contain the genes for a circadian rhythm cycle would have died out.
H8- Advancing evolution does not require one to be anti-religious. The theory of evolution does not deal with religion whatsoever
This article is extremely poorly written and doesn’t stand up to even the most elementary understanding of the topics involved. It’s evident that the author(s) did not understand evolutionary theory and had a poor understanding of genetics as well as biology and other associated sciences. This article has no place on an objective website and should be removed or severely modified. --[[User:HarabecW|HarabecW]] 13:49, 14 May 2011 (EDT)
== Picture of PZ Myers ==
== Picture of PZ Myers ==